Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-1069 wrote: .... > ************ > > Larry has vividly demonstrated in his posts that he suffers. He's > in the right place. > > Some deny they suffer but betray to the world that they do. Others > proclaim to the world that they suffer but fail to surrender. > > Most fall somewhere in between. > > " Silver " > and where does Niz fall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > ... > > > > ************ > > > > Larry has vividly demonstrated in his posts that he suffers. He's > > in the right place. > > > > Some deny they suffer but betray to the world that they do. Others > > proclaim to the world that they suffer but fail to surrender. > > > > Most fall somewhere in between. > > > > " Silver " > > > > and where does Niz fall? > ********** Niz? I'm not sure. I thought he said he was beyond suffering. So maybe he didn't fall anywhere. Maybe he was in a category all of his own??? Good question. Can you tell me what the answer is now? I hope so because I'm pretty curious myself. :-) " Silver " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-1069 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " > <ericparoissien@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > > ************ > > > > > > Larry has vividly demonstrated in his posts that he suffers. > He's > > > in the right place. > > > > > > Some deny they suffer but betray to the world that they do. > Others > > > proclaim to the world that they suffer but fail to surrender. > > > > > > Most fall somewhere in between. > > > > > > " Silver " > > > > > > > and where does Niz fall? > > > > ********** > > Niz? I'm not sure. I thought he said he was beyond suffering. So > maybe he didn't fall anywhere. Maybe he was in a category all of > his own??? Good question. Can you tell me what the answer is now? > I hope so because I'm pretty curious myself. > > :-) > > " Silver " the answer is, " a small baker in sicily never believed there was no bread in Nankin " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " > > <ericparoissien@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > > > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > ************ > > > > > > > > Larry has vividly demonstrated in his posts that he suffers. > > He's > > > > in the right place. > > > > > > > > Some deny they suffer but betray to the world that they do. > > Others > > > > proclaim to the world that they suffer but fail to surrender. > > > > > > > > Most fall somewhere in between. > > > > > > > > " Silver " > > > > > > > > > > and where does Niz fall? > > > > > > > ********** > > > > Niz? I'm not sure. I thought he said he was beyond suffering. So > > maybe he didn't fall anywhere. Maybe he was in a category all of > > his own??? Good question. Can you tell me what the answer is now? > > I hope so because I'm pretty curious myself. > > > > :-) > > > > " Silver " > > the answer is, > " a small baker in sicily never believed > there was no bread in Nankin " > ********** So, if I live in one part of the world (Sicily) and I make bread there, then surely there must be bread all over the rest of the world (most definitely including Nankin)? Even though I never visited the rest of the world? How would I know if there's bread in the rest of the world? And why are we talking about bread now? i thought we were discussing suffering!! Suffering succotash! Why you bein' so hard to understand? Or maybe it's just me. " Silver " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-1069 wrote: .... > > the answer is, > > " a small baker in sicily never believed > > there was no bread in Nankin " > > > > ********** > > So, if I live in one part of the world (Sicily) and I make bread > there, then surely there must be bread all over the rest of the > world (most definitely including Nankin)? Even though I never > visited the rest of the world? How would I know if there's bread in > the rest of the world? And why are we talking about bread now? i > thought we were discussing suffering!! > > Suffering succotash! Why you bein' so hard to understand? Or maybe > it's just me. > > " Silver " > a parable or a metaphore is when someone tells you for example " you'll know a tree by it's fruit " and you look around and there are no trees or fruits and you're puzzled! you think " possibly he is talking on the phone with another person who is sitting by an orchard " .... that, is a metaphore .... in this case i was only illustrating a process of the mind by which we believe a common experience is a compulsory experience, but we do not have to suffer, many people don't, many spiritual people would not " cross the street for Jesus or Buddha unless they need to ask him for the next Subway station " . And by " spiritual people " i mean those who see spirituality as the priveleged field where self-importance and suffering are best dealt with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > ... > > > > the