Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 In a message dated 3/11/2006 2:20:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 01:12:13 -0000 " toombaru2006 " <lastrain Re: Summary of spirituality. Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > Fri, 10 Mar 2006 23:12:13 -0000 > " lissbon2002 " <_lissbon2002_ > (lissbon2002) > > Re: Summary of spirituality. > > _Nisargadatta _ (Nisargadatta ) , > " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > wrote: > > > > [To me] spirituality can be summed up in 2 sentences: > > > > - Are you Happy? > > o If not... start investigating " why not " ! > > > > > OK. First answer would usually be: > Because I often cannot get what I want. > > What´s next? > > Len > > Next question is: What if you didn't want anything? Would you be happy then? > > Phil > > There would still be a you........whose desire is for nothing. toombaru How about a 'you' who desires exactly what's being experienced? What then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 In a message dated 3/11/2006 2:20:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:21:37 +0100 (CET) OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: Re: Summary of spirituality. --- toombaru2006 <lastrain a écrit : Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > > > [To me] spirituality can be summed up in 2 > sentences: > > > > - Are you Happy? > > o If not... start investigating " why not " ! > > > > > OK. First answer would usually be: > Because I often cannot get what I want. > > What´s next? > > Len > > Next question is: What if you didn't want anything? > Would you be happy then? > > Phil >.......................................... This is a summary that works for me : > Fully enjoy the moment. I mean FULLY.. > Give it all to the moment..and there is no where else > to go. > Patricia there is no how in the moment, my dearest. > Any attempt to 'fully enjoy the moment' will fail. (all attempts to change an illusory condition fail)..... How does one know for sure if they are fully enjoying anything? toombaru .............................................. there is no how in the moment, my dearest. And there can be no attempt either, it only takes diving. Divine diving to you of you dare! Patricia " Divine diving " . Hmmmmm...... :::::Putting on my scuba suit:::::: Isn't it ironic that eliminating the undesirable simply means desiring it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 In a message dated 3/11/2006 6:11:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, ADHHUB writes: > How about a 'you' who desires exactly what's being experienced? What then? L.E: If there is a ''you{ " there, there is no way to experience exactly what is being experienced. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 In a message dated 3/11/2006 9:26:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:01:04 EST epston Re: Summary of spirituality In a message dated 3/11/2006 6:11:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, ADHHUB writes: > How about a 'you' who desires exactly what's being experienced? What then? L.E: If there is a ''you{ " there, there is no way to experience exactly what is being experienced. Larry Do you mean 'desire' what's being experienced? If not, I don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 In a message dated 3/11/2006 9:51:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, ADHHUB writes: > > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 9:26:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:01:04 EST > epston > Re: Summary of spirituality > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 6:11:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, > ADHHUB > writes: > > >How about a 'you' who desires exactly what's being experienced? What > then? > > L.E: If there is a ''you{ " there, there is no way to experience exactly > what > is being experienced. > > Larry > > > > Do you mean 'desire' what's being experienced? If not, I don't understand. > L.E: The problem is with the 'you, " the self, the ego. It is the " you " and the self or the ego that gets in the way of direct experiene, or experience without an experiencer Direct perception. Or being in the here and now present. Larry Epston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 2:20:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Sat, 11 Mar 2006 01:12:13 -0000 > " toombaru2006 " <lastrain > Re: Summary of spirituality. > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > Fri, 10 Mar 2006 23:12:13 -0000 > > " lissbon2002 " <_lissbon2002@_ > > (lissbon2002@) > > > Re: Summary of spirituality. > > > > _Nisargadatta _ > (Nisargadatta ) , > > " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > > wrote: > > > > > > [To me] spirituality can be summed up in 2 sentences: > > > > > > - Are you Happy? > > > o If not... start investigating " why not " ! > > > > > > > > > OK. First answer would usually be: > > Because I often cannot get what I want. > > > > What´s next? > > > > Len > > > > Next question is: What if you didn't want anything? Would you be happy > then? > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > There would still be a you........whose desire is for nothing. > > > > toombaru > > > > How about a 'you' who desires exactly what's being experienced? What then? > Same (no)thing. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 2:20:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:21:37 +0100 (CET) > OConnor Patricia <gdtige > RE: Re: Summary of spirituality. > > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain a écrit : > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia > <gdtige@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > [To me] spirituality can be summed up in 2 > > sentences: > > > > > > - Are you Happy? > > > o If not... start investigating " why not " ! > > > > > > > > > OK. First answer would usually be: > > Because I often cannot get what I want. > > > > What´s next? > > > > Len > > > > Next question is: What if you didn't want anything? > > Would you be happy then? > > > > Phil > >.......................................... > > This is a summary that works for me : > > Fully enjoy the moment. I mean FULLY.. > > Give it all to the moment..and there is no where > else > > to go. > > Patricia > > there is no how in the moment, my dearest. > > > > > > > Any attempt to 'fully enjoy the moment' will fail. > > (all attempts to change an illusory condition > fail)..... > > How does one know for sure if they are fully enjoying > anything? > > toombaru > ............................................. > there is no how in the moment, my dearest. > And there can be no attempt either, it only takes > diving. > Divine diving to you of you dare! > Patricia > > My dear.............there is no moment. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 9:48:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 02:29:33 EST epston Re: Summary of spirituality In a message dated 3/11/2006 9:51:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, ADHHUB writes: > > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 9:26:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:01:04 EST > epston > Re: Summary of spirituality > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 6:11:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, > ADHHUB > writes: > > >How about a 'you' who desires exactly what's being experienced? What > then? > > L.E: If there is a ''you{ " there, there is no way to experience exactly > what > is being experienced. > > Larry > > > > Do you mean 'desire' what's being experienced? If not, I don't understand. > L.E: The problem is with the 'you, " the self, the ego. It is the " you " and the self or the ego that gets in the way of direct experiene, or experience without an experiencer Direct perception. Or being in the here and now present. Larry Epston " Experience without an experiencer " ? Is that the story you're stickin to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 4:31:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, ADHHUB writes: > " Experience without an experiencer " ? Is that the story you're stickin to? > > > L.E: That's just an external verbal description. Don't let it bother you. And, what are you stuck in? Throw a ball against a wall. Empty some water into a well. Yell hello into a canyon. Experience without an experiecer. Why isn't that obvious? Larry Epston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 4:23:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 00:09:14 -0000 " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Re: Summary of spirituality. Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > Fri, 10 Mar 2006 23:12:13 -0000 > " lissbon2002 " <_lissbon2002_ > (lissbon2002) > > Re: Summary of spirituality. > > _Nisargadatta _ (Nisargadatta ) , > " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > wrote: > > > > [To me] spirituality can be summed up in 2 sentences: > > > > - Are you Happy? > > o If not... start investigating " why not " ! > > > > > OK. First answer would usually be: > Because I often cannot get what I want. > > What´s next? > > Len > > Next question is: What if you didn't want anything? Would you be happy then? > > Phil Hypothetical question cannot be answered unless through imagination. Next question: Is it possible not to get what I want and still be happy? How do I do that? Len No, it's not, because you would still want, which is what the " hypothetical " question would have answered for you had you tried. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/12/2006 4:23:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Mon, 13 Mar 2006 00:09:14 -0000 > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 > Re: Summary of spirituality. > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > Fri, 10 Mar 2006 23:12:13 -0000 > > " lissbon2002 " <_lissbon2002@_ > > (lissbon2002@) > > > Re: Summary of spirituality. > > > > _Nisargadatta _ > (Nisargadatta ) , > > " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > > wrote: > > > > > > [To me] spirituality can be summed up in 2 sentences: > > > > > > - Are you Happy? > > > o If not... start investigating " why not " ! > > > > > > > > > OK. First answer would usually be: > > Because I often cannot get what I want. > > > > What´s next? > > > > Len > > > > Next question is: What if you didn't want anything? Would you be > happy then? > > > > Phil > > > Hypothetical question cannot be answered unless through imagination. > Next question: > Is it possible not to get what I want and still be happy? > How do I do that? > > Len > > > > No, it's not, because you would still want, which is what the " hypothetical " > question would have answered for you had you tried. > > Phil Explain please. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 In a message dated 3/14/2006 7:56:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 00:37:27 -0000 " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Re: Summary of spirituality Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/12/2006 4:23:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Mon, 13 Mar 2006 00:09:14 -0000 > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 > Re: Summary of spirituality. > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > Fri, 10 Mar 2006 23:12:13 -0000 > > " lissbon2002 " <_lissbon2002@_ > > (lissbon2002@) > > > Re: Summary of spirituality. > > > > _Nisargadatta _ > (Nisargadatta ) , > > " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > > wrote: > > > > > > [To me] spirituality can be summed up in 2 sentences: > > > > > > - Are you Happy? > > > o If not... start investigating " why not " ! > > > > > > > > > OK. First answer would usually be: > > Because I often cannot get what I want. > > > > What´s next? > > > > Len > > > > Next question is: What if you didn't want anything? Would you be > happy then? > > > > Phil > > > Hypothetical question cannot be answered unless through imagination. > Next question: > Is it possible not to get what I want and still be happy? > How do I do that? > > Len > > > > No, it's not, because you would still want, which is what the " hypothetical " > question would have answered for you had you tried. > > Phil Explain please. Len Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. Fulfillment is relative in the relative illusion, and therefore can never remain. The surrender of want, is the only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy that was always the ground of our being, beyond the illusions of need. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. I question this. A desire that can be fulfilled doesn´t cause unhappiness. Only unfulfilled desires might do that. Many desires must be fulfilled in order to have a decent life, like a desire for a roof above your head or water and food. > Fulfillment is relative in the > relative illusion, and therefore can never remain. Satisfaction fades away and there is longing for a new satisfaction. And so it goes on. > The surrender of want, is the > only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy that was always the ground of > our being, beyond the illusions of need. Be careful not to repeat something you´ve read but which isn´t your immediate experience. Let´s stay here for a while with attention. Did the want in your life surrender or are you trying to surender in order to avoid pain of unfulfilled desire? I´ve asked the same question to Arvind I think. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. > > > I question this. > A desire that can be fulfilled doesn´t cause unhappiness. > Only unfulfilled desires might do that. > Many desires must be fulfilled in order to have a decent life, like > a desire for a roof above your head or water and food. > > > > > Fulfillment is relative in the > > relative illusion, and therefore can never remain. > > > > > Satisfaction fades away and there is longing for a new satisfaction. > And so it goes on. > > > > > The surrender of want, is the > > only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy that was always > the ground of > > our being, beyond the illusions of need. > > > > Be careful not to repeat something you´ve read but which isn´t your > immediate experience. Everything spoken is a repeat..........There is no such thing as direct experience. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 --- toombaru2006 <lastrain a écrit : Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. > > > I question this. > A desire that can be fulfilled doesn´t cause unhappiness. > Only unfulfilled desires might do that. > Many desires must be fulfilled in order to have a decent life, like > a desire for a roof above your head or water and food. > > > > > Fulfillment is relative in the > > relative illusion, and therefore can never remain. > > > > > Satisfaction fades away and there is longing for a new satisfaction. > And so it goes on. > > > > > The surrender of want, is the > > only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy that was always > the ground of > > our being, beyond the illusions of need. > > > > Be careful not to repeat something you´ve read but which isn´t your > immediate experience. Everything spoken is a repeat..........There is no such thing as direct experience. toombaru ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 > > > > Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. > > > I question this. > A desire that can be fulfilled doesn´t cause unhappiness. > Only unfulfilled desires might do that. > Many desires must be fulfilled in order to have a decent life, like > a desire for a roof above your head or water and food. > > > > > Fulfillment is relative in the > > relative illusion, and therefore can never remain. > > > > > Satisfaction fades away and there is longing for a new satisfaction. > And so it goes on. > > > > > The surrender of want, is the > > only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy that was always > the ground of > > our being, beyond the illusions of need. > > > > Be careful not to repeat something you´ve read but which isn´t your > immediate experience. Everything spoken is a repeat..........There is no such thing as direct experience. toombaru Talk for yourself.. Look a little harder, Find the taste of direct experience, Feel a connection that no-one has brought to you, That comes from utter silence.. Patricia ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. > > > > > > I question this. > > A desire that can be fulfilled doesn´t cause > unhappiness. > > Only unfulfilled desires might do that. > > Many desires must be fulfilled in order to have a > decent life, like > > a desire for a roof above your head or water and > food. > > > > > > > > > Fulfillment is relative in the > > > relative illusion, and therefore can never remain. > > > > > > > > > > > Satisfaction fades away and there is longing for a > new satisfaction. > > And so it goes on. > > > > > > > > > The surrender of want, is the > > > only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy > that was always > > the ground of > > > our being, beyond the illusions of need. > > > > > > > > Be careful not to repeat something you´ve read but > which isn´t your > > immediate experience. > > > > > Everything spoken is a repeat..........There is no > such thing as direct experience. > > > toombaru > > Talk for yourself.. > > Look a little harder, > Find the taste of direct experience, > Feel a connection that no-one has brought to you, > That comes from utter silence.. > Patricia > > > Any thing an illusory self 'does' is illusory. That little monkey never was alive...........Its time to stop dressing it up. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 --- toombaru2006 <lastrain a écrit : Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. > > > > > > I question this. > > A desire that can be fulfilled doesn´t cause > unhappiness. > > Only unfulfilled desires might do that. > > Many desires must be fulfilled in order to have a > decent life, like > > a desire for a roof above your head or water and > food. > > > > > > > > > Fulfillment is relative in the > > > relative illusion, and therefore can never remain. > > > > > > > > > > > Satisfaction fades away and there is longing for a > new satisfaction. > > And so it goes on. > > > > > > > > > The surrender of want, is the > > > only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy > that was always > > the ground of > > > our being, beyond the illusions of need. > > > > > > > > Be careful not to repeat something you´ve read but > which isn´t your > > immediate experience. > > > > > Everything spoken is a repeat..........There is no > such thing as direct experience. > > > toombaru > > Talk for yourself.. > > Look a little harder, > Find the taste of direct experience, > Feel a connection that no-one has brought to you, > That comes from utter silence.. > Patricia > > > Any thing an illusory self 'does' is illusory. That little monkey never was alive...........Its time to stop dressing it up. toombaru it is not about the monkey and I`ll keep looking a little harder...because... Find why because I can`t tell.. Patricia ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:11:24 -0000 " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Re: Summary of spirituality > Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. I question this. A desire that can be fulfilled doesn´t cause unhappiness. Only unfulfilled desires might do that. Many desires must be fulfilled in order to have a decent life, like a desire for a roof above your head or water and food. Yes, that's more betterer. Unfulfilled want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. > The surrender of want, is the > only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy that was always the ground of > our being, beyond the illusions of need. Be careful not to repeat something you´ve read but which isn´t your immediate experience. Let´s stay here for a while with attention. Did the want in your life surrender or are you trying to surender in order to avoid pain of unfulfilled desire? I´ve asked the same question to Arvind I think. Len Not much of a reader, Len, but it's true that I sometimes write about things that I 'see' but do not fully experience. Perhaps this is no worse to you than quoting from a book, but I don't really have the interest in analyzing what is, and isn't an acceptable and honest expression here. Pete has done something similar in challenging my credentials in the field of neuroscience. The same answer applies here; feel free to respond to the content because I have no intention of including references. Having said that, there is no " trying to surrender " , although surrender, as a correction, and acceptance, as an attitude, is the only way. There are dozens of iterations of surrender and many traps, and I could write endlessly about it because I've tried them all and fallen into every trap. The body, of course, does not cease to need physically, nor does the heart cease to need nourishment. These things don't stop and don't need to stop. The body is cared for and needs that were once a source of concern are somehow fulfilled without concern. There is a deep peace that waxes and wanes and a joy that does the same. Neither of them ever leave me entirely. Daily, I cry tears of joy, wonder and gratitude. I also cry from a deeper place, but I can't call it sadness. What it is, is a deep, bittersweet longing. I've never been so absent in my life, and I've never lived so fully. Or perhaps 'being lived' is more appropriate. I say all that because I truly wish for you to believe this, for whatever reason: It's your destiny to simply accept what is. It can't be any simpler than that. Phil In a message dated 3/15/2006 7:12:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:11:24 -0000 " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Re: Summary of spirituality Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. I question this. A desire that can be fulfilled doesn´t cause unhappiness. Only unfulfilled desires might do that. Many desires must be fulfilled in order to have a decent life, like a desire for a roof above your head or water and food. > Fulfillment is relative in the > relative illusion, and therefore can never remain. Satisfaction fades away and there is longing for a new satisfaction. And so it goes on. > The surrender of want, is the > only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy that was always the ground of > our being, beyond the illusions of need. Be careful not to repeat something you´ve read but which isn´t your immediate experience. Let´s stay here for a while with attention. Did the want in your life surrender or are you trying to surender in order to avoid pain of unfulfilled desire? I´ve asked the same question to Arvind I think. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 In a message dated 3/15/2006 1:38:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:10:45 -0000 " toombaru2006 " <lastrain Re: Summary of spirituality Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Want/desire is the cause of unhappiness. > > > > > > I question this. > > A desire that can be fulfilled doesn´t cause > unhappiness. > > Only unfulfilled desires might do that. > > Many desires must be fulfilled in order to have a > decent life, like > > a desire for a roof above your head or water and > food. > > > > > > > > > Fulfillment is relative in the > > > relative illusion, and therefore can never remain. > > > > > > > > > > > Satisfaction fades away and there is longing for a > new satisfaction. > > And so it goes on. > > > > > > > > > The surrender of want, is the > > > only happiness. This reveals a nondualistic joy > that was always > > the ground of > > > our being, beyond the illusions of need. > > > > > > > > Be careful not to repeat something you´ve read but > which isn´t your > > immediate experience. > > > > > Everything spoken is a repeat..........There is no > such thing as direct experience. > > > toombaru > > Talk for yourself.. > > Look a little harder, > Find the taste of direct experience, > Feel a connection that no-one has brought to you, > That comes from utter silence.. > Patricia > > > Any thing an illusory self 'does' is illusory. That little monkey never was alive...........Its time to stop dressing it up. toombaru It's not aliveness to which Patricia is referring. It's experience. Who told you that you had to be alive in order for experience to occur? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: Hi Phil, > Not much of a reader, Len, but it's true that I sometimes write about things > that I 'see' but do not fully experience. Perhaps this is no worse to you > than quoting from a book, but I don't really have the interest in analyzing what > is, and isn't an acceptable and honest expression here. To me it´s not a matter of what is acceptable, but we must be clear about whether what we talk about is real for us or just a kind of hope/belief. The difference is crucial, would you agree? > Pete has done > something similar in challenging my credentials in the field of neuroscience. The > same answer applies here; feel free to respond to the content because I have > no intention of including references. > > Having said that, there is no " trying to surrender " , although surrender, as > a correction, and acceptance, as an attitude, is the only way. How do you know that? > There are > dozens of iterations of surrender and many traps, and I could write endlessly > about it because I've tried them all and fallen into every trap. > > The body, of course, does not cease to need physically, nor does the heart > cease to need nourishment. These things don't stop and don't need to stop. The > body is cared for and needs that were once a source of concern are somehow > fulfilled without concern. There is a deep peace that waxes and wanes and a joy > that does the same. Neither of them ever leave me entirely. Daily, I cry > tears of joy, wonder and gratitude. I also cry from a deeper place, but I can't > call it sadness. What it is, is a deep, bittersweet longing. I've never been > so absent in my life, and I've never lived so fully. Or perhaps 'being lived' > is more appropriate. > > I say all that because I truly wish for you to believe this, for whatever > reason: It's your destiny to simply accept what is. It can't be any simpler than > that. I´m not much of a believer, Phil ;-) There is beauty when one doesn´t struggle with reality, doesn´t want things to be any different, that´s a fact. At some other moments one might wish for something to happen, and feel frustrated when it doesn´t seem to work. That´s also a fact. I have no idea what my destiny is, how would I know the future? But I did notice that some longings in my life suddenly stopped when I realized that the feeling I hoped to get from some fulfilled wish wasn´t dependent on the external reality. In other words, I didn´t really need the thing that I wanted in order to feel the feeling which I was hoping to get this way. When you see that a feeling of happiness is not dependent on having the thing which you think will give you this feeling, the desire for this thing stops naturally. No need to surrender or accept, you just don´t need this thing anymore to feel happy. Some other times I was observing the pain of the frustration of not having what I wanted. At some point the pain would stop and the need was completely gone. It was clear that I actually needed nothing, except of what I had, to feel perfectly happy, or maybe not happy, it was something else then being happy, and much better :-) Dealing with facts without trying to escape (which some call acceptance or surrender) is quite powerful, I has an energy of its own. But there are some other situations when wanting things seems the most appropriate attitude. Maybe the art is to know when to want and when to let go. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 To me it´s not a matter of what is acceptable, but we must be clear about whether what we talk about is real for us or just a kind of hope/belief. The difference is crucial, would you agree? Yes, but you can't control whether the expressions of others are genuine or not. You have no way of knowing even if you ask. Maybe you just need to see for yourself if it rings true for you or intuitively feels right. Folks are free to express any way they choose and that's what's gonna happen. I have no idea what my destiny is, how would I know the future? We all have the same destiny, whether in this lifetime or another. But I did notice that some longings in my life suddenly stopped when I realized that the feeling I hoped to get from some fulfilled wish wasn´t dependent on the external reality.In other words, I didn´t really need the thing that I wanted in order to feel the feeling which I was hoping to get this way. That's right. That's letting go of need. When you see that a feeling of happiness is not dependent on having the thing which you think will give you this feeling, the desire for this thing stops naturally. No need to surrender or accept, you just don´t need this thing anymore to feel happy. You can say that accepting that your happiness is not dependent upon external needs is not acceptance if you like. It makes not difference if you call it a platypus. At some point the pain