Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 > Bob quotes: " The Subject or Self occupies a position > analogous to that of the parameter in mathematics. " > > Hey, numeric cowboy, one can question what > is the use of analogies? Do they clarify, or > simply fire-up the imagination? > > Mixing mathematical metaphors and Nonduality > to clarify self or Consciousness is very > misleading. True, both rest on seemingly > unproven axions, but math's axions are tested > by their ability to solve problems, and give > verifiable, replicable results when used as > the basis of logical math operations. On the other > hand, the axions that there is a Self, and > the axion that there is no Self (anatta) > lead at best to subjective states, never to > verifiable empirical results. And trying to prove > them with analogies, metaphors, similes, parables > and examples proves nothing, and the simple-minded > take those language devices literally as > expressions of truth. > > Pete > > Hey Peter...please as the Great mathematician that I can see you must be..what the hell is an axioN???? Can't be a misspelling, you use the term several times here ( I won't count them as I will now defer to you as the math whiz.If ever a wiz there was). Waiting for the Enlightenment, I remain yours truly, bob P: Sorry, it was a misspelling of the word axiom ( a postulate taken on faith as self evident) which my spell-check didn't catch because the word axion is the name of a hypothetical particle of low mass and energy. And my math is very limited, I can only count to 21 using fingers, toes, and.. ) But to detect mixing apples and oranges and calling it guacamole, I don't need to be Newton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 > but math's axions are tested > by their ability to solve problems, and give > verifiable, replicable results when used as > the basis of logical math operations. Mathematical axioms are not really tested. It is " models " , not axioms that are tested. [A model is a " system " defined by its axioms.] The model itself, though, is not strictly what is tested, but the model *as per a defined mapping* to some problem domain wherein the predictability of the model can be evaluated. So what is tested is a model + a particular defined mapping. But what is a model + a particular defined mapping? It is, in essence, a formalized *analogy*. Note that such a model + mapping is not actually shown -- ever -- to be *true*. It is only shown to be *useful* in a certain particular way. In mathematics the only things that are *true* in any absolute sense are tautologies. They do not say anything whatsoever about the nature of reality. Bill Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote: > > Bob quotes: " The Subject or Self occupies a position > analogous to that of the parameter in mathematics. " > > Hey, numeric cowboy, one can question what > is the use of analogies? Do they clarify, or > simply fire-up the imagination? > > Mixing mathematical metaphors and Nonduality > to clarify self or Consciousness is very > misleading. True, both rest on seemingly > unproven axions, but math's axions are tested > by their ability to solve problems, and give > verifiable, replicable results when used as > the basis of logical math operations. On the other > hand, the axions that there is a Self, and > the axion that there is no Self (anatta) > lead at best to subjective states, never to > verifiable empirical results. And trying to prove > them with analogies, metaphors, similes, parables > and examples proves nothing, and the simple-minded > take those language devices literally as > expressions of truth. > > Pete > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > > but math's axions are tested > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > the basis of logical math operations. > > Mathematical axioms are not really tested. > > It is " models " , not axioms that are tested. > [A model is a " system " defined by its axioms.] > The model itself, though, is not strictly what > is tested, but the model *as per a defined mapping* > to some problem domain wherein the predictability > of the model can be evaluated. > > So what is tested is a model + a particular defined > mapping. > > But what is a model + a particular defined mapping? > > It is, in essence, a formalized *analogy*. > > Note that such a model + mapping is not actually > shown -- ever -- to be *true*. It is only shown > to be *useful* in a certain particular way. > > In mathematics the only things that are *true* in > any absolute sense are tautologies. They do not > say anything whatsoever about the nature of reality. > > > Bill > > You said it Bill, right on! Loving the Laws, I am/am not bob( a truism of sorts LOL) > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > Bob quotes: " The Subject or Self occupies a position > > analogous to that of the parameter in mathematics. " > > > > Hey, numeric cowboy, one can question what > > is the use of analogies? Do they clarify, or > > simply fire-up the imagination? > > > > Mixing mathematical metaphors and Nonduality > > to clarify self or Consciousness is very > > misleading. True, both