Song of Bernadette (one last somewhat long post Phil [sorry])

[Guest guest]

Following is an interview done by Stephan Bodian ( famous as the

psychiatrist of Suzanne Segal (of " Collisions with the Infinite "

fame),that was conducted 20 + years ago with Bernadette Roberts.

Since that time a third and fourth book have been added to the

repetoire if you will: " What is Self "

and " Contemplative " (Autobiography of the Early Years by

Bernadette Roberts

 

" This book is an account of my spiritual journey from birth to

seventeen. Since my book The Path to No- Self, begins at age

seventeen, the present book covers the earlier years and my initial

steps in the contemplative path. The purpose of this writing is both

to give this background and give witness to God's work in a single

soul. Since God is at work in every soul, it is up to each of us to

give our own account, no one else can do this for us " . (from the

introduction)

 

This enlightened one is holding a retreat in Ohio near the Kentucky

border in May of this year open to all seekers and realizers.Though

crouched in the Christos Mystery, her words have a peculiar potency

that can be of enormous power towards Recognition.And though this

dialogue occured two decades ago, I believe it remains,as do all her

words,..Timeless.

 

In this exclusive interview with Stephan Bodian, (published in the

Nov/Dec 1986 issue of YOGA JOURNAL), author Bernadette Roberts

describes the path of the Christian contemplative after the

experience of oneness with God.

 

Bernadette Roberts is the author of two extraordinary books on the

Christian cnontemplative journey, The Experience of No-Self

(Shambhala, 1982) and The Path to No-Self (Shambala, 1985). A

cloistered nun for nine years, Roberts reports that she returned to

the world after experiencing the " unitive state " , the state of

oneness with God, in order to share what she had learned and to take

on the problems and experience of others.

 

In the years that followed she completed a graduate degree in

education, married, raised four children, and taught at the pre-

school, high school, and junior college levels; at the same time she

continued her contempative practice. Then, quite unexpectedly, some

20 years after leaving the convent, Roberts reportedly experienced

the dropping away of the unitive state itself and came upon what she

calls " the experience of no-self " - an experience for which the

Christian literature, she says, gave her no clear road maps or

guideposts. Her books, which combine fascinating chronicles of her

own experiences with detailed maps of the contemplative terrain, and

her attempt to provide such guideposts for those who might follow

after her.

 

Now 55, and once again living in Los Angeles, where she was born and

raised, Roberts characterizes herself as a " bag lady " whose sister

and brother in law are " keeping her off the streets " . " I came into

this world with nothing, " she writes, " and I leave with nothing. But

in between I lived fully - had all the experiences, stretched the

limits, and took one two many chances " .

 

When I approached her for an interview, Roberts was reluctant at

first, protesting that others who had tried had distorted her

meaning, and that nothing had come of it in the end. Instead of a

live interview, she suggested, why not send her a list of questions

to which she would respond in writing, thereby eliminating all

possibility for misunderstanding. As a result, I never got to meet

Bernadette Roberts face to face - but her answers to my questions,

which are as carefully crafted and as deeply considered as her books,

are a remarkable testament to the power of contemplation.

 

Stephan: Could you talk briefly about the first three stages of the

Christian contemplative life as you experienced them - in particular,

what you (and others) have called the unitive state?

 

Bernadette: Strictly speaking, the terms " purgative " , " illuminative " ,

and " unitive " (often used of the contemplative path) do not refer to

discrete stages, but to a way of travel where " letting

go " , " insight " , and " union " , define the major experiences of the

journey. To illustrate the continuum, authors cone up with various

stages, depending on the criteria they are using. St.Teresa, for

example, divided the path into seven stages or " mansions " . But I

don't think we should get locked into any stage theory: it is always

someone else's retrospective view of his or her own journey, which

may not include our own experiences or insights. Our obligation is to

be true to our own insights, our own inner light.

