Guest guest Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and this is > precisely > > this volition which makes our world into such a horrible mess. > > > > Len > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a difficult task as > long as > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. This assumption > can be explored > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices are made, we > might find > > that they come from factors over which we never had any control. > We're born > > with certain propensities and into a given environment. Our > choices, from the > > beginning, are based on these factors and our desire which arises > from that > > also. > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to tendencies and > experiences > > over which we never had any control because the choices that led > to them were > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. There is no > independent > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human is an > experiential vehicle > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what is done. This, > of course, > > will terrify ego that wants to control the behavior of others. > > > > Phil > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. The effort to > control. > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like war. > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so conditioned by the > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort but as an > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but it is not the > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the observation of own > impulses to realize that the automatical response is full of fear > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, controlling > response is in fact effortless. > > Len At first, I thought that one could make choices, but looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our life. Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a change into their sensibilities. It is in an effort to have more control in their life, and it creates a different flow and a new sensibilitie. Would you call that worthless? Patricia > ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 In a message dated 3/3/2006 2:14:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 23:13:20 +0100 (CET) OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: (Phil and Len )about choices > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and this is > precisely > > this volition which makes our world into such a horrible mess. > > > > Len > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a difficult task as > long as > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. This assumption > can be explored > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices are made, we > might find > > that they come from factors over which we never had any control. > We're born > > with certain propensities and into a given environment. Our > choices, from the > > beginning, are based on these factors and our desire which arises > from that > > also. > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to tendencies and > experiences > > over which we never had any control because the choices that led > to them were > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. There is no > independent > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human is an > experiential vehicle > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what is done. This, > of course, > > will terrify ego that wants to control the behavior of others. > > > > Phil > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. The effort to > control. > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like war. > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so conditioned by the > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort but as an > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but it is not the > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the observation of own > impulses to realize that the automatical response is full of fear > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, controlling > response is in fact effortless. > > Len At first, I thought that one could make choices, but looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our life. Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a change into their sensibilities. It is in an effort to have more control in their life, and it creates a different flow and a new sensibilitie. Would you call that worthless? Patricia I'm not clear, Patricia. Does your example imply there IS choice? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and > this is > > precisely > > > this volition which makes our world into such a > horrible mess. > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a > difficult task as > > long as > > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. > This assumption > > can be explored > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices > are made, we > > might find > > > that they come from factors over which we never > had any control. > > We're born > > > with certain propensities and into a given > environment. Our > > choices, from the > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > desire which arises > > from that > > > also. > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to > tendencies and > > experiences > > > over which we never had any control because the > choices that led > > to them were > > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. > There is no > > independent > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human > is an > > experiential vehicle > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what > is done. This, > > of course, > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > behavior of others. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. > The effort to > > control. > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like > war. > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so > conditioned by the > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort > but as an > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but > it is not the > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > observation of own > > impulses to realize that the automatical response is > full of fear > > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, > controlling > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > Len > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, but > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call > choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. > According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our > life. > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > change into their sensibilities. > It is in an effort to have more control in their life, > and it creates a different flow and a new > sensibilitie. > Would you call that worthless? > Patricia No, I wouldn´t. I think it´s only natural to want to stop addiction and live a more healthy life. But effort seems often ineffective, especially when it´s about deeper psychological conflicts. We can handle little problems with effort, but on longer term we need something else: the understanding of the nature of conflict and our compulsive efforts to get rid of it rather then to understand it. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and > this is > > precisely > > > this volition which makes our world into such a > horrible mess. > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a > difficult task as > > long as > > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. > This assumption > > can be explored > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices > are made, we > > might find > > > that they come from factors over which we never > had any control. > > We're born > > > with certain propensities and into a given > environment. Our > > choices, from the > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > desire which arises > > from that > > > also. > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to > tendencies and > > experiences > > > over which we never had any control because the > choices that led > > to them were > > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. > There is no > > independent > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human > is an > > experiential vehicle > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what > is done. This, > > of course, > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > behavior of others. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. > The effort to > > control. > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like > war. > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so > conditioned by the > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort > but as an > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but > it is not the > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > observation of own > > impulses to realize that the automatical response is > full of fear > > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, > controlling > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > Len > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, but > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call > choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. > According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our > life. > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > change into their sensibilities. > It is in an effort to have more control in their life, > and it creates a different flow and a new > sensibilitie. > Would you call that worthless? > Patricia No, I wouldn´t. I think it´s only natural to want to stop addiction and live a more healthy life. But effort seems often ineffective, especially when it´s about deeper psychological conflicts. We can handle little problems with effort, but on longer term we need something else: the understanding of the nature of conflict and our compulsive efforts to get rid of it rather then to understand it. Len True! I noticed that we can`t ever change ourselves, we can only disappear a little, and a little more.. Patricia ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:35:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 01:19:53 +0100 (CET) OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: Re: (Phil and Len )about choices --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and > this is > > precisely > > > this volition which makes our world into such a > horrible mess. > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a > difficult task as > > long as > > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. > This assumption > > can be explored > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices > are made, we > > might find > > > that they come from factors over which we never > had any control. > > We're born > > > with certain propensities and into a given > environment. Our > > choices, from the > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > desire which arises > > from that > > > also. > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to > tendencies and > > experiences > > > over which we never had any control because the > choices that led > > to them were > > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. > There is no > > independent > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human > is an > > experiential vehicle > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what > is done. This, > > of course, > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > behavior of others. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. > The effort to > > control. > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like > war. > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so > conditioned by the > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort > but as an > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but > it is not the > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > observation of own > > impulses to realize that the automatical response is > full of fear > > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, > controlling > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > Len > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, but > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call > choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. > According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our > life. > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > change into their sensibilities. > It is in an effort to have more control in their life, > and it creates a different flow and a new > sensibilitie. > Would you call that worthless? > Patricia No, I wouldn´t. I think it´s only natural to want to stop addiction and live a more healthy life. But effort seems often ineffective, especially when it´s about deeper psychological conflicts. We can handle little problems with effort, but on longer term we need something else: the understanding of the nature of conflict and our compulsive efforts to get rid of it rather then to understand it. Len True! I noticed that we can`t ever change ourselves, we can only disappear a little, and a little more.. Patricia When it comes to illusions, changing and disappearing are the same thing, eh? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:35:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 00:12:02 -0000 " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Re: (Phil and Len )about choices Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and > this is > > precisely > > > this volition which makes our world into such a > horrible mess. > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a > difficult task as > > long as > > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. > This assumption > > can be explored > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices > are made, we > > might find > > > that they come from factors over which we never > had any control. > > We're born > > > with certain propensities and into a given > environment. Our > > choices, from the > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > desire which arises > > from that > > > also. > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to > tendencies and > > experiences > > > over which we never had any control because the > choices that led > > to them were > > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. > There is no > > independent > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human > is an > > experiential vehicle > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what > is done. This, > > of course, > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > behavior of others. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. > The effort to > > control. > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like > war. > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so > conditioned by the > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort > but as an > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but > it is not the > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > observation of own > > impulses to realize that the automatical response is > full of fear > > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, > controlling > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > Len > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, but > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call > choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. > According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our > life. > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > change into their sensibilities. > It is in an effort to have more control in their life, > and it creates a different flow and a new > sensibilitie. > Would you call that worthless? > Patricia No, I wouldn´t. I think it´s only natural to want to stop addiction and live a more healthy life. But effort seems often ineffective, especially when it´s about deeper psychological conflicts. We can handle little problems with effort, but on longer term we need something else: the understanding of the nature of conflict and our compulsive efforts to get rid of it rather then to understand it. Len True. Ultimately, understanding is the solution to all that nonsense, which means truth. As cliche as it is, it's still true. The truth shall set us free. Ego nonsense can and will hide anywhere, except in the light of day. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:35:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:35:25 +0100 (CET) OConnor Patricia <gdtige Re: (Phil and Len )about choices --- ADHHUB a écrit : In a message dated 3/3/2006 2:14:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 23:13:20 +0100 (CET) OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: (Phil and Len )about choices > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and this is > precisely > > this volition which makes our world into such a horrible mess. > > > > Len > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a difficult task as > long as > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. This assumption > can be explored > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices are made, we > might find > > that they come from factors over which we never had any control. > We're born > > with certain propensities and into a given environment. Our > choices, from the > > beginning, are based on these factors and our desire which arises > from that > > also. > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to tendencies and > experiences > > over which we never had any control because the choices that led > to them were > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. There is no > independent > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human is an > experiential vehicle > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what is done. This, > of course, > > will terrify ego that wants to control the behavior of others. > > > > Phil > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. The effort to > control. > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like war. > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so conditioned by the > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort but as an > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but it is not the > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the observation of own > impulses to realize that the automatical response is full of fear > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, controlling > response is in fact effortless. > > Len At first, I thought that one could make choices, but looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our life. Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a change into their sensibilities. It is in an effort to have more control in their life, and it creates a different flow and a new sensibilitie. Would you call that worthless? Patricia I'm not clear, Patricia. Does your example imply there IS choice? Phil ............................................................................... .............................. well, I personnally don`t feel that I have choices, because in a way, even as a small kid, I have recognize a certain flow, a long time ago, and that flow was loud enough to not be bypassed. so far. but I wonder if it is always like that for everybody.??? That murmure in my heart haas been at the center of any of my endeavors, and what a life it has been.. greetings and a warm w-end to you, Patricia Interesting. No, I always assumed I had choice until I started looking very closely. Now, I don't concern myself with choice and just play the experience game. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 --- ADHHUB a écrit : In a message dated 3/3/2006 2:14:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 23:13:20 +0100 (CET) OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: (Phil and Len )about choices > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and this is > precisely > > this volition which makes our world into such a horrible mess. > > > > Len > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a difficult task as > long as > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. This assumption > can be explored > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices are made, we > might find > > that they come from factors over which we never had any control. > We're born > > with certain propensities and into a given environment. Our > choices, from the > > beginning, are based on these factors and our desire which arises > from that > > also. > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to tendencies and > experiences > > over which we never had any control because the choices that led > to them were > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. There is no > independent > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human is an > experiential vehicle > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what is done. This, > of course, > > will terrify ego that wants to control the behavior of others. > > > > Phil > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. The effort to > control. > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like war. > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so conditioned by the > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort but as an > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but it is not the > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the observation of own > impulses to realize that the automatical response is full of fear > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, controlling > response is in fact effortless. > > Len At first, I thought that one could make choices, but looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our life. Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a change into their sensibilities. It is in an effort to have more control in their life, and it creates a different flow and a new sensibilitie. Would you call that worthless? Patricia I'm not clear, Patricia. Does your example imply there IS choice? Phil .................................................................................