answer is, > > > " a small baker in sicily never believed > > > there was no bread in Nankin " > > > > > > > ********** > > > > So, if I live in one part of the world (Sicily) and I make bread > > there, then surely there must be bread all over the rest of the > > world (most definitely including Nankin)? Even though I never > > visited the rest of the world? How would I know if there's bread in > > the rest of the world? And why are we talking about bread now? i > > thought we were discussing suffering!! > > > > Suffering succotash! Why you bein' so hard to understand? Or maybe > > it's just me. > > > > " Silver " > > > > a parable or a metaphore is when someone tells you for example " you'll > know a tree by it's fruit " and you look around and there are no trees > or fruits and you're puzzled! > you think " possibly he is talking on the phone with another person who > is sitting by an orchard " > ... > that, is a metaphore > ... > in this case i was only illustrating a process of the mind by which we > believe a common experience is a compulsory experience, but we do not > have to suffer, many people don't, many spiritual people would not > " cross the street for Jesus or Buddha unless they need to ask him for > the next Subway station " . > And by " spiritual people " i mean those who see spirituality as the > priveleged field where self-importance and suffering are best dealt with. > ************ I know what a metaphor is now. Thanks. But, you're saying suffering isn't a common human experience??? Surely even Niz and Buddah and Jesus suffered??? No?? As for the tree/fruit metaphor, the fruit is on the tree and another tree just like it can be found inside the fruit in seed form. But no tree or fruit, even if they're of the same species, is exactly the same. If they were humans, their experiences would differ because of location and outside influences and other conditions put on them. Each one is unique in its own way but....being human trees and fruits they have a common experience of just living life and all the challenges life offers them. Life is a challenge or a pain in the ass. It's suffering at the root of it. Suffering is the soil out of which the trees grow. Look at the shape of suffering. The branches grow in random, meaningless directions through the soil and the branches reach for the Heavens in crooked and bent ways, moving through life naturally but never very straight or without hindrance from conditions. Look at a wind swept tree. Beautiful to behold yet what suffering it must have endured to become so! " Silver " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > ... > > > > the answer is, > > > " a small baker in sicily never believed > > > there was no bread in Nankin " > > > > > > > ********** > > > > So, if I live in one part of the world (Sicily) and I make bread > > there, then surely there must be bread all over the rest of the > > world (most definitely including Nankin)? Even though I never > > visited the rest of the world? How would I know if there's bread in > > the rest of the world? And why are we talking about bread now? i > > thought we were discussing suffering!! > > > > Suffering succotash! Why you bein' so hard to understand? Or maybe > > it's just me. > > > > " Silver " > > > > a parable or a metaphore is when someone tells you for example " you'll > know a tree by it's fruit " and you look around and there are no trees > or fruits and you're puzzled! > you think " possibly he is talking on the phone with another person who > is sitting by an orchard " > ... > that, is a metaphore > ... > in this case i was only illustrating a process of the mind by which we > believe a common experience is a compulsory experience, but we do not > have to suffer, many people don't, many spiritual people would not > " cross the street for Jesus or Buddha unless they need to ask him for > the next Subway station " . > And by " spiritual people " i mean those who see spirituality as the > priveleged field where self-importance and suffering are best dealt with. > ********** It's natural to suffer. Self-important or not. Buddah or Jesus or the Pope or not. There is no escape. " Silver " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-1069 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " > <ericparoissien@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > the answer is, > > > > " a small baker in sicily never believed > > > > there was no bread in Nankin " > > > > > > > > > > ********** > > > > > > So, if I live in one part of the world (Sicily) and I make bread > > > there, then surely there must be bread all over the rest of the > > > world (most definitely including Nankin)? Even though I never > > > visited the rest of the world? How would I know if there's > bread in > > > the rest of the world? And why are we talking about bread now? > i > > > thought we were discussing suffering!! > > > > > > Suffering succotash! Why you bein' so hard