 

My view of what some authors call the " unitive stage " is that it

begins with the Dark Night of the Spirit, or the onset of the

transformational process - when the larva enters the cocoon, so to

speak. Up to this point, we are actively reforming ourselves, doing

what we can to bring about an abiding union with the divine. But at a

certain point, when we have done all we can, the divine steps in and

takes over. The transforming process is a divine undoing and redoing

that culminates in what is called the state of " transforming union "

or " mystical marriage " , considered to be the definitive state for the

Christian contemplative.

 

In experience, the onset of this process is the descent of the cloud

of unknowing, which, because his former light had gone out and left

him in darkness, the contemplative initialy interprets as the divine

gone into hiding. In modern terms, the descent of the cloud is

actually the falling away of the ego-center, which leaves us looking

into a dark hole, a void or empty space in ourselves. Without the

veil of the ego-center, we do not recognize the divine; it is not as

we thought it should be. Seeing the divine, eye to eye is a reality

that shatters our expectations of light and bliss. From here on we

must feel our way in the dark, and the special eye that allows us to

see in the dark opens up at this time. So here begins our journey to

the true center, the botton-most, innermost " point " in ourselves

where our life and being runs into divine life and being - the point

at which all existence comes together.

 

This center can be compared to a coin: on the near side is our self,

on the far side is the divine. One side is not the other side, yet we

cannot separate the two sides. If we tried to do so, we would either

end up with another side, or the whole coin would collapse, leaving

no center at all - no self and no divine. We call this a state of

oneness or union because the single center has two sides, without

which there would be nothing to be one, united, or non-dual. Such, at

least, is the experiential reality of the state of transforning

union, the state of oneness.

 

How did you discover the further stage, which you call the experience

of no-self?

 

That occurred unexpectedly some 25 years after the transforming

process. The divine center - the coin, or " true self " - suddenly

disappeared, and without center or circumference there is no self,

and no divine. Our subjective life of experience is over - the

passage is finished. I had never heard of such a possibility or

happening.

 

Obviously there is far more to the elusive experience we call self

than just the ego. The paradox of our passage is that we really do

not know what self or consciousness is, so long as we are living it,

or are it. The true nature of self can only be fully disclosed when

it is gone, when there is no self. One outcome, then, of the no-self

experience is the disclosure of the true nature of self or

consciousness. As it turns out, self is the entire system of

consciousness, from the unconscious to God-consciousness, the entire

dimension of human knowledge and feeling-experience. Because the

terms " self " and " consciousness " express the same experiences

(nothing can be said of one that cannot be said of the other), they

are only definable in the terms of " experience " . Every other

definition is conjecture and speculation. No-self, then, means no-

consciousness. If this is shocking to some people, it is only because

they do not know the true nature of consciousness. Sometimes we get

so caught up in the content ofconsciousness, we forget that

consciousness is also a somatic function of the physical body, and,

like every such function, it is not eternal. Perhaps we would do

better searching for the divine in our bodies than amid the content

and experience of consciousness.

 

How does one move from " transforming union " to the experience of no-

self? What is the path like?

 

We can only see a path in retrospect. Once we come to the state of

oneness, we can go no further with the inward journey. The divine

center is the innermost " point " , beyond which we cannot go at this

time. Having reached this point, the movement of our journey turns

around and begins to move outward - the center is expanding outward.

 

To see how this works, imagine self, or consciousness, as a circular

piece of paper. The initial center is the ego, the particular energy

we call " will " or volitional faculty, which can either be turned

outward, toward itsef, or inward, toward the divine ground, which

underlies the center of the paper. When, from our side of

consciousness, we can do no more to reach this ground, the divine

takes the initiative and breaks through the center, shattering the

ego like an arrow shot through the center of being. The result is a

dark hole in ourselves and the feeling of terrible void and

emptiness. This breakthrough demands a restructuring or change of

consciousness, and this change is the true nature of the transforming

process. Although this transformation culminates in true human

maturity, it is not man's final state. The whole purpose of oneness

is to move us on to a more final state.

