Suffering And Pleasure

[Guest guest]

P: Thanks Ts. The above is a good metaphor for: we are

secondhand people living borrowed lives, which of course

is part of the big picture of suffering. As Gene's metaphor:

'Personality is Hell', is a good metaphor for all the repetitive

protective behaviors that aiming at preserving an illusory

image, mainly create a hard to escape circle of pain, called " I. "

 

~~~

 

TS: well pete ...

i agree it's a good metaphor ...

although i wouldn't agree with your 'conclusion'

which seems to be ... [correct me if i'm wrong]

that 'this life' is not real ...

that this life we lead is borrowed ...

that this 'i' is suffering.

this is certainly not my experience.

 

P: Life is real all right (if by real you

mean that it has existence, even if temporary

and conditional) but something could both

exist, and be borrowed in the sense of a

striving to be an imitation of a cultural

model.

 

The sense of selfhood ( " I " ) is the root

of suffering. I'm glad the 'I' and

personality are not a problem for you,

but I bet that was not always the case,

and it's, certainly, not the case for most.

The 'I' and personality, nowadays, aren't

a problem here either, but because all

is well here and now, let's not incur

the 5 naive pseudo enlightenment errors.

 

1) Everyone is enlightened.

 

2) And peace was always the case.

 

3) Because there is no I, suffering doesn't

exist.

 

4) Because there is no " I, "

existence doesn't exist.

 

5) All that is needed for liberation is to

believe those four slogans above.

 

The meaning of " returning to the market

place riding the bull " , is not to naively

proclaim because I'm liberated, you are

all liberated and there is no delusion,

and no suffering, and no one exist

and no thing ever happened. No, it's to

admit that there is no individual

liberation. We return to the market to

put our shoulder to the illusory wheel

crushing our collective illusory chest.

Suffering might be a dream, but it still

hurts. And we can't dismiss the nightmares

of Iraq, the slums of Calcutta, or the

devastation of New Orleans, as non existing.

 

Pete

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Mar 19, 2006, at 12:30 PM, Nisargadatta wrote:

 

>>>> It still hurts,

>>>> specially, physical pain, but mental pain becomes

>>>> such as the sadness of a novel, that even when moving

>>>> us to tears, is nothing personal, nothing lasting.

>>>>

>>>> Pete

>>

>> L.E: Remember that as you someday fade into death.

>>>

>>> Larry Epston

>>

>> P: Are you failing to see that what would be fading

>> is memory itself? If there is still a mind at that moment,

>> I'll try to make it as blank, as death itself.

>>

>>

>> L.E: Are you saying there is no actual physical organism living in the

> present, but only a memory?

 

P: No, I didn't say there is no organism. I said the sense of " I " is

memory (as my life) and that memory is what vanish with death.

 

 

 

> L.E. Whose memory? If you can make your mind blank, who is

> going to make you blank?

 

 

P: Memory is generic, although, it's contents are personal.

 

 

> LE:If you exist as Consciousness Itself are you only a

> memory in Consciousness that will fade away? Yes. I am failing to see

> what you

> are getting at. Are you failing to explain it clearly?

 

P: Yes, I failed, in your case. Are you a face in a mirror?

Consciousness is just the brain's mirror, and what we

call " I " is an image created by memory.