would stop and the need was completely gone. It was clear that I actually needed nothing, except of what I had, to feel perfectly happy, or maybe not happy, it was something else then being happy, and much better :-) Maybe peace? But there are some other situations when wanting things seems the most appropriate attitude. Maybe the art is to know when to want and when to let go. So, what's the advantage to this wanting, or why is it " appropriate " ? Phil In a message dated 3/17/2006 1:53:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 23:20:14 -0000 " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Re: Summary of spirituality Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: Hi Phil, > Not much of a reader, Len, but it's true that I sometimes write about things > that I 'see' but do not fully experience. Perhaps this is no worse to you > than quoting from a book, but I don't really have the interest in analyzing what > is, and isn't an acceptable and honest expression here. To me it´s not a matter of what is acceptable, but we must be clear about whether what we talk about is real for us or just a kind of hope/belief. The difference is crucial, would you agree? > Pete has done > something similar in challenging my credentials in the field of neuroscience. The > same answer applies here; feel free to respond to the content because I have > no intention of including references. > > Having said that, there is no " trying to surrender " , although surrender, as > a correction, and acceptance, as an attitude, is the only way. How do you know that? > There are > dozens of iterations of surrender and many traps, and I could write endlessly > about it because I've tried them all and fallen into every trap. > > The body, of course, does not cease to need physically, nor does the heart > cease to need nourishment. These things don't stop and don't need to stop. The > body is cared for and needs that were once a source of concern are somehow > fulfilled without concern. There is a deep peace that waxes and wanes and a joy > that does the same. Neither of them ever leave me entirely. Daily, I cry > tears of joy, wonder and gratitude. I also cry from a deeper place, but I can't > call it sadness. What it is, is a deep, bittersweet longing. I've never been > so absent in my life, and I've never lived so fully. Or perhaps 'being lived' > is more appropriate. > > I say all that because I truly wish for you to believe this, for whatever > reason: It's your destiny to simply accept what is. It can't be any simpler than > that. I´m not much of a believer, Phil ;-) There is beauty when one doesn´t struggle with reality, doesn´t want things to be any different, that´s a fact. At some other moments one might wish for something to happen, and feel frustrated when it doesn´t seem to work. That´s also a fact. I have no idea what my destiny is, how would I know the future? But I did notice that some longings in my life suddenly stopped when I realized that the feeling I hoped to get from some fulfilled wish wasn´t dependent on the external reality. In other words, I didn´t really need the thing that I wanted in order to feel the feeling which I was hoping to get this way. When you see that a feeling of happiness is not dependent on having the thing which you think will give you this feeling, the desire for this thing stops naturally. No need to surrender or accept, you just don´t need this thing anymore to feel happy. Some other times I was observing the pain of the frustration of not having what I wanted. At some point the pain would stop and the need was completely gone. It was clear that I actually needed nothing, except of what I had, to feel perfectly happy, or maybe not happy, it was something else then being happy, and much better :-) Dealing with facts without trying to escape (which some call acceptance or surrender) is quite powerful, I has an energy of its own. But there are some other situations when wanting things seems the most appropriate attitude. Maybe the art is to know when to want and when to let go. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > At some point the pain would stop and the need was completely gone. > It was clear that I actually needed nothing, except of what I had, > to feel perfectly happy, or maybe not happy, it was something else > then being happy, and much better :-) > > > Maybe peace? Much better then that :-) Amazing energy, not " my " energy, just energy, power, aliveness, that's all I can say. > But there are some other situations when wanting things seems the > most appropriate attitude. Maybe the art is to know when to want and > when to let go. > > > > So, what's the advantage to this wanting, or why is it " appropriate " ? > > Phil Like for instance, being a human, we need a house. To build a house we need planning and a directed effort towards a chronological future. Material things that need to be realized. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 In a message dated 3/18/2006 8:44:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, lissbon2002 writes: > So, what's the advantage to this wanting, or why is > it " appropriate " ? > > > >Phil > > > > Like for instance, being a human, we need a house. > To build a house we need planning and a directed effort towards a > chronological future. Material things that need to be realized. > > Len > > > L.E: It is important to remember that all wants, dreaming, fantasies and > desires all exist in the present and we hold them as long as we prefer. When > the house is built, we don't worry about or feel concerned about, or think > about, building the house anymore. When you don't do that in the present, and > are just present, that's the state of enlightenment. On off, on off on off. > > Larry Epston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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