 

To understand what happens next, we have to keep cutting larger holes

in the paper, expanding the center until only the barest rim or

circumference remains. One more expansion of the divine center, and

the boundaries of consciousness or self fall away. From this

illustration we can see how the ultimate fulfillment of

consciousness, or self, is no-consciousness, or no-self. The path

from oneness to no-oneness is an egoless one and is therefore devoid

of ego-satisfaction. Despite the unchanging center of peace and joy,

the events of life may not be peaceful or joyful at all. With no ego-

gratification at the center and no divine joy on the surface, this

part of the journey is not easy. Heroic acts of selflessness are

required to come to the end of self, acts comparable to cutting ever-

larger holes in the paper - acts, that is, that bring no return to

the self whatsoever.

 

The major tempation to be overcome in this period is the temptation

to fall for one of the subtle but powerful archetypes of the

collective consciousness. As I see it, in the transforming process we

only come to terms with the archetypes of the personal unconscious;

the archetypes of the collective consciousness are reserved for

individuals in the state of oneness, because those archetypes are

powers or energies of that state. Jung felt that these archetypes

were unlimited; but in fact, there is only one true archetype, and

that archtype is self. What is unlimited are the various masks or

roles self is tempted to play in the state of oneness - savior,

prophet, healer, martyr, Mother Earth, you name it. They are all

temptations to seize power for ourselves, to think ourselves to be

whatever the mask or role may be. In the state of oneness, both

Christ and Buddha were tempted in this manner, but they held to

the " ground " that they knew to be devoid of all such energies. This

ground is a " stillpoint " , not a moving energy-point. Unmasking these

energies, seeing them as ruses of the self, is the particular task to

be accomplished or hurdle to be overcome in the state of oneness. We

cannot come to the ending of self until we have finally seen through

these archetypes and can no longer be moved by any of them.

 

So the path from oneness to no-oneness is a life that is choicelessly

devoid of ego-satisfaction; a life of unmasking the energies of self

and all the divine roles it is tempted to play. It is hard to call

this life a " path " , yet it is the only way to get to the end of our

journey.

 

In the 'Experience of No-Self' you talk at great length about your

experience of the dropping away or loss of self. Could you briefly

describe this experience and the events that led up to it. I was

particularly struck by your statement " I realized I no longer had

a 'within' at all " . For so many of us, the spiritual life is

experienced as an " inner life " - yet the great saints and sages have

talked about going beyond any sense of inwardness.

 

Your observation strikes me as particularly astute; most people miss

the point. You have actually put your finger on the key factor that

distinguishes between the state of oneness and the state of no-

oneness, between self and no-self. So long as self remains, there

will always be a " center " . Few people realize that not only is the

center responsible for their interior experiences of energy, emotion,

and feeling, but also, underlying these, the center is our

continuous, mysterious experience of " life " and " being " . Because this

experience is more pervasive than our other experiences, we may not

think of " life " and " being " as an interior experience. Even in the

state of oneness, we tend to forget that our experience of " being "

originates in the divine center, where it is one with divine life and

being. We have become so used to living from this center that we feel

no need to remember it, to mentally focus on it, look within, or even

think about it. Despite this fact, however, the center remains; it is

the epicenter of our experience of life and being, which gives rise

to our experiential energies and various feelings.

 

If this center suddenly dissolves and disappears, the experences of

life, being, energy, feeling and so on come to an end, because there

is no " within " any more. And without a " within " , there is no

subjective, psychological, or spiritual life remaining - no

experience of life at all. Our subjecive life is over and done with.

But now, without center and circumference, where is the divine?

 

To get hold of this situation, imagine consciousness as a balloon

filled with, and suspended in divine air. The balloon experiences the

divine as immanent, " in " itself, as well as transcendent, beyond or

outside itself. This is the experience of the divine in ourselves and

ourselves in the divine; in the state of oneness, Christ is often

seen as the balloon (ourselves), completing this trinitarian

experience. But what makes this whole experience possible - the

divine as both immanent and transcendent - is obviously the balloon,

ie, consciousness or self. Consciousness sets up the divisions of

within and without, spirit and matter, body and soul, immanent and

transcendent; in fact, consciousness is responsible for every

division we know of.

