Guest guest Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 Or, you can simply " lose " sense and not feel anything! But, joking aside... I consider all three scenarios that you descried above pretty much equally real/unreal. I too have experienced mental 'states', some in which any physical pain is felt intensely and others in which it is not felt at all! Our mind [and mood] Immensely affects sensation of our physical experience is a FACT and is hardly a matter of debate anymore! Brain itself often uses it to SHUT itself out when it finds certain sensations too much to " bear " ! Yet, just as applying local anesthetics, 'drugged', 'drunk', 'zoned out, 'stoned' or 'losing consciousness' to avoid feeling pain ... doesn't mean that the pain has no existence! Similarly, different sensations that are felt in different mental 'mode' don't make one real and another unreal! 'Changing state' is certainly a good *learning* device and one can use consciously when needed to 'experience' or 'not experience' certain things yet, none of it requires convincing yourself of existence or non-existence of sensations! .... Further more, one you start *tuning* into any of this practice and *abiding* in a PRESENT, Conscious or simply 'sleep like - No feeling' zone - you will notice that sometimes the [pain] sensation comes too sudden and is quite new! Some times it hits your body and brain [mind] before any practice, rationalization, theory, *enlightenment*, realization can try to 'understand', 'analyze', 'dismiss', 'ignore' or even... 'register' it! That is the Reality of each and every biological Human Body! Just as every physical body has inherent *potential* to get sick, get hurt, ache, pain... every brain [mind] has inbuilt potential to *feel* emotions [including Pain]! It is required for survival, growth and evolution of the organism as well as for its eventual *departure*! Every Buddha [occasionally] suffers... only intensity, duration and frequency [greatly] differ! Life is more like a PROCESS [of Consciousness learning to deal with " things " ]... and, less of a Final Destination where all things [and sensations] get fixed and frozen! Death is such a Destination... not Life! [ NNB ] Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson wrote: > > > > > Read my words a little more carefully... > > I said, " no *time* for 'I am feeling pain' " . > > The *thought* " I am feeling pain " requires time. > > I did not say there is no pain. > > > But even pain is much different when there is complete > > presence, complete acute awareness. It would seem > > that would just make it worse. But the opposite is > > the case. > > > Bill > > Hi Bill, > > I remember as a kid, maybe 10 or so, going down into my > grandfather's basement where he had all kinds of woodworking and other > tools. One of them was a large vice attached to the end of a bench he'd > built. I loved the aroma of wood, sawdust, linseed oil, etc. > > One day, out of curiosity, I put my left hand into the vice up to > the second knuckles and began tightening the vice by slowly turning the > handle. At a certain *point*, pain began to set in. I continued to turn > the handle to increase the intensity of the pain, stopping short of > doing any damage however. I recall trying three " experiments " relative > to the *pain " . The first was to " complain " about it mentally, even " out > loud " by verbally saying such things as " This hurts. Damn, it hurts. I > wish this would go away. I can't stand it. Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! " , and so > on. > > The second experiment was to stop complaining and simply, calmly think > of it as or name it " pain " and " this hurts " . > > The third was to *feel into it* as if I didn't know what it was. As if > it were a " brand new " experience. And this made all the difference in > the world! > > I noticed that in the 1st experiment, the " pain " was most intense and > grew more so the more I indulged in complaining and fighting it. In the > 2nd experiment, it was more " tolerable " and subdued that in the first. > Whereas in the 3rd experiement, when feeling it without memory or > strategy, by inquiring *into* it from/with a " don't know " position, it > was almost as if the pain completely disappeared and " just mere > sensation " was present, which was neither pleasurable nor painful. Of > course, I've always been a bit *odd*. :-) Caution: Humans! Do not > try this experiment at home without an adult being present...should you > be fortunate enough to come across or know a true adult, that is! :-) > > Michael > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 >> I remember as a kid, maybe 10 or so, going down into my grandfather's basement where he had all kinds of woodworking and other tools. One of them was a large vice attached to the end of a bench he'd built. I loved the aroma of wood, sawdust, linseed oil, etc. >> One day, out of curiosity, I put my left hand into the vice up to the second knuckles and began tightening the vice by slowly turning the handle. At a certain *point*, pain began to set in. I continued to turn the handle to increase the intensity of the pain, stopping short of doing any damage however. I recall trying three " experiments " relative to the *pain " . The first was to " complain " about it mentally, even " out loud " by verbally saying such things as " This hurts. Damn, it hurts. I wish this would go away. I can't stand it. Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! " , and so on. >>The second experiment was to stop complaining and simply, calmly think of it as or name it " pain " and " this hurts " . >>The third was to *feel into it* as if I didn't know what it was. As if it were a " brand new " experience. And this made all the difference in the world! >>I noticed that in the 1st experiment, the " pain " was most intense and grew more so the more I indulged in complaining and fighting it. In the 2nd experiment, it was more " tolerable " and subdued that in the first. >>Whereas in the 3rd experiement, when feeling it without memory or strategy, by inquiring *into* it from/with a " don't know " position, it was almost as if the pain completely disappeared and " just mere sensation " was present, which was neither pleasurable nor painful. Of course, I've always been a bit *odd*. :-) Caution: Humans! Do not try this experiment at home without an adult being present...should you be fortunate enough to come across or know a true adult, that is! :-) >>Michael .... Or, you can simply " lose " sense and not feel a THING! But, joking aside... I consider all three scenarios that you descried above pretty much equally real/unreal. I too have experienced mental 'states', some in which any physical pain is felt intensely and others in which it is not felt at all! Our mind [and mood] Immensely affects sensation of our physical experience is a FACT and is hardly a matter of debate anymore! Brain itself often uses it to SHUT itself out when it finds certain sensations too much to " bear " ! Yet, just as applying local anesthetics, 'drugged', 'drunk', 'zoned out, 'stoned' or 'losing consciousness' to avoid feeling pain ... doesn't mean that the pain has no existence! Similarly, different sensations that are felt in different mental 'mode' don't make one real and another unreal! 