Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Phil:>Something else shifted for me that night. Ever since then, I've had lucid > dreams. It's a wonderful experience to be able to create whatever I want with > just a thought, or if I choose, simply allow the dream to follow it's own > course and surprise me. Imagine that; I'm creating the dream, and yet I'm > surprising myself with my own creations. Hmmm...... Delightful. > > > > >>Somehow captured the 'open-endedness' of being with words..... >>Delightful. >>>toombaru hey, T. didn't you just say there is no choice, we're all so much flotsam and afterthought in the wake of a wave, so to speak? (I'd click on it but I'm too lazy to hunt the post down.) I'm curious to know how you get from that to this comment and then back again. Phil, the place of choice you describe can only be tapped into when a person takes focus out of the linear time line; the linear where non-choice advocates focus on into the non-linear. The choice versus nonchoice / determinist versus free will debate has raged on for aeons. There is that space where there the focus is not on linear time and so it all really does mesh together, not as fragmented and separated aspects of something having been done (past) and therefore humanity is without choice in the present afterwake of something that has already been. In the non-linear space it is truly not separated in the manner that Toombaroos other posts, and other determinist advocates propose. In that space where it all does come together – without separation – it is all the same thing so there is no real focus on dwelling on the after effect, which is where T. and others dwell in the deterministic/nonchoice angle. Still Toombaru, within your angle you focus either on emotional extremes of peace/love sensations or then other sensations/feelings of fear/mysery. What's the difference between engaging in the love sensation you so prettily described in your other post on love as opposed to the mysery sensations you have often described in past? One gives overwhelming tears of joy and the other overwhelming tears of pain and mysery and then a myriad of levels thereof in between. And there you remain, always helpless as the flotsam after experience of the wave in a linear space. Yes Phil, there is that space where it is combined and in the nonlinear it comes together as you've mentioned. Nothing to do with ego trying to bolster its existence – it's just what IT is. If that space isn't focused on then the result is the non-linear space where all experiences are pulled apart and analyzed as *other than* - in a past tense of having no choice having been determined by (?) and that big question mark is always the thing that then spurs the search. The quest to understand. It's the ego that is needed to stay in the non-linear/nonchoice focus and not the other way around (the ego is what makes people think they have choice) as many people on this board claim. In that state where You are creating the dream it is just You, Original Energy, and the after wake of it is still You, focusing on that after effect brings on that separated sense in the analysis of it all and yet when you shift the focus back to the non-linear – it is only still and just - You. Creating. Then the non-linear aspect looks to see what is creating and why and can it be real and no it can't be real…….. ad infitinty….. where when Phil shifts back into the non-linear You there is no one else creating, no someone who debates that there is no choice – just You with all kinds of varied responses. Nothing to do with ego at all. It has to do with You as this Origin. It was always only You, and then all the little non-linear me's and you's that let us perceive it all. So, there's nothing wrong at all with focusing attention on linear as humans comprehend it, it's just that until the focus is put on Non-linear this state you describe, is unknown and so the one who hears it, whose attention is on non-linear, will say, NO it's ego - we have no choice – and to that I say, that's right, *you* in your focus has no choice. If *you* focus into *YOU* (that non separation jargon that gets chatted about) then you will get the *YOU* aspect that involves creating and choice – origin of choice – because if there truly is no separation then it also follows that you are also the ORIGIN. And in that origin focus is the creation, the choice. It's in separating away from through focus that it gets blurred and not comprehended. It doesn't matter if it isn't real. Then the person who focuses on the linear aspect will get caught up in saying something like, there is no creation and no destruction, all the while feeling at the mercy, helpless to some sort of experience this person finds itself in and denying it as illusion and not real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 My lady and I went for a walk today, and discussed the idea that all possibilities exist as a potential until we choose one to show up in our experience. As we walked through the neighborhood, we took turns 'window shopping' in the nonlinear for something to bring into our experience, and on 3 or 4 occasions, that thing showed up down the road, sometimes only slightly distorted by what was pictured in mind. I haven't had much to say here about the dismissal of personal choice and volition, since in the context of ego, I have no disagreement. Howsoever, there is a larger perspective. One doesn't need to insist on an egoic identity in order to know that existence IS, and it's not necessary to beat illusion to a bloody pulp, just simply recognize it for what it is. Existence is. Choices are. Life is lived. Something is doing that, and I Am That, as are You. I'm