 

But what if we pop the balloon - or better, cause it to vanish like a

bubble that leaves no residue. All that remains is divine air. There

is no divine in anything, there is no divine transcendence or beyond

anything, nor is the divine anything. We cannot point to anything or

anyone and say, " This or that is divine " . So the divine is all - all

but consciousness or self, which created the division in the first

place.

 

As long as consciousness remains however, it does not hide the

divine, nor is it ever separated from it. In Christian terms, the

divine known to consciousness and experienced by it as immanent and

transcendent is called God; the divine as it exists prior to

consciousness and after consciousness is gone is called Godhead.

 

Obviously, what accounts for the difference between God and Godhead

is the balloon or bubble - self or consciousness. As long as any

subjective self remains, a center remains; and so, too, does the

sense of interiority.

 

You mention that, with the loss of the personal self, the personal

God drops away as well. Is the personal God, then, a transitional

figure in our search for ultimate loss of self.

 

Sometimes we forget that we cannot put our finger on any thing or any

experience that is not transitional. Since consciousness, self, or

subject is the human faculty for experiencing the divine, every such

experience is personally subjective; thus in my view, " personal God "

is any subjective experience of the divine. Without a personal,

subjective self, we could not even speak of an impersonal, no-

subjective God; one is just relative to the other. Before

consciousness or self existed, however, the divine was neither

personal nor impersonal, subjective nor non-subjective - and so the

divine remains when self or consciousness has dropped away.

 

Consciousness by its very nature tends to make the divine into its

own image and likeness; the only problem is, the divine has no image

or likeness. hence consciousness, of itself, cannot truly apprehend

the divine. Christians (Catholics especially) are often blamed for

being the great image makers, yet their images are so obviously naive

and easy to see through, we often miss the more subtle, formless

images by which consciousness fashions the divine. For example,

because the divine is a subjective experience, we think the divine is

a subject; because we experience the divine through the faculties of

consciousness, will, and intellect, we think the divne is equally

consciousness, will and intellect; because we experience ourselves as

a being or entity, we experience the divine as a being or entity;

because we judge others, we think the divine judges others; and so

on. Carrying a holy card in our pockets is tame compared to the

formless notions we carry around in our minds; it is easy to let go

of an image, but almost impossible to uproot our intelletual

convictions based on the experiences of consciousness. Still, if we

actually knew the unbridgeable chasm that lies between the true

nature of consciousness or self and the true nature of the divine, we

would despair of ever making the journey. So consciousness is the

marvelous divine invention by which human beings make the journey in

subjective companionship with the divine; and, like every divine

invention, it works. Consciousness both hides the chasm and bridges

it - and when we have crossed over, of course, we do not need the

bridge any more.

 

So it doesn't matter that we start out on our journey with our holy

cards, gongs and bells, sacred books and religious feelings. All of

it should lead to growth and transformation, the ultimate surrender

of our images and concepts, and a life of selfless giving. When ther

is nothing left to surrender, nothing left to give, only then can we

come to the end of the passage - the ending of consciousness and its

personally subjective God. One glimpse of the Godhead, and no one

would want God back.

 

How does the path to no-self in the Christian contemplative tradition

differ from the path as laid out in the Hindu and Buddhist traditions?

 

I think it may be too late for me to ever have a good understanding

of how other religions make this passage. If you are not surrendering

your whole being, your very consciousness, to a loved and trusted

personal God, then what are you surrendering it to? Or why surrender

it at all? Loss of ego, loss of self, is just a by-product of this

surrrender; it is not the true goal, not an end in itself. Perhaps

this is also the view of Mahayana Buddhism, where the goal is to save

all sentient beings from suffering, and where loss of ego, loss of

self, is seen as a means to a greater end. This view is very much in

keeping with the Christian desire to save all souls. As I see it,

without a personal God, the Buddhist must have a much stronger faith

in the " unconditioned and unbegotten " than is required of the

Christian contemplative, who experiences the passage as a divine

doing, and in no way a self-doing.