to understand? Or > maybe > > > it's just me. > > > > > > " Silver " > > > > > > > a parable or a metaphore is when someone tells you for > example " you'll > > know a tree by it's fruit " and you look around and there are no > trees > > or fruits and you're puzzled! > > you think " possibly he is talking on the phone with another person > who > > is sitting by an orchard " > > ... > > that, is a metaphore > > ... > > in this case i was only illustrating a process of the mind by > which we > > believe a common experience is a compulsory experience, but we do > not > > have to suffer, many people don't, many spiritual people would not > > " cross the street for Jesus or Buddha unless they need to ask him > for > > the next Subway station " . > > And by " spiritual people " i mean those who see spirituality as the > > priveleged field where self-importance and suffering are best > dealt with. > > > > ************ > > I know what a metaphor is now. Thanks. But, you're saying > suffering isn't a common human experience??? Surely even Niz and > Buddah and Jesus suffered??? No?? As for the tree/fruit metaphor, > the fruit is on the tree and another tree just like it can be found > inside the fruit in seed form. But no tree or fruit, even if > they're of the same species, is exactly the same. If they were > humans, their experiences would differ because of location and > outside influences and other conditions put on them. Each one is > unique in its own way but....being human trees and fruits they have > a common experience of just living life and all the challenges life > offers them. Life is a challenge or a pain in the ass. It's > suffering at the root of it. Suffering is the soil out of which the > trees grow. Look at the shape of suffering. The branches grow in > random, meaningless directions through the soil and the branches > reach for the Heavens in crooked and bent ways, moving through life > naturally but never very straight or without hindrance from > conditions. Look at a wind swept tree. Beautiful to behold yet > what suffering it must have endured to become so! > > " Silver " the common experience for living things is stress, effort, resistance, maiming, destruction, overcoming, etc. we insist that it is an experience meaningful and necessary, that there is understanding wrapped into it, ... if there is no stake for self-importance for painful experiences they have little weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-1069 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " > <ericparoissien@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > the answer is, > > > > " a small baker in sicily never believed > > > > there was no bread in Nankin " > > > > > > > > > > ********** > > > > > > So, if I live in one part of the world (Sicily) and I make bread > > > there, then surely there must be bread all over the rest of the > > > world (most definitely including Nankin)? Even though I never > > > visited the rest of the world? How would I know if there's > bread in > > > the rest of the world? And why are we talking about bread now? > i > > > thought we were discussing suffering!! > > > > > > Suffering succotash! Why you bein' so hard to understand? Or > maybe > > > it's just me. > > > > > > " Silver " > > > > > > > a parable or a metaphore is when someone tells you for > example " you'll > > know a tree by it's fruit " and you look around and there are no > trees > > or fruits and you're puzzled! > > you think " possibly he is talking on the phone with another person > who > > is sitting by an orchard " > > ... > > that, is a metaphore > > ... > > in this case i was only illustrating a process of the mind by > which we > > believe a common experience is a compulsory experience, but we do > not > > have to suffer, many people don't, many spiritual people would not > > " cross the street for Jesus or Buddha unless they need to ask him > for > > the next Subway station " . > > And by " spiritual people " i mean those who see spirituality as the > > priveleged field where self-importance and suffering are best > dealt with. > > > > ********** > > It's natural to suffer. Self-important or not. Buddah or Jesus or > the Pope or not. There is no escape. > > " Silver " you are pushing the argument unnecessarily far Silver, Niz said " there is no escape " to help people drop false hope of meditation and training, that they drag for years with no result... Pain has no relevance to a human life that has lost the sense of self-importance. to that person, pain is at the same order as " expressing one's opinion " , there are numerous countries where most people express no opinion and they are not bothered, but to us Westerners it is seen as a painful attempt to one's freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " > > <ericparoissien@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > > > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > the answer