getting quite familiar with peeking behind the curtain of the Great Oz and seeing how the levers are pulled, but I'll be damned if I can see this Ozness in it's Totality, and know that I Am That, and God dammit, it's breaking my heart! (Thanks Samantha) Phil In a message dated 3/12/2006 9:48:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 07:31:29 -0000 " sam_t_7 " <sam_t_7 Re: One Human Organism-No Ego Phil/Toombaru Phil:>Something else shifted for me that night. Ever since then, I've had lucid > dreams. It's a wonderful experience to be able to create whatever I want with > just a thought, or if I choose, simply allow the dream to follow it's own > course and surprise me. Imagine that; I'm creating the dream, and yet I'm > surprising myself with my own creations. Hmmm...... Delightful. > > > > >>Somehow captured the 'open-endedness' of being with words..... >>Delightful. >>>toombaru hey, T. didn't you just say there is no choice, we're all so much flotsam and afterthought in the wake of a wave, so to speak? (I'd click on it but I'm too lazy to hunt the post down.) I'm curious to know how you get from that to this comment and then back again. Phil, the place of choice you describe can only be tapped into when a person takes focus out of the linear time line; the linear where non-choice advocates focus on. And the choice versus nonchoice / determinist versus free will debate has raged on for aeons. There is that space where there the focus is not on linear time and so it all really does mesh together, not as fragmented and separated aspects of something having been done (past) and therefore humanity is without choice in the present afterwake of something that has already been. In the non-linear space it is truly not separated in the manner that Toombaroos other posts, and other determinist advocates propose. In that space where it all does come together – without separation – it is all the same thing so there is no real focus on dwelling on the after effect, which is where T. and others dwell in the deterministic/nonchoice angle. Still Toombaru, within your angle you focus either on emotional extremes of peace/love sensations or then other sensations/feelings of fear/mysery. What's the difference between engaging in the love sensation you so prettily described in your other post on love as opposed to the mysery sensations you have often described in past? One gives overwhelming tears of joy and the other overwhelming tears of pain and mysery and then a myriad of levels thereof in between. And there you remain, always helpless as the flotsam after experience of the wave in a linear space. Yes Phil, there is that space where it is combined and in the nonlinear it comes together as you've mentioned. Nothing to do with ego trying to bolster its existence – it's just what IT is. If that space isn't focused on then the result is the non-linear space where all experiences are pulled apart and analyzed as *other than* - in a past tense of having no choice having been determined by (?) and that big question mark is always the thing that then spurs the search. The quest to understand. It's the ego that is needed to stay in the non-linear/nonchoice focus and not the other way around (the ego is what makes people think they have choice) as many people on this board claim. In that state where You are creating the dream it is just You, Original Energy, and the after wake of it is still You, focusing on that after effect brings on that separated sense in the analysis of it all and yet when you shift the focus back to the non-linear – it is only still and just - You. Creating. Then the non-linear aspect looks to see what is creating and why and can it be real and no it can't be real…….. ad infitinty….. where when Phil shifts back into the non-linear You there is no one else creating, no someone who debates that there is no choice – just You with all kinds of varied responses. Nothing to do with ego at all. It has to do with You as this Origin. It was always only You, and then all the little non-linear me's and you's that let us perceive it all. So, there's nothing wrong at all with focusing attention on linear as humans comprehend it, it's just that until the focus is put on Non-linear this state you describe, is unknown and so the one who hears it, whose attention is on non-linear, will say, NO it's ego - we have no choice – and to that I say, that's right, *you* in your focus has no choice. If *you* focus into *YOU* (that non separation jargon that gets chatted about) then you will get the *YOU* aspect that involves creating and choice – origin of choice – because if there truly is no separation then it also follows that you are also the ORIGIN. And in that origin focus is the creation, the choice. It's in separating away from through focus that it gets blurred and not comprehended. It doesn't matter if it isn't real. Then the person who focuses on the linear aspect will get caught up in saying something like, there is no creation and no destruction, all the while feeling at the mercy, helpless to some sort of experience this person finds itself in and denying it as illusion and not real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " sam_t_7 " <sam_t_7 wrote: > > Phil:>Something else shifted for me that night. Ever since then, > I've had lucid > > dreams. It's a wonderful experience to be able to create whatever > I want with > > just a thought, or if I choose, simply allow the dream to follow > it's own > > course and surprise me. Imagine that; I'm creating the dream, and > yet I'm > > surprising myself with my own creations. Hmmm...... > Delightful. > > > > > > > > > >>Somehow captured the 'open-endedness' of being with