Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 8:23:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, lastrain writes: > let's take the example of > >a drop of water sliding down a window pane. > >It's obvious the drop has no volition, yet > >its descend has several possibilities: > >It can descend in a straight line, it can > >veer to left, or right, or it can meander > >down. > > > >These different paths depend on how many > >particles of dust, or other drops it > >collides with, it depends on the wind, > >the smoothness of the glass, etc. > > > >Suppose, the drop had a brain that would > >interpreted gravity, and its own veering > >under the influence of wind, and dust as > >its own doing. Then the drop could > >conclude, like people do, that it does > >have free will. > > > >Pete > > > > > L.E: The drop has infinite possibilities for its path Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 8:23:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, lastrain writes: > let's take the example of > >a drop of water sliding down a window pane. > >It's obvious the drop has no volition, yet > >its descend has several possibilities: > >It can descend in a straight line, it can > >veer to left, or right, or it can meander > >down. > > > >These different paths depend on how many > >particles of dust, or other drops it > >collides with, it depends on the wind, > >the smoothness of the glass, etc. > > > >Suppose, the drop had a brain that would > >interpreted gravity, and its own veering > >under the influence of wind, and dust as > >its own doing. Then the drop could > >conclude, like people do, that it does > >have free will. > > > >Pete > > > > > > L.E: The drop has infinite possibilities about its path down the glass. > Assuming it has a human brain, it believes that a god is going to guide its > path, or fate or karma is going to influence how it falls, and yet in the midst > of these fantasy pretenses it still claims, like people do, it has free will. > It has no ability to steer the drop which it imagines separate from itself, > and all of its beliefs are false. > > > Larry Epston www.epston.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 P: To control means to check, to test, to verify, to influence > > > > >the direction of change. Yes, that I want to do whenever > > >possible. > > samanthaT7: but hey, didn't I read that you're a proponent of the determinist/no choice angle? How do you convince yourself that you have no choice while you're also trying to influence change? P: Hi Sam, Good question. First, let's say choice always exist, as a variety of outcomes which are possible. I don't belief in pre-determination. What I see is that there is 'no doer' as an entity who lives in the head, and selects one option over another. The brain has different centers which have been pre-programmed by nature, nurture, and random events, and these centers react to the input of the environment. So what I call 'my actions' is how these centers interact with environmental conditions. To understand how there is choice (the possibility of different outcomes without need for a doer) let's take the example of a drop of water sliding down a window pane. It's obvious the drop has no volition, yet its descend has several possibilities: It can descend in a straight line, it can veer to left, or right, or it can meander down. These different paths depend on how many particles of dust, or other drops it collides with, it depends on the wind, the smoothness of the glass, etc. Suppose, the drop had a brain that would interpreted gravity, and its own veering under the influence of wind, and dust as its own doing. Then the drop could conclude, like people do, that it does have free will. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote: > > P: To control means to check, to test, to verify, to influence > > > > > > >the direction of change. Yes, that I want to do whenever > > > >possible. > > > > samanthaT7: but hey, didn't I read that you're a proponent of the > determinist/no choice angle? How do you convince yourself that you > have no choice while you're also trying to influence change? > > P: Hi Sam, Good question. > First, let's say choice always exist, as a > variety of outcomes which are possible. I > don't belief in pre-determination. What I > see is that there is 'no doer' as an entity > who lives in the head, and selects one > option over another. > > The brain has different centers which have > been pre-programmed by nature, nurture, and > random events, and these centers react to > the input of the environment. So what I call > 'my actions' is how these centers interact > with environmental conditions. > > To understand how there is choice (the > possibility of different outcomes without > need for a doer) let's take the example of > a drop of water sliding down a window pane. > It's obvious the drop has no volition, yet > its descend has several possibilities: > It can descend in a straight line, it can > veer to left, or right, or it can meander > down. > > These different paths depend on how many > particles of dust, or other drops it > collides with, it depends on the wind, > the smoothness of the glass, etc. > > Suppose, the drop had a brain that would > interpreted gravity, and its own veering > under the influence of wind, and dust as > its own doing. Then the drop could > conclude, like people do, that it does > have free will. > > Pete > > A swing...................and a miss. Pete.........You go to the time out bench....(three minutes). The problem lies in the mentation that not only comes up with the concept 'choice' but also assumes that this made up 'thing' can be applied to an illusory subject. Mixed in that confusing soup....is the assumption of separate 'events'.....that could have somehow turned out differently then they did. Add all that to an illusory 'past' and 'future'.................and............... Well no wonder you are a little confused. The solution to this question lies not on the surface.........but much deeper. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 1:42:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, lastrain writes: > >L.E: The drop has infinite possibilities for its path > > > No.........only one. > > toombaru > > L.E: That can be said only after the fact. But of course there are no > facts. Right? > In a situation of constantly changing variables, where there is no future, > before the drop begins its descent. infinite possibilities exist, although > after it drops and is in motion the perfection of its path can be described as > the only one possible. Maybe. > > Larry Epston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 2:06:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, lastrain writes: > There are no isolated facts......The rain drop.....its motion and the glass > ....are one L.E: You can say that to me, but to our imaginary raindrop that has a human brain, you'll hardly convince it, (him) that it is true. Larry E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 2:50:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, lastrain writes: > When you are in Detroit...........the only thing that you can see is > Detroit. > > toombaru > L.E: When you are in Detroit, you cannot see Detroit. If you look down, you may be able to see your shoes, if you are wearing any. The raindrop if it had a human brain can only see the next dust particle and has no idea where it is. Just like you. Larry Epston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 5:09:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, lastrain writes: > Do you have an idea where you are at? > > > toombaru L.E: I can see my socks Michael. That's all I really have to know at this moment. Larry Epston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 On Mar 12, 2006, at 9:48 AM, Nisargadatta wrote: > The solution to this question lies not on the surface.........but much > deeper. > > > toombaru > > P: LOL It's all surface, you old ninny... surface........ all the way down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/2006 8:23:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, > lastrain writes: > > > let's take the example of > > >a drop of water sliding down a window pane. > > >It's obvious the drop has no volition, yet > > >its descend has several possibilities: > > >It can descend in a straight line, it can > > >veer to left, or right, or it can meander > > >down. > > > > > >These different paths depend on how many > > >particles of dust, or other drops it > > >collides with, it depends on the wind, > > >the smoothness of the glass, etc. > > > > > >Suppose, the drop had a brain that would > > >interpreted gravity, and its own veering > > >under the influence of wind, and dust as > > >its own doing. Then the drop could > > >conclude, like people do, that it does > > >have free will. > > > > > >Pete > > > > > > > > > > L.E: The drop has infinite possibilities for its path > No.........only one. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/2006 1:42:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, > lastrain writes: > > > >L.E: The drop has infinite possibilities for its path > > > > > No.........only one. > > > > toombaru > > > > L.E: That can be said only after the fact. But of course there are no > > facts. Right? There are no isolated facts......The rain drop.....its motion and the glass .....are one > > In a situation of constantly changing variables, where there is no future, > > before the drop begins its descent. infinite possibilities exist, although > > after it drops and is in motion the perfection of its path can be described as > > the only one possible. Maybe. You started to see something..........didn't you? :-) Well............that's about as close as 'you' can get without disappearing. LOL toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 2:18:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:45:06 EST epston Re: Re: Control In a message dated 3/12/2006 8:23:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, lastrain writes: > let's take the example of > >a drop of water sliding down a window pane. > >It's obvious the drop has no volition, yet > >its descend has several possibilities: > >It can descend in a straight line, it can > >veer to left, or right, or it can meander > >down. > > > >These different paths depend on how many > >particles of dust, or other drops it > >collides with, it depends on the wind, > >the smoothness of the glass, etc. > > > >Suppose, the drop had a brain that would > >interpreted gravity, and its own veering > >under the influence of wind, and dust as > >its own doing. Then the drop could > >conclude, like people do, that it does > >have free will. > > > >Pete > > > > > > L.E: The drop has infinite possibilities about its path down the glass. > Assuming it has a human brain, it believes that a god is going to guide its > path, or fate or karma is going to influence how it falls, and yet in the midst > of these fantasy pretenses it still claims, like people do, it has free will. > It has no ability to steer the drop which it imagines separate from itself, > and all of its beliefs are false. > > > Larry Epston So what is the drop, really? Is it the Totality of all that is? If so, is it not doing precisely what it 'chooses' to do? Is it only slightly insane to postulate that, if it had a separate identity, it would be mistaken? It doesn't, therefore it's not. Yes, I understand that was your point. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 7:07:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, ADHHUB writes: > > > > > >L.E: The drop has infinite possibilities about its path down the glass. > > Assuming it has a human brain, it believes that a god is going to guide > its > >path, or fate or karma is going to influence how it falls, and yet in the > midst > >of these fantasy pretenses it still claims, like people do, it has free > will. > >It has no ability to steer the drop which it imagines separate from > itself, > >and all of its beliefs are false. > > > > > >Larry Epston > > > > So what is the drop, really? Is it the Totality of all that is? If so, is > it > not doing precisely what it 'chooses' to do? Is it only slightly insane to > postulate that, if it had a separate identity, it would be mistaken? It > doesn't, therefore it's not. Yes, I understand that was your point. > > Phil > L.E: Please remember this is an imaginary drop that we invented and the drop with a brain is a further variation. A real drop of water sliding down a window is probably of very complex system of forces, physics and chemistry. Hard to talk about actually. It moves in a complex system of changing factors. Does it have a choice? Since it is not conscious, probably, the whole question about choice has no meaning. Perhaps it is a matter of how far from the event the event is being viewed. If you are far away it may look random, but when really close it appears to be choiceless and inevitable. Larry Epston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/2006 2:06:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, > lastrain writes: > > > There are no isolated facts......The rain drop.....its motion and the glass > > ....are one > > L.E: You can say that to me, but to our imaginary raindrop that has a human > brain, you'll hardly convince it, (him) that it is true. > > Larry E. > > When you are in Detroit...........the only thing that you can see is Detroit. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/2006 2:50:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, > lastrain writes: > > > When you are in Detroit...........the only thing that you can see is > > Detroit. > > > > toombaru > > > L.E: When you are in Detroit, you cannot see Detroit. If you look down, you > may be able to see your shoes, if you are wearing any. The raindrop if it had > a human brain can only see the next dust particle and has no idea where it > is. Just like you. > > Larry Epston > Do you have an idea where you are at? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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