is, > > > > > " a small baker in sicily never believed > > > > > there was no bread in Nankin " > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********** > > > > > > > > So, if I live in one part of the world (Sicily) and I make bread > > > > there, then surely there must be bread all over the rest of the > > > > world (most definitely including Nankin)? Even though I never > > > > visited the rest of the world? How would I know if there's > > bread in > > > > the rest of the world? And why are we talking about bread now? > > i > > > > thought we were discussing suffering!! > > > > > > > > Suffering succotash! Why you bein' so hard to understand? Or > > maybe > > > > it's just me. > > > > > > > > " Silver " > > > > > > > > > > a parable or a metaphore is when someone tells you for > > example " you'll > > > know a tree by it's fruit " and you look around and there are no > > trees > > > or fruits and you're puzzled! > > > you think " possibly he is talking on the phone with another person > > who > > > is sitting by an orchard " > > > ... > > > that, is a metaphore > > > ... > > > in this case i was only illustrating a process of the mind by > > which we > > > believe a common experience is a compulsory experience, but we do > > not > > > have to suffer, many people don't, many spiritual people would not > > > " cross the street for Jesus or Buddha unless they need to ask him > > for > > > the next Subway station " . > > > And by " spiritual people " i mean those who see spirituality as the > > > priveleged field where self-importance and suffering are best > > dealt with. > > > > > > > ************ > > > > I know what a metaphor is now. Thanks. But, you're saying > > suffering isn't a common human experience??? Surely even Niz and > > Buddah and Jesus suffered??? No?? As for the tree/fruit metaphor, > > the fruit is on the tree and another tree just like it can be found > > inside the fruit in seed form. But no tree or fruit, even if > > they're of the same species, is exactly the same. If they were > > humans, their experiences would differ because of location and > > outside influences and other conditions put on them. Each one is > > unique in its own way but....being human trees and fruits they have > > a common experience of just living life and all the challenges life > > offers them. Life is a challenge or a pain in the ass. It's > > suffering at the root of it. Suffering is the soil out of which the > > trees grow. Look at the shape of suffering. The branches grow in > > random, meaningless directions through the soil and the branches > > reach for the Heavens in crooked and bent ways, moving through life > > naturally but never very straight or without hindrance from > > conditions. Look at a wind swept tree. Beautiful to behold yet > > what suffering it must have endured to become so! > > > > " Silver " > > the common experience for living things is stress, effort, resistance, > maiming, destruction, overcoming, etc. we insist that it is an > experience meaningful and necessary, that there is understanding > wrapped into it, ... if there is no stake for self-importance for > painful experiences they have little weight. > **************** There's no meaning or necessity in suffering either. It weighs a ton only if it's not accepted and surrendered to. " Silver " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " > > <ericparoissien@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > > > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > the answer is, > > > > > " a small baker in sicily never believed > > > > > there was no bread in Nankin " > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********** > > > > > > > > So, if I live in one part of the world (Sicily) and I make bread > > > > there, then surely there must be bread all over the rest of the > > > > world (most definitely including Nankin)? Even though I never > > > > visited the rest of the world? How would I know if there's > > bread in > > > > the rest of the world? And why are we talking about bread now? > > i > > > > thought we were discussing suffering!! > > > > > > > > Suffering succotash! Why you bein' so hard to understand? Or > > maybe > > > > it's just me. > > > > > > > > " Silver " > > > > > > > > > > a parable or a metaphore is when someone tells you for > > example " you'll > > > know a tree by it's fruit " and you look around and there are no > > trees > > > or fruits and you're puzzled! > > > you think " possibly he is talking on the phone with another person > > who > > > is sitting by an orchard " > > > ... > > > that, is a metaphore > > > ... > > > in this case i was only illustrating a process of the mind by > > which we > > > believe a common experience is a compulsory experience, but we do > > not > > > have to suffer, many people don't, many spiritual people would not > > > " cross the street for Jesus or Buddha unless they need to ask him > > for > > > the next Subway