 

Actually, I met up with Buddhism only at the end of my journey, after

the no-self experience. Since I knew that this experience was not

articulated in our contemplative literature, I went to the library to

see is it could be found in the Eastern Religions. It did not take me

long to realize that I would not find it in the Hindu tradition,

where, as I see it, the final state is equivalent to the Christian

experience of oneness or transforming union. If a Hindu had what I

call the no-self experience, it would be the sudden, unexpected

disappearance of the Atman-Brahman, the divine Self in the " cave of

the heart " , and the disappearance of the cave as well. It would be

the ending of God-consciousness, or transcendental consciousness -

that seemingly bottomless experience of " being " , " consciousness " ,

and " bliss " that articulates the state of oneness. to regard this

ending as the falling away of the ego is a grave error; ego must fall

away before the state of oneness can be realized. The no-self

experience is the falling away of this previously realized

transcendent state.

 

Initially, when I looked into Buddhism, I did not find the experience

of no-self there either; yet I intuited that it had to be there. The

falling away of the ego is common to both Hinduism and Buddhism.

Therefore, it would not account for the fact that Buddhism became a

separate religion, nor would it account for the Buddhist's insistence

on no eternal Self - be it divine, individual or the two in one. I

felt that the key difference between these two religions was the no-

self experience, the falling away of the true Self, Atman-Brahman.

 

Unfortunately, what most Buddhist authors define as the no-self

experience is actually the no-ego experience. The cessation of

clinging, craving, desire, the passions, etc., and the ensuing state

of imperturbable peace and joy articulates the egoless state of

oneness; it does not, however, articulate the no-self experience or

the dimension beyond. Unless we clearly distinguish between these two

very different experiences, we only confuse them, with the inevitable

result that the true no-self experience becomes lost. If we think the

falling away of the ego, with its ensuing transformation and oneness,

is the no-self experience, then what shall we call the much further

experience when this egoless oneness falls away? In actual experience

there is only one thing to call it, the " no-self experience " ; it

lends itself to no other possible articulation. Initially I gave up

looking for this experience in the Buddhist literature.

 

Four years later, however, I came across two lines attributed to

Buddha describing his enlightenment experience. Referring to self as

a house, he said, " All thy rafters are broken now, the ridgepole is

destroyed " . and there it was - the disappearance of the center, the

ridgepole; without it, there can be no house, no self. When I read

these lines, it was as if an arrow launched at the beginning of time

had suddenly hit a bulls-eye. It was a remarkable find. These lines

are not a piece of philosophy, but an experiential account, and

without the experiential account we really have nothing to go on. In

the same verse he says, " Again a house thou shall not build " , clearly

distinguishing this experience from the falling away of the ego-

center, after which a new, transformed self is built around a " true

center " , a sturdy, balanced ridgepole.

 

As a Christian, I saw the no-self experience as the true nature of

Christ's death, the movement beyond even is oneness with the divine,

the movement from God to Godhead. though not articulated in

contemplative literature, Christ dramatized this experience on the

cross for all ages to see and ponder. Where Buddha described the

experience, Christ manifested it without words; yet they both make

the same statement and reveal the same truth - that ultimately,

eternal life is beyond self or consciousness. After one has seen it

manifested or heard it said, the only thing left is to experience it.

 

You mention in 'The Path to No-Self' that the unitive state is

the " true state in which God intended every person to live his mature

years " . Yet so few of us ever achieve this unitive state. What is it

about the way we live right now that prevents us from doing so? Do

you think it is our preoccupation with material success, technology,

and personal accomplishment?

 

First of all, I think there are more people in the state of oneness

than we realize. For everyone we hear about there are thousands we

will never hear about. Believing this state to be a rare achievement

can be an impediment in itself. Unfortunately, those who write about

it have a way of making it sound more extraordinary and blissful that

it commonly is, an so false expectations are another impediment - we

keep waiting and looking for an experience or state that never comes.

