Do you believe in the existence of a Soul ?

February 27, 2006

Question: Do you believe in the existence of the soul? Does this

continue to live infinitely after the death of the body?

Krishnamurti: Most people believe in the existence of the soul in

some form or other. Now you will not understand what I am going to

say if, in defence, you merely oppose it, or quote some authority for

your belief which is cultivated through tradition and fear; nor can

this belief be called intuition when it is only a vague hope.

Illusion divides itself infinitely. The soul is a division, born of

illusion. There is first the body, then there is the soul that

occupies it, and finally there is God or reality: this is how you

have divided life.

Now the limited consciousness of the " I " , is the result of incomplete

actions, and this limited consciousness is creating its own illusions

and is caught in its own ignorance; and when the mind is free from

its own ignorance and illusion, then there is reality, not " you "

becoming that reality.

Please do not accept what I say, but begin to question and understand

how your own belief has come into being. Then you will see how subtly

the mind has divided life. You will begin to understand the

significance of this division, which is a subtle form of egotistic

desire for continuance. As long as this illusion, with all its

subtleties, exists, there cannot be reality.

As this is one of the most controversial subjects and there exists so

much prejudice with regard to it, one has to be very careful not to

be swayed by opinion for or against the idea of the soul. In

understanding reality, this question as to whether there is a soul or

not, will be answered. To understand reality, mind must be utterly

free from the limitation of fear. with its craving for egotistic

continuance.

Question: Is the soul a reality?

Krishnamurti: Again I would ask the audience to listen without

prejudice, without bigotry, to this point. When you talk about

the " soul " , you mean a something between the material and the

spiritual, between body and God. So you have divided life into

matter, spirit, and God. Isn't that so? If I may say this, you who

talk about " soul " , know nothing about it, you are accepting it merely

on authority, or it is based on some hope, on some unfulfilled

longing. You have accepted on authority many fundamental ideas, as

you have accepted " soul " to be a reality.

Please consider what I am going to say, without any prejudice either

in favour of or against the idea of soul, and without any

preconceived ideas, in order to discover what is true. The only

actuality of which we are fully cognizant, with which we have to

concern ourselves, is suffering; we are conscious of that constant

unfulfillment, limitation, incompleteness which causes conflict and

suffering. This consciousness of sorrow is the only actuality from

which you can start, and it is only in understanding the cause of

suffering and being intelligently free from it, that there comes the

ecstasy of reality. When the mind has disentangled itself from all

illusions and hopes, then there is the bliss of reality

Through all this conflict and misery, one feels that there must be a

reality, a God, an infinite intelligence, or whatever one may call

it. That feeling may be merely a reaction from this agony, and

therefore unreal, and so its pursuit must lead to ever increasing

illusions; or it may be the intrinsic desire to discover truth which

cannot be measured or systematized. If we can discover what creates

conflict and who is the creator of sorrow, then in uprooting the

cause of this there can be the true felicity of man. This almost

ceaseless battle, this seemingly unending sorrow, is created by that

limited consciousness which we call the " I " . We have created about

ourselves many false values, false ideals, to which the mind has

become a slave. There is a constant struggle taking place between

these illusions and the present, and there must ever be conflict as

long as these self-protective illusions exist. This conflict creates

in our minds the idea of the particular, the " I " . So from this

limited consciousness arises division as the " I " , the impermanent,

and the " I " , the permanent, the eternal. When the mind is wholly free

from the self-protective illusions and false values which are the

cause of limited consciousness and of its many stupidities, then each

one shall realize for himself whether there is truth or not.

If I merely said there is a soul, I should but add another belief to

your many beliefs. So of what value would it be? Whereas, the only

actuality of which we are conscious is this struggle, this suffering,

this exploitation to which we have become slaves; and in

intelligently freeing ourselves, not escaping from it, we shall

discern the lasting in the transient, the real in the illusion.

May 28, 1935

February 27, 2006

Meet and potatoes for the week to come.

Thank-you Werner!

Patricia

--- Werner Woehr <wwoehr a écrit :

Question: Do you believe in the existence of the soul?

Does this

continue to live infinitely after the death of the

body?

Krishnamurti: Most people believe in the existence of

the soul in

some form or other. Now you will not understand what I

am going to

say if, in defence, you merely oppose it, or quote

some authority for

your belief which is cultivated through tradition and

fear; nor can

this belief be called intuition when it is only a

vague hope.

Illusion divides itself infinitely. The soul is a

division, born of

illusion. There is first the body, then there is the

soul that

occupies it, and finally there is God or reality: this

is how you

have divided life.

Now the limited consciousness of the " I " , is the

result of incomplete

actions, and this limited consciousness is creating

its own illusions

and is caught in its own ignorance; and when the mind

is free from

its own ignorance and illusion, then there is reality,

not " you "

becoming that reality.