station " . > > > And by " spiritual people " i mean those who see spirituality as the > > > priveleged field where self-importance and suffering are best > > dealt with. > > > > > > > ********** > > > > It's natural to suffer. Self-important or not. Buddah or Jesus or > > the Pope or not. There is no escape. > > > > " Silver " > > you are pushing the argument unnecessarily far Silver, > Niz said " there is no escape " to help people drop false > hope of meditation and training, that they drag for years > with no result... > Pain has no relevance to a human life that has lost the > sense of self-importance. > to that person, pain is at the same order as " expressing > one's opinion " , there are numerous countries where most > people express no opinion and they are not bothered, but > to us Westerners it is seen as a painful attempt to one's > freedom. > ******* Okay. I'll shut up now. LOL. How would I find out where those countries that have no opinions are? I wonder what it would be like to live in one? " Silver " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-1069 wrote: .... > > you are pushing the argument unnecessarily far Silver, > > Niz said " there is no escape " to help people drop false > > hope of meditation and training, that they drag for years > > with no result... > > Pain has no relevance to a human life that has lost the > > sense of self-importance. > > to that person, pain is at the same order as " expressing > > one's opinion " , there are numerous countries where most > > people express no opinion and they are not bothered, but > > to us Westerners it is seen as a painful attempt to one's > > freedom. > > > > ******* > > Okay. I'll shut up now. LOL. How would I find out where those > countries that have no opinions are? I wonder what it would be like > to live in one? I lived in Japan ten years, no one is proud of an opinion there, maybe changing with younger generations, i had girl friends who would rarely speak, we'd spend days in silence you tell her " what are you thinking of now? " she'd say " that peculiar color on a roof there " > > " Silver " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > ... > > > **************** > > > > There's no meaning or necessity in suffering either. It weighs a > > ton only if it's not accepted and surrendered to. > > > > " Silver " > > i think so, and by surrender it is meant to look > how it soars from nowhere and dissolves in bliss. > ******** Surrender soars from nowhere? You mean, a person finally surrenders to the root of suffering at the least expected moment? I'm not sure what you mean by surrender dissolving though. Interesting points you made there but, of course, I'm having a hard time following the eloquent way of your writing expressions. Im not good with metaphors.... But i'm trying..please be patient with me, :-) " Silver " PS- What did I mean there by the root of suffering? I don't understand what I wrote. Don't be mad at me for that, okay? Sometimes I just write things that I don't even get. I don't know why. And I don't think anything of it. It's probably just stuff I read somewhere at some time coming back to the surface or something. I think it's called megalomania? or cryptomania? when you read something and then you repeat it later in conversation thinkng it comes from you? i don' t know. But at least i know when I'm repeating someone else's thoughts, rihgt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > <silver-1069@> wrote: > > > ... > > > > you are pushing the argument unnecessarily far Silver, > > > Niz said " there is no escape " to help people drop false > > > hope of meditation and training, that they drag for years > > > with no result... > > > Pain has no relevance to a human life that has lost the > > > sense of self-importance. > > > to that person, pain is at the same order as " expressing > > > one's opinion " , there are numerous countries where most > > > people express no opinion and they are not bothered, but > > > to us Westerners it is seen as a painful attempt to one's > > > freedom. > > > > > > > ******* > > > > Okay. I'll shut up now. LOL. How would I find out where those > > countries that have no opinions are? I wonder what it would be like > > to live in one? > > I lived in Japan ten years, no one is proud > of an opinion there, maybe changing with younger > generations, i had girl friends who would > rarely speak, we'd spend days in silence > you tell her " what are you thinking of now? " > she'd say " that peculiar color on a roof there " ************** Having an opinion and being proud of one are two different things. Maybe your Japanese girlfriends should have chosen to keep their mouths shut rather than to express their opinions when you aslked them to? Silence was probably getting to ya' eh! You had to go and ruin it. Sheesh. Westerners! ;-) " Silver " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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