rest on seemingly > > unproven axions, but math's axions are tested > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > the basis of logical math operations. On the other > > hand, the axions that there is a Self, and > > the axion that there is no Self (anatta) > > lead at best to subjective states, never to > > verifiable empirical results. And trying to prove > > them with analogies, metaphors, similes, parables > > and examples proves nothing, and the simple-minded > > take those language devices literally as > > expressions of truth. > > > > Pete > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 " tautology " gets one 43 points on the enlightenment scrabble board, you guys are doing really good! epistemology will be the winner. - Bob N. Nisargadatta Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:20 PM Re: Math, Path & Analogies Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > > but math's axions are tested > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > the basis of logical math operations. > > Mathematical axioms are not really tested. > > It is " models " , not axioms that are tested. > [A model is a " system " defined by its axioms.] > The model itself, though, is not strictly what > is tested, but the model *as per a defined mapping* > to some problem domain wherein the predictability > of the model can be evaluated. > > So what is tested is a model + a particular defined > mapping. > > But what is a model + a particular defined mapping? > > It is, in essence, a formalized *analogy*. > > Note that such a model + mapping is not actually > shown -- ever -- to be *true*. It is only shown > to be *useful* in a certain particular way. > > In mathematics the only things that are *true* in > any absolute sense are tautologies. They do not > say anything whatsoever about the nature of reality. > > > Bill > > You said it Bill, right on! Loving the Laws, I am/am not bob( a truism of sorts LOL) > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > Bob quotes: " The Subject or Self occupies a position > > analogous to that of the parameter in mathematics. " > > > > Hey, numeric cowboy, one can question what > > is the use of analogies? Do they clarify, or > > simply fire-up the imagination? > > > > Mixing mathematical metaphors and Nonduality > > to clarify self or Consciousness is very > > misleading. True, both rest on seemingly > > unproven axions, but math's axions are tested > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > the basis of logical math operations. On the other > > hand, the axions that there is a Self, and > > the axion that there is no Self (anatta) > > lead at best to subjective states, never to > > verifiable empirical results. And trying to prove > > them with analogies, metaphors, similes, parables > > and examples proves nothing, and the simple-minded > > take those language devices literally as > > expressions of truth. > > > > Pete > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 " tautology " gets one 43 points on the enlightenment scrabble board, you guys are doing really good! epistemology will be the winner. ~~~ Excuse me Fred, but did you say something? I can't seem to find any comment in what you posted above. In other words, what is the point you were making with your remark? Bill Nisargadatta , " Fred " <thejman wrote: > > " tautology " gets one 43 points on the enlightenment scrabble board, you guys are doing really good! epistemology will be the winner. > - > Bob N. > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:20 PM > Re: Math, Path & Analogies > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > but math's axions are tested > > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > > the basis of logical math operations. > > > > Mathematical axioms are not really tested. > > > > It is " models " , not axioms that are tested. > > [A model is a " system " defined by its axioms.] > > The model itself, though, is not strictly what > > is tested, but the model *as per a defined mapping* > > to some problem domain wherein the predictability > > of the model can be evaluated. > > > > So what is tested is a model + a particular defined > > mapping. > > > > But what is a model + a particular defined mapping? > > > > It is, in essence, a formalized *analogy*. > > > > Note that such a model + mapping is not actually > > shown -- ever -- to be *true*. It is only shown > > to be *useful* in a certain particular way. > > > > In mathematics the only things that are *true* in > > any absolute sense are tautologies. They do not > > say anything whatsoever about the nature of reality. > > > > > > Bill > > > > You said it Bill, right on! > Loving the Laws, > I am/am not bob( a truism of sorts LOL) > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > > > Bob quotes: " The Subject or Self occupies a position > > > analogous to that of the parameter in mathematics. " > > > > > > Hey, numeric cowboy, one can question what > > > is the use of analogies? Do they clarify, or > > > simply fire-up the imagination? > > > > > > Mixing mathematical metaphors and Nonduality > > > to clarify self or Consciousness is very > > > misleading. True, both