Please do not accept what I say, but begin to question

and understand

how your own belief has come into being. Then you will

see how subtly

the mind has divided life. You will begin to

understand the

significance of this division, which is a subtle form

of egotistic

desire for continuance. As long as this illusion, with

all its

subtleties, exists, there cannot be reality.

As this is one of the most controversial subjects and

there exists so

much prejudice with regard to it, one has to be very

careful not to

be swayed by opinion for or against the idea of the

soul. In

understanding reality, this question as to whether

there is a soul or

not, will be answered. To understand reality, mind

must be utterly

free from the limitation of fear. with its craving for

egotistic

continuance.

Question: Is the soul a reality?

Krishnamurti: Again I would ask the audience to listen

without

prejudice, without bigotry, to this point. When you

talk about

the " soul " , you mean a something between the material

and the

spiritual, between body and God. So you have divided

life into

matter, spirit, and God. Isn't that so? If I may say

this, you who

talk about " soul " , know nothing about it, you are

accepting it merely

on authority, or it is based on some hope, on some

unfulfilled

longing. You have accepted on authority many

fundamental ideas, as

you have accepted " soul " to be a reality.

Please consider what I am going to say, without any

prejudice either

in favour of or against the idea of soul, and without

any

preconceived ideas, in order to discover what is true.

The only

actuality of which we are fully cognizant, with which

we have to

concern ourselves, is suffering; we are conscious of

that constant

unfulfillment, limitation, incompleteness which causes

conflict and

suffering. This consciousness of sorrow is the only

actuality from

which you can start, and it is only in understanding

the cause of

suffering and being intelligently free from it, that

there comes the

ecstasy of reality. When the mind has disentangled

itself from all

illusions and hopes, then there is the bliss of

reality

Through all this conflict and misery, one feels that

there must be a

reality, a God, an infinite intelligence, or whatever

one may call

it. That feeling may be merely a reaction from this

agony, and

therefore unreal, and so its pursuit must lead to ever

increasing

illusions; or it may be the intrinsic desire to

discover truth which

cannot be measured or systematized. If we can discover

what creates

conflict and who is the creator of sorrow, then in

uprooting the

cause of this there can be the true felicity of man.

This almost

ceaseless battle, this seemingly unending sorrow, is

created by that

limited consciousness which we call the " I " . We have

created about

ourselves many false values, false ideals, to which

the mind has

become a slave. There is a constant struggle taking

place between

these illusions and the present, and there must ever

be conflict as

long as these self-protective illusions exist. This

conflict creates

in our minds the idea of the particular, the " I " . So

from this

limited consciousness arises division as the " I " , the

impermanent,

and the " I " , the permanent, the eternal. When the mind

is wholly free

from the self-protective illusions and false values

which are the

cause of limited consciousness and of its many

stupidities, then each

one shall realize for himself whether there is truth

or not.

If I merely said there is a soul, I should but add

another belief to

your many beliefs. So of what value would it be?

Whereas, the only

actuality of which we are conscious is this struggle,

this suffering,

this exploitation to which we have become slaves; and

in

intelligently freeing ourselves, not escaping from it,

we shall

discern the lasting in the transient, the real in the

illusion.

May 28, 1935

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February 27, 2006

Thanks for this Werner.

The second question is rather astounding as it shows

the questioner grasped nothing of his reply to the

first question [assuming it is from one continuous

exchange].

Anyone care to weigh in on what he means by " incomplete

actions " when he says:

" Now the limited consciousness of the 'I', is the

result of incomplete actions... "

Bill

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Question: Do you believe in the existence of the soul? Does this

> continue to live infinitely after the death of the body?

>

> Krishnamurti: Most people believe in the existence of the soul in

> some form or other. Now you will not understand what I am going to

> say if, in defence, you merely oppose it, or quote some authority for

> your belief which is cultivated through tradition and fear; nor can

> this belief be called intuition when it is only a vague hope.

>

> Illusion divides itself infinitely. The soul is a division, born of

> illusion. There is first the body, then there is the soul that

> occupies it, and finally there is God or reality: this is how you

> have divided life.

>

> Now the limited consciousness of the " I " , is the result of incomplete

> actions, and this limited consciousness is creating its own illusions

> and is caught in its own ignorance; and when the mind is free from

> its own ignorance and illusion, then there is reality, not " you "

> becoming that reality.

>

> Please do not accept what I say, but begin to question and understand

> how your own belief has come into being. Then you will see how subtly

> the mind has divided life. You will begin to understand the

> significance of this division, which is a subtle form of egotistic

> desire for continuance. As long as this illusion, with all its

> subtleties, exists, there cannot be reality.

>

> As this is one of the most controversial subjects and there exists so

> much prejudice with regard to it, one has to be very careful not to

> be swayed by opinion for or against the idea of the soul. In

> understanding reality, this question as to whether there is a soul or

> not, will be answered. To understand reality, mind must be utterly

> free from the limitation of fear. with its craving for egotistic

> continuance.

>

> Question: Is the soul a reality?