 

But if I had to put my finger on the primary obstacle, I wouls say it

is having wrong views of the journey. Paradoxical though it may seem,

the passage through consciousness or self moves contrary to self,

rubs it the wrong way - and in the end, will even rub it out. Because

this passage goes against the grain of self, it is, therefore, a path

of suffering. Both Christ and Buddha saw the passage as one of

suffering, and basically found identical ways out. What they

discovered and revealed to us was that each of us has within himself

or herself a " stillpoint " - comparable, perhaps to the eye of a

cyclone, a spot or center of calm, imperturbability, and non-

movement. Buddha articulated this central eye in negative terms

as " emptiness " or " void " , a refuge from the swirling cyclone of

endless suffering. Christ articulated the eye in more positive terms

as the " Kingdom of God " or the " Spirit within " , a place of refuge and

salvation from a suffering self. For both of them, the easy out was

first to find that stillpoint and then, by attaching ourselves to it,

by becoming one with it, to find a stabilizing, balanced anchor in

our lives. After that, the cyclone is gradually draw into the eye,

and the suffering self comes to an end. And when there is no longer a

cyclone, there is also no longer an eye.

 

So the storms, crises, and sufferings of life are a way of finding

the eye. When everything is going our way, we do not see the eye, and

we feel no need to find it. But when everything is going against us,

then we find the eye. so the avoidance of suffering and the desire to

have everything go our own way runs contrary to the whole movement of

our journey; it is all a wrong view. With the right view, however,

one should be able to come to the state of oneness in six or seven

years - years not merely of suffering, but years of enlightenment,

for right suffering is the essence of enlightenment.

 

Because self is everyone's experience underlying all culture, I do

not regard cultural wrong views as an excuse for not searching out

right views. After all, each peson's passage is his or her own; there

is no such thing as a collective passage.

--------------------------

Stephan has a neat website today covering many aspects and people of

enlightenment: http://www.stephanbodian.org/index.html

 

_-_- Bernadette Roberts is really wonderful, and

mayhaps we can meet at the retreat.....bob

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Bob N. " <Roberibus111 wrote:

>

 

> Since God is at work in every soul, it is up to each of us to

> give our own account, no one else can do this for us " . (from the

> introduction)

>

 

I thought it was a vacation, no wonder I've been goofing off all these

years!

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Hur " <hur wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Bob N. " <Roberibus111@> wrote:

> >

>

> > Since God is at work in every soul, it is up to each of us to

> > give our own account, no one else can do this for us " . (from the

> > introduction)

> >

>

> I thought it was a vacation, no wonder I've been goofing off all

these

> years!

>

When you are right you are right dear Lord. I've read your secret

Testament:

a. Dip people under water until they agree with you and are thus

baptized.

b. celebrate your birthday with decorated trees and gifts for

ourselves. No birthday cards required.

c. Remember your departure with chocalate eggs delivered by rabbits

as you liked rabbits.

d. Go to church on Sundays as you have other hobbies to attend to on

Saturdays.

e. Join boards of non-duality for a refreshingly different take on

what it's really all about.

f. Leave Dad alone..he's on vacation

Mo Tat Tas..( " His " Personal Rap Fave)

oops that's Om Tat Sat...J. was a bit dislexy too!...bob

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Bob N. " <Roberibus111 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Hur " <hur@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Bob N. " <Roberibus111@> wrote:

> > >

> >

> > > Since God is at work in every soul, it is up to each of us to

> > > give our own account, no one else can do this for us " . (from the

> > > introduction)

> > >

> >

> > I thought it was a vacation, no wonder I've been goofing off all

> these

> > years!

> >

> When you are right you are right dear Lord. I've read your secret

> Testament:

> a. Dip people under water until they agree with you and are thus

> baptized.

> b. celebrate your birthday with decorated trees and gifts for

> ourselves. No birthday cards required.

> c. Remember your departure with chocalate eggs delivered by rabbits

> as you liked rabbits.

> d. Go to church on Sundays as you have other hobbies to attend to on

> Saturdays.

> e. Join boards of non-duality for a refreshingly different take on

> what it's really all about.

> f. Leave Dad alone..he's on vacation

> Mo Tat Tas..( " His " Personal Rap Fave)

> oops that's Om Tat Sat...J. was a bit dislexy too!...bob

>

 

 

 

.........and that face is beginning to look a lot like mine....:-)

 

 

toombaru