rest on seemingly > > > unproven axions, but math's axions are tested > > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > > the basis of logical math operations. On the other > > > hand, the axions that there is a Self, and > > > the axion that there is no Self (anatta) > > > lead at best to subjective states, never to > > > verifiable empirical results. And trying to prove > > > them with analogies, metaphors, similes, parables > > > and examples proves nothing, and the simple-minded > > > take those language devices literally as > > > expressions of truth. > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 was making the same point that you were with your remarks, what point were you making? - billrishel Nisargadatta Tuesday, March 07, 2006 1:39 PM Re: Math, Path & Analogies " tautology " gets one 43 points on the enlightenment scrabble board, you guys are doing really good! epistemology will be the winner. ~~~ Excuse me Fred, but did you say something? I can't seem to find any comment in what you posted above. In other words, what is the point you were making with your remark? Bill Nisargadatta , " Fred " <thejman wrote: > > " tautology " gets one 43 points on the enlightenment scrabble board, you guys are doing really good! epistemology will be the winner. > - > Bob N. > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:20 PM > Re: Math, Path & Analogies > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > but math's axions are tested > > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > > the basis of logical math operations. > > > > Mathematical axioms are not really tested. > > > > It is " models " , not axioms that are tested. > > [A model is a " system " defined by its axioms.] > > The model itself, though, is not strictly what > > is tested, but the model *as per a defined mapping* > > to some problem domain wherein the predictability > > of the model can be evaluated. > > > > So what is tested is a model + a particular defined > > mapping. > > > > But what is a model + a particular defined mapping? > > > > It is, in essence, a formalized *analogy*. > > > > Note that such a model + mapping is not actually > > shown -- ever -- to be *true*. It is only shown > > to be *useful* in a certain particular way. > > > > In mathematics the only things that are *true* in > > any absolute sense are tautologies. They do not > > say anything whatsoever about the nature of reality. > > > > > > Bill > > > > You said it Bill, right on! > Loving the Laws, > I am/am not bob( a truism of sorts LOL) > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > > > Bob quotes: " The Subject or Self occupies a position > > > analogous to that of the parameter in mathematics. " > > > > > > Hey, numeric cowboy, one can question what > > > is the use of analogies? Do they clarify, or > > > simply fire-up the imagination? > > > > > > Mixing mathematical metaphors and Nonduality > > > to clarify self or Consciousness is very > > > misleading. True, both rest on seemingly > > > unproven axions, but math's axions are tested > > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > > the basis of logical math operations. On the other > > > hand, the axions that there is a Self, and > > > the axion that there is no Self (anatta) > > > lead at best to subjective states, never to > > > verifiable empirical results. And trying to prove > > > them with analogies, metaphors, similes, parables > > > and examples proves nothing, and the simple-minded > > > take those language devices literally as > > > expressions of truth. > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 > was making the same point that you were with your remarks, what > point were you making? If it is the same as what your were making, why do you need to ask? > - > billrishel > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 1:39 PM > Re: Math, Path & Analogies > > > " tautology " gets one 43 points on the enlightenment > scrabble board, you guys are doing really good! > epistemology will be the winner. > ~~~ > Excuse me Fred, but did you say something? > I can't seem to find any comment in what you > posted above. > > In other words, what is the point you were making > with your remark? > > Bill > > > Nisargadatta , " Fred " <thejman@> wrote: > > > > " tautology " gets one 43 points on the enlightenment scrabble board, > you guys are doing really good! epistemology will be the winner. > > - > > Bob N. > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:20 PM > > Re: Math, Path & Analogies > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > but math's axions are tested > > > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > > > the basis of logical math operations. > > > > > > Mathematical axioms are not really tested. > > > > > > It is " models " , not axioms that are tested. > > > [A model is a " system " defined by its axioms.] > > > The model itself, though, is not strictly what > > > is tested, but the model *as per a defined mapping* > > > to some problem domain wherein the predictability > > > of the model can be evaluated. > > > > > > So what is tested is a model + a particular defined > > > mapping. > > > > > > But what