\ ............................ well, I personnally don`t feel that I have choices, because in a way, even as a small kid, I have recognize a certain flow, a long time ago, and that flow was loud enough to not be bypassed. so far. but I wonder if it is always like that for everybody.??? That murmure in my heart haas been at the center of any of my endeavors, and what a life it has been.. greetings and a warm w-end to you, Patricia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/3/2006 2:14:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Fri, 3 Mar 2006 23:13:20 +0100 (CET) > OConnor Patricia <gdtige > RE: (Phil and Len )about choices > > > > > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and > this is > > precisely > > > this volition which makes our world into such a > horrible mess. > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a > difficult task as > > long as > > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. > This assumption > > can be explored > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices > are made, we > > might find > > > that they come from factors over which we never > had any control. > > We're born > > > with certain propensities and into a given > environment. Our > > choices, from the > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > desire which arises > > from that > > > also. > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to > tendencies and > > experiences > > > over which we never had any control because the > choices that led > > to them were > > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. > There is no > > independent > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human > is an > > experiential vehicle > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what > is done. This, > > of course, > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > behavior of others. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. > The effort to > > control. > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like > war. > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so > conditioned by the > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort > but as an > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but > it is not the > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > observation of own > > impulses to realize that the automatical response is > full of fear > > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, > controlling > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > Len > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, but > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call > choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. > According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our > life. > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > change into their sensibilities. > It is in an effort to have more control in their life, > and it creates a different flow and a new > sensibilitie. > Would you call that worthless? > Patricia > > > > > I'm not clear, Patricia. Does your example imply there IS choice? > > Phil If you´re attentive, you may notice that there is a possibility not to choose, which is something completely different from any choice you make. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:35:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Sat, 4 Mar 2006 01:19:53 +0100 (CET) > OConnor Patricia <gdtige > RE: Re: (Phil and Len )about choices > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia > <gdtige@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and > > this is > > > precisely > > > > this volition which makes our world into such a > > horrible mess. > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a > > difficult task as > > > long as > > > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. > > This assumption > > > can be explored > > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how > choices > > are made, we > > > might find > > > > that they come from factors over which we never > > had any control. > > > We're born > > > > with certain propensities and into a given > > environment. Our > > > choices, from the > > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > > desire which arises > > > from that > > > > also. > > > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to > > tendencies and > > > experiences > > > > over which we never had any control because the > > choices that led > > > to them were > > > > also not under our control. The mind is a > machine. > > There is no > > > independent > > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The > human > > is an > > > experiential vehicle > > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for > what > > is done. This, > > > of course, > > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > > behavior of others. > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental > effort/volition. > > The effort to > > > control. > > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like > > war. > > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so > > conditioned by the > > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort > > but as an > > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but > > it is not the > > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > > observation of own > > > impulses to realize that the automatical response > is > > full of fear > > > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, > > controlling > > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > > > Len > > > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, but > > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call > > choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. > > According to the flow we are subjected to, we live > our > > life. > > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from > > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > > change into their sensibilities. > > It is in an effort to have more control in their > life, > > and it creates a different flow and a new > > sensibilitie. > > Would you call that worthless? > > Patricia > > > > No, I wouldn´t. I think it´s only natural to want to > stop addiction > and live a more healthy life. > But effort seems often ineffective, especially when > it´s about > deeper psychological conflicts. We can handle little > problems with > effort, but on longer term we need something else: the > understanding > of the nature of conflict and our compulsive efforts > to get rid of > it rather then to understand it. > > Len > > True! I noticed that we can`t ever change ourselves, > we can only disappear a little, and a little more.. > Patricia > > > > When it comes to illusions, changing and disappearing are the same thing, eh? > > Phil No, changing is going from one choice to another, while what Patricia calles disappearing might mean: not chosing at all, no reaction. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:35:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Sat, 04 Mar 2006 00:12:02 -0000 > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 > Re: (Phil and Len )about choices > > Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and > > this is > > > precisely > > > > this volition which makes our world into such a > > horrible mess. > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a > > difficult task as > > > long as > > > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. > > This assumption > > > can be explored > > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how choices > > are made, we > > > might find > > > > that they come from factors over which we never > > had any control. > > > We're born > > > > with certain propensities and into a given > > environment. Our > > > choices, from the > > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > > desire which arises > > > from that > > > > also. > > > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to > > tendencies and > > > experiences > > > > over which we never had any control because the > > choices that led > > > to them were > > > > also not under our control. The mind is a machine. > > There is no > > > independent > > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The human > > is an > > > experiential vehicle > > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for what > > is done. This, > > > of course, > > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > > behavior of others. > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental effort/volition. > > The effort to > > > control. > > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like > > war. > > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so > > conditioned by the > > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort > > but as an > > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but > > it is not the > > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > > observation of own > > > impulses to realize that the automatical response is > > full of fear > > > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, > > controlling > > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > > > Len > > > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, but > > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call > > choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. > > According to the flow we are subjected to, we live our > > life. > > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from > > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > > change into their sensibilities. > > It is in an effort to have more control in their life, > > and it creates a different flow and a new > > sensibilitie. > > Would you call that worthless? > > Patricia > > > > No, I wouldn´t. I think it´s only natural to want to stop addiction > and live a more healthy life. > But effort seems often ineffective, especially when it´s about > deeper psychological conflicts. We can handle little problems with > effort, but on longer term we need something else: the understanding > of the nature of conflict and our compulsive efforts to get rid of > it rather then to understand it. > > Len > > > > True. Ultimately, understanding is the solution to all that nonsense, which > means truth. As cliche as it is, it's still true. The truth shall set us free. > Ego nonsense can and will hide anywhere, except in the light of day. > > Phil Yes, and although we call it nonsense, ego´s energy is very powerful, and the depth of its hidden influence is enourmous. Tremendous energy and engagement is required to see through its strong convictions. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 In a message dated 3/4/2006 8:44:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 14:08:28 -0000 " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Re: (Phil and Len )about choices Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:35:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Sat, 4 Mar 2006 01:19:53 +0100 (CET) > OConnor Patricia <gdtige > RE: Re: (Phil and Len )about choices > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia > <gdtige@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Actually I think there is plenty of volition and > > this is > > > precisely > > > > this volition which makes our world into such a > > horrible mess. > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a > > difficult task as > > > long as > > > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. > > This assumption > > > can be explored > > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how > choices > > are made, we > > > might find > > > > that they come from factors over which we never > > had any control. > > > We're born > > > > with certain propensities and into a given > > environment. Our > > > choices, from the > > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > > desire which arises > > > from that > > > > also. > > > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to > > tendencies and > > > experiences > > > > over which we never had any control because the > > choices that led > > > to them were > > > > also not under our control. The mind is a > machine. > > There is no > > > independent > > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The > human > > is an > > > experiential vehicle > > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for > what > > is done. This, > > > of course, > > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > > behavior of others. > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental > effort/volition. > > The effort to > > > control. > > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like > > war. > > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so > > conditioned by the > > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort > > but as an > > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but > > it is not the > > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > > observation of own > > > impulses to realize that the automatical response > is > > full of fear > > > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, > > controlling > > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > > > Len > > > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, but > > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call > > choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. > > According to the flow we are subjected to, we live > our > > life. > > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from > > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > > change into their sensibilities. > > It is in an effort to have more control in their > life, > > and it creates a different flow and a new > > sensibilitie. > > Would you call that worthless? > > Patricia > > > > No, I wouldn´t. I think it´s only natural to want to > stop addiction > and live a more healthy life. > But effort seems often ineffective, especially when > it´s about > deeper psychological conflicts. We can handle little > problems with > effort, but on longer term we need something else: the > understanding > of the nature of conflict and our compulsive efforts > to get rid of > it rather then to understand it. > > Len > > True! I noticed that we can`t ever change ourselves, > we can only disappear a little, and a little more.. > Patricia > > > > When it comes to illusions, changing and disappearing are the same thing, eh? > > Phil No, changing is going from one choice to another, while what Patricia calles disappearing might mean: not chosing at all, no reaction. Len Patricia would have to address what she means but what I mean is that the apparent change of circumstances isn't meaningful when it's only the moving from one illusion to another, but what is meaningful is acceptance, surrender, allowing, being, which are all terms that signify the ego's disappearance from the illusion, as illusion itself. Once again, there are no choices. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be a > > difficult task as > > > long as > > > > you believe that people choose to behave badly. > > This assumption > > > can be explored > > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how > choices > > are made, we > > > might find > > > > that they come from factors over which we never > > had any control. > > > We're born > > > > with certain propensities and into a given > > environment. Our > > > choices, from the > > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > > desire which arises > > > from that > > > > also. > > > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according to > > tendencies and > > > experiences > > > > over which we never had any control because the > > choices that led > > > to them were > > > > also not under our control. The mind is a > machine. > > There is no > > > independent > > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The > human > > is an > > > experiential vehicle > > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for > what > > is done. This, > > > of course, > > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > > behavior of others. > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental > effort/volition. > > The effort to > > > control. > > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, like > > war. > > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, so > > conditioned by the > > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an effort > > but as an > > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless but > > it is not the > > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > > observation of own > > > impulses to realize that the automatical response > is > > full of fear > > > and effort, while the absence of this automatical, > > controlling > > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > > > Len > > > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, but > > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we call > > choices are a natural outcome of our state of being. > > According to the flow we are subjected to, we live > our > > life. > > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves from > > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > > change into their sensibilities. > > It is in an effort to have more control in their > life, > > and it creates a different flow and a new > > sensibilitie. > > Would you call that worthless? > > Patricia > > > > No, I wouldn´t. I think it´s only natural to want to > stop addiction > and live a more healthy life. > But effort seems often ineffective, especially when > it´s about > deeper psychological conflicts. We can handle little > problems with > effort, but on longer term we need something else: the > understanding > of the nature of conflict and our compulsive efforts > to get rid of > it rather then to understand it. > > Len > > True! I noticed that we can`t ever change ourselves, > we can only disappear a little, and a little more.. > Patricia > > > > When it comes to illusions, changing and disappearing are the same thing, eh? > > Phil No, changing is going from one choice to another, while what Patricia calles disappearing might mean: not chosing at all, no reaction. Len Being neutral...Such a despised attitude and yet...the most revolutionary one! Patricia ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, and so releasing judgment is going to be > a > > > difficult task as > > > > long as > > > > > you believe that people choose to behave > badly. > > > This assumption > > > > can be explored > > > > > if there's any interest. If we explore how > > choices > > > are made, we > > > > might find > > > > > that they come from factors over which we > never > > > had any control. > > > > We're born > > > > > with certain propensities and into a given > > > environment. Our > > > > choices, from the > > > > > beginning, are based on these factors and our > > > desire which arises > > > > from that > > > > > also. > > > > > > > > > > Every choice is mechanically made according > to > > > tendencies and > > > > experiences > > > > > over which we never had any control because > the > > > choices that led > > > > to them were > > > > > also not under our control. The mind is a > > machine. > > > There is no > > > > independent > > > > > volition. There is nobody present here. The > > human > > > is an > > > > experiential vehicle > > > > > only. There is nobody to hold responsible for > > what > > > is done. This, > > > > of course, > > > > > will terrify ego that wants to control the > > > behavior of others. > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > Every choice is a result of mental > > effort/volition. > > > The effort to > > > > control. > > > > This effort leads to most horrible conflicts, > like > > > war. > > > > However the effort is so old, so automatical, > so > > > conditioned by the > > > > past that it isn´t being experienced as an > effort > > > but as an > > > > automatism. This might make seem it effortless > but > > > it is not the > > > > case. It takes a lot of self knowledge, the > > > observation of own > > > > impulses to realize that the automatical > response > > is > > > full of fear > > > > and effort, while the absence of this > automatical, > > > controlling > > > > response is in fact effortless. > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > At first, I thought that one could make choices, > but > > > looking closer at it, you are so right, what we > call > > > choices are a natural outcome of our state of > being. > > > According to the flow we are subjected to, we > live > > our > > > life. > > > Now,for exemple, some poeple refrain themselves > from > > > toxic substances, alcohol...and they do create a > > > change into their sensibilities. > > > It is in an effort to have more control in their > > life, > > > and it creates a different flow and a new > > > sensibilitie. > > > Would you call that worthless? > > > Patricia > > > > > > > > No, I wouldn´t. I think it´s only natural to want > to > > stop addiction > > and live a more healthy life. > > But effort seems often ineffective, especially when > > it´s about > > deeper psychological conflicts. We can handle > little > > problems with > > effort, but on longer term we need something else: > the > > understanding > > of the nature of conflict and our compulsive > efforts > > to get rid of > > it rather then to understand it. > > > > Len > > > > True! I noticed that we can`t ever change > ourselves, > > we can only disappear a little, and a little more.. > > Patricia > > > > > > > > When it comes to illusions, changing and > disappearing are the same > thing, eh? > > > > Phil > > > > No, changing is going from one choice to another, > while what Patricia > calles disappearing might mean: not chosing at all, no > reaction. > > Len > > Being neutral...Such a despised attitude and yet...the > most revolutionary one! > Patricia Yes. Not fashionable those days, though. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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