>

> Krishnamurti: Again I would ask the audience to listen without

> prejudice, without bigotry, to this point. When you talk about

> the " soul " , you mean a something between the material and the

> spiritual, between body and God. So you have divided life into

> matter, spirit, and God. Isn't that so? If I may say this, you who

> talk about " soul " , know nothing about it, you are accepting it merely

> on authority, or it is based on some hope, on some unfulfilled

> longing. You have accepted on authority many fundamental ideas, as

> you have accepted " soul " to be a reality.

>

> Please consider what I am going to say, without any prejudice either

> in favour of or against the idea of soul, and without any

> preconceived ideas, in order to discover what is true. The only

> actuality of which we are fully cognizant, with which we have to

> concern ourselves, is suffering; we are conscious of that constant

> unfulfillment, limitation, incompleteness which causes conflict and

> suffering. This consciousness of sorrow is the only actuality from

> which you can start, and it is only in understanding the cause of

> suffering and being intelligently free from it, that there comes the

> ecstasy of reality. When the mind has disentangled itself from all

> illusions and hopes, then there is the bliss of reality

>

> Through all this conflict and misery, one feels that there must be a

> reality, a God, an infinite intelligence, or whatever one may call

> it. That feeling may be merely a reaction from this agony, and

> therefore unreal, and so its pursuit must lead to ever increasing

> illusions; or it may be the intrinsic desire to discover truth which

> cannot be measured or systematized. If we can discover what creates

> conflict and who is the creator of sorrow, then in uprooting the

> cause of this there can be the true felicity of man. This almost

> ceaseless battle, this seemingly unending sorrow, is created by that

> limited consciousness which we call the " I " . We have created about

> ourselves many false values, false ideals, to which the mind has

> become a slave. There is a constant struggle taking place between

> these illusions and the present, and there must ever be conflict as

> long as these self-protective illusions exist. This conflict creates

> in our minds the idea of the particular, the " I " . So from this

> limited consciousness arises division as the " I " , the impermanent,

> and the " I " , the permanent, the eternal. When the mind is wholly free

> from the self-protective illusions and false values which are the

> cause of limited consciousness and of its many stupidities, then each

> one shall realize for himself whether there is truth or not.

>

> If I merely said there is a soul, I should but add another belief to

> your many beliefs. So of what value would it be? Whereas, the only

> actuality of which we are conscious is this struggle, this suffering,

> this exploitation to which we have become slaves; and in

> intelligently freeing ourselves, not escaping from it, we shall

> discern the lasting in the transient, the real in the illusion.

>

> May 28, 1935

>

February 27, 2006

Thanks for this Werner.

The second question is rather astounding as it shows

the questioner grasped nothing of his reply to the

first question [assuming it is from one continuous

exchange].

Anyone care to weigh in on what he means by

" incomplete

actions " when he says:

" Now the limited consciousness of the 'I', is the

result of incomplete actions... "

Bill

When there is complete presence given to what is in

front of one`s nose,

Consciousness isn`t divided into distractions,

It is whole, One, and therefore unlimited..

Krishnam. used to say : Use your entire mind, body and

spirit to live your life and there will be no

problems, no division and therefore no conflicts.

It takes a lot of energie to remain in one piece, yet

there are no leaks of energy either.

It takes also a deep mature resilience, because one

finally gives-up the idea to become something.

And I finally understand that it can`t be an effort of

memory that is going to recenter me on this attitude

toward life.

It is more like the movement of a living heart.

Not memory...but awakening...

Maybe attention is also very required on that living

heart.

Patricia

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February 27, 2006

Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote:

>

> Thanks for this Werner.

>

> The second question is rather astounding as it shows

> the questioner grasped nothing of his reply to the

> first question [assuming it is from one continuous

> exchange].

>

> Anyone care to weigh in on what he means by

> " incomplete

> actions " when he says:

> " Now the limited consciousness of the 'I', is the

> result of incomplete actions... "

>

> Bill

>

> When there is complete presence given to what is in

> front of one`s nose,

> Consciousness isn`t divided into distractions,

> It is whole, One, and therefore unlimited..

> Krishnam. used to say : Use your entire mind, body and

> spirit to live your life and there will be no

> problems, no division and therefore no conflicts.

Life is friction....fiction friction.

> It takes a lot of energie to remain in one piece,

Its easy to be one piece........It takes energy to tear things apart..

yet

> there are no leaks of energy either.

> It takes also a deep mature resilience, because one

> finally gives-up the idea to become something.

One 'does' nothing..........ideas fall off easily and naturally with the

understanding

> And I finally understand that it can`t be an effort of

> memory that is going to recenter me on this attitude

> toward life.

There is no me to become recentered....The me is the concept that makes

everything

wobble.

> It is more like the movement of a living heart.

> Not memory...but awakening...

Yes.

> Maybe attention is also very required on that living

> heart.

> Patricia

>

No.

toombaru

February 28, 2006

In a message dated 2/27/2006 3:09:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,

Nisargadatta writes:

" Werner Woehr " <wwoehr