is a model + a particular defined mapping? > > > > > > It is, in essence, a formalized *analogy*. > > > > > > Note that such a model + mapping is not actually > > > shown -- ever -- to be *true*. It is only shown > > > to be *useful* in a certain particular way. > > > > > > In mathematics the only things that are *true* in > > > any absolute sense are tautologies. They do not > > > say anything whatsoever about the nature of reality. > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > You said it Bill, right on! > > Loving the Laws, > > I am/am not bob( a truism of sorts LOL) > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bob quotes: " The Subject or Self occupies a position > > > > analogous to that of the parameter in mathematics. " > > > > > > > > Hey, numeric cowboy, one can question what > > > > is the use of analogies? Do they clarify, or > > > > simply fire-up the imagination? > > > > > > > > Mixing mathematical metaphors and Nonduality > > > > to clarify self or Consciousness is very > > > > misleading. True, both rest on seemingly > > > > unproven axions, but math's axions are tested > > > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > > > the basis of logical math operations. On the other > > > > hand, the axions that there is a Self, and > > > > the axion that there is no Self (anatta) > > > > lead at best to subjective states, never to > > > > verifiable empirical results. And trying to prove > > > > them with analogies, metaphors, similes, parables > > > > and examples proves nothing, and the simple-minded > > > > take those language devices literally as > > > > expressions of truth. > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 exactly so, what you heard wasn't what was said - billrishel Nisargadatta Tuesday, March 07, 2006 4:28 PM Re: Math, Path & Analogies > was making the same point that you were with your remarks, what > point were you making? If it is the same as what your were making, why do you need to ask? > - > billrishel > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 1:39 PM > Re: Math, Path & Analogies > > > " tautology " gets one 43 points on the enlightenment > scrabble board, you guys are doing really good! > epistemology will be the winner. > ~~~ > Excuse me Fred, but did you say something? > I can't seem to find any comment in what you > posted above. > > In other words, what is the point you were making > with your remark? > > Bill > > > Nisargadatta , " Fred " <thejman@> wrote: > > > > " tautology " gets one 43 points on the enlightenment scrabble board, > you guys are doing really good! epistemology will be the winner. > > - > > Bob N. > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:20 PM > > Re: Math, Path & Analogies > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > but math's axions are tested > > > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > > > the basis of logical math operations. > > > > > > Mathematical axioms are not really tested. > > > > > > It is " models " , not axioms that are tested. > > > [A model is a " system " defined by its axioms.] > > > The model itself, though, is not strictly what > > > is tested, but the model *as per a defined mapping* > > > to some problem domain wherein the predictability > > > of the model can be evaluated. > > > > > > So what is tested is a model + a particular defined > > > mapping. > > > > > > But what is a model + a particular defined mapping? > > > > > > It is, in essence, a formalized *analogy*. > > > > > > Note that such a model + mapping is not actually > > > shown -- ever -- to be *true*. It is only shown > > > to be *useful* in a certain particular way. > > > > > > In mathematics the only things that are *true* in > > > any absolute sense are tautologies. They do not > > > say anything whatsoever about the nature of reality. > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > You said it Bill, right on! > > Loving the Laws, > > I am/am not bob( a truism of sorts LOL) > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bob quotes: " The Subject or Self occupies a position > > > > analogous to that of the parameter in mathematics. " > > > > > > > > Hey, numeric cowboy, one can question what > > > > is the use of analogies? Do they clarify, or > > > > simply fire-up the imagination? > > > > > > > > Mixing mathematical metaphors and Nonduality > > > > to clarify self or Consciousness is very > > > > misleading. True, both rest on seemingly > > > > unproven axions, but math's axions are tested > > > > by their ability to solve problems, and give > > > > verifiable, replicable results when used as > > > > the basis of logical math operations. On the other > > > > hand, the axions that there is a Self, and > > > > the axion that there is no Self (anatta) > > > > lead at best to subjective states, never to > > > > verifiable empirical results. And trying to prove > > > > them with analogies, metaphors, similes, parables > > > > and examples proves nothing, and the simple-minded > > > > take those language devices literally as > > > > expressions of truth. > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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