words..... > >>Delightful. > >>>toombaru > > > hey, T. didn't you just say there is no choice, I said that here is no such thing as choice.....nor any thing that could have it. we're all so much > flotsam and afterthought in the wake of a wave, so to speak? We are also the wave...the ocean......and the vastness in which it all floats....and doesn't. (I'd > click on it but I'm too lazy to hunt the post down.) I'm curious > to know how you get from that to this comment and then back > again. You want consistency....from that whose origin confusion? > > Phil, the place of choice you describe can only be tapped into when > a person takes focus out of the linear time line; the linear where > non-choice advocates focus on into the non-linear. One small step further back....is the solution > > The choice versus nonchoice / > determinist versus free will debate has raged on for aeons. Well.......you'd think that they would have figured it out by now. The reason that they haven't......is because it is an impossible question based on illusory assumptions........goose eggs stuck in a bottle...... > There is that space where there the focus is not on linear time > and so it all really does mesh together, not as fragmented and > separated aspects of something having been done (past) and > therefore humanity is without choice in the present afterwake of > something that has already been. In the non-linear space it is > truly not separated in the manner that Toombaroos other posts, and > other determinist advocates propose. You attempt to make sense out of a world made up entirely of nothing but your own post its. You arrange and stack nothing but post its...in a futile attempt to reach the moon. In that space where it all > does come together – without separation – it is all the same thing > so there is no real focus on dwelling on the after effect, which is > where T. and others dwell in the deterministic/nonchoice angle. Toombaru is merely one of you 500.000 or so post its. > > Still Toombaru, within your angle you focus either on emotional > extremes of peace/love sensations or then other sensations/feelings > of fear/mysery. You have no idea of what 'I " am after the information about 'me' passes that elaborate filter system that you call 'your' brain. What's the difference between engaging in the > love sensation you so prettily described in your other post on love > as opposed to the mysery sensations you have often described in > past? One gives overwhelming tears of joy and the other > overwhelming tears of pain and mysery and then a myriad of levels > thereof in between. The world is exactly half up.......and half down. And there you remain, always helpless as the > flotsam after experience of the wave in a linear space. > > Yes Phil, there is that space where it is combined and in the > nonlinear The brain is far too complex for the brain to understand......Yet it assumes that it can talk of 'space' and 'non-linear' space. It;s a funny little monkey. it comes together as you've mentioned. Nothing to do > with ego trying to bolster its existence – it's just what IT is. > If that space isn't focused on then the result is the non-linear > space where all experiences are pulled apart and analyzed as *other > than* - in a past tense of having no choice having been determined > by (?) and that big question mark is always the thing that then > spurs the search. The quest to understand. It's the ego that is > needed to stay in the non-linear/nonchoice focus and not the other > way around (the ego is what makes people think they have choice) as > many people on this board claim. The " ego' and the 'people' are the same illusion. > > In that state where You are creating the dream it is just You, > Original Energy, and the after wake of it is still You, focusing on > that after effect brings on that separated sense in the analysis of > it all and yet when you shift the focus back to the non-linear – it > is only still and just - You. Creating. > > Then the non-linear aspect looks to see what is creating and why and > can it be real and no it can't be real…….. ad infitinty….. where > when Phil shifts back into the non-linear You there is no one else > creating, no someone who debates that there is no choice – just You > with all kinds of varied responses. Nothing to do with ego at > all. It has to do with You as this Origin. It was always only > You, and then all the little non-linear me's and you's that let us > perceive it all. So, there's nothing wrong at all with focusing > attention on linear as humans comprehend it, it's just that until > the focus is put on Non-linear this state you describe, is unknown > and so the one who hears it, whose attention is on non-linear, will > say, NO it's ego - we have no choice – and to that I say, that's > right, *you* in your focus has no choice. If *you* focus into > *YOU* (that non separation jargon that gets chatted about) then > you will get the *YOU* aspect that involves creating and choice – > origin of choice – because if there truly is no separation then it > also follows that you are also the ORIGIN. And in that origin > focus is the creation, the choice. It's in separating away from > through focus that it gets blurred and not comprehended. It > doesn't matter if it isn't real. Then the person who focuses on the > linear aspect will get caught up in saying something like, there is > no creation and no destruction, all the while feeling at the mercy, > helpless to some sort of experience this person finds itself in and > denying it as illusion and not real. > Sorry......I can't make it through the rest. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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