'Changing state' is certainly a good *learning* device and one can use consciously when needed to 'experience' or 'not experience' certain things yet, none of it requires convincing yourself of existence or non-existence of sensations! .... Further more, one you start *tuning* into any of this practice and *abiding* in a PRESENT, Conscious or simply 'sleep like - No feeling' zone - you will notice that sometimes the [pain] sensation comes too sudden and is quite new! Some times it hits your body and brain [mind] before any practice, rationalization, theory, *enlightenment*, realization can try to 'understand', 'analyze', 'dismiss', 'ignore' or even... 'register' it! That is the Reality of each and every biological Human Body! Just as every physical body has inherent *potential* to get sick, get hurt, ache, pain... every brain [mind] has inbuilt potential to *feel* emotions [including Pain]! It is required for survival, growth and evolution of the organism as well as for its eventual *departure*! Every Buddha [occasionally] suffers... only intensity, duration and frequency [greatly] differ! Life is more like a PROCESS [of Consciousness learning to deal with " things " ]... and, less of a Final Destination where all things [and sensations] get fixed and frozen! Death is such a Destination... not Life! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 A: Life is more like a PROCESS [of Consciousness learning to deal with " things " ]... and, less of a Final Destination where all things [and sensations] get fixed and frozen! ~~~~~~~ absolutely Bill Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming wrote: > > >> I remember as a kid, maybe 10 or > so, going down into my > grandfather's basement where he had > all kinds of woodworking and other > tools. One of them was a large vice > attached to the end of a bench he'd > built. I loved the aroma of wood, > sawdust, linseed oil, etc. > > >> One day, out of curiosity, I put my > left hand into the vice up to > the second knuckles and began > tightening the vice by slowly turning the > handle. At a certain *point*, pain > began to set in. I continued to turn > the handle to increase the intensity > of the pain, stopping short of > doing any damage however. I recall > trying three " experiments " relative > to the *pain " . The first was to > " complain " about it mentally, even " out > loud " by verbally saying such things > as " This hurts. Damn, it hurts. I > wish this would go away. I can't stand > it. Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! " , and so > on. > > >>The second experiment was to stop > complaining and simply, calmly think > of it as or name it " pain " and " this > hurts " . > > >>The third was to *feel into it* as > if I didn't know what it was. As if > it were a " brand new " experience. And > this made all the difference in > the world! > > >>I noticed that in the 1st > experiment, the " pain " was most intense > and > grew more so the more I indulged in > complaining and fighting it. In the > 2nd experiment, it was more > " tolerable " and subdued that in the > first. > > >>Whereas in the 3rd experiement, when > feeling it without memory or > strategy, by inquiring *into* it > from/with a " don't know " position, it > was almost as if the pain completely > disappeared and " just mere > sensation " was present, which was > neither pleasurable nor painful. Of > course, I've always been a bit *odd*. > :-) Caution: Humans! Do not > try this experiment at home without an > adult being present...should you > be fortunate enough to come across or > know a true adult, that is! :-) > > >>Michael > > ... > > > Or, you can simply " lose " sense and not > feel a THING! > > But, joking aside... I consider all > three scenarios that you descried above > pretty much equally real/unreal. > > I too have experienced mental > 'states', some in which any physical > pain is felt intensely and others in > which it is not felt at all! > > Our mind [and mood] Immensely affects > sensation of our physical experience is > a FACT and is hardly a matter of debate > anymore! > > Brain itself often uses it to SHUT > itself out when it finds certain > sensations too much to " bear " ! > > Yet, just as applying local > anesthetics, 'drugged', 'drunk', 'zoned > out, 'stoned' or 'losing consciousness' > to avoid feeling pain ... doesn't mean > that the pain has no existence! > Similarly, different sensations that > are felt in different mental 'mode' > don't make one real and another unreal! > > 'Changing state' is certainly a good > *learning* device and one can use > consciously when needed to 'experience' > or 'not experience' certain things yet, > none of it requires convincing yourself > of existence or non-existence of > sensations! > > ... > > Further more, one you start *tuning* > into any of this practice and *abiding* > in a PRESENT, Conscious or simply > 'sleep like - No feeling' zone - you > will notice that sometimes the [pain] > sensation comes too sudden and is quite > new! Some times it hits your body and > brain [mind] before any practice, > rationalization, theory, > *enlightenment*, realization can try to > 'understand', 'analyze', 'dismiss', > 'ignore' or even... 'register' it! > > That is the Reality of each and every > biological Human Body! > > Just as every physical body has inherent > *potential* to get sick, get hurt, ache, pain... > > every brain [mind] has inbuilt potential to > *feel* emotions [including Pain]! > > It is required for survival, growth and evolution > of the organism as well as for its eventual > *departure*! > > > > Every Buddha [occasionally] suffers... > only intensity, duration and frequency > [greatly] differ! > > > Life is more like a PROCESS [of > Consciousness learning to deal with > " things " ]... > and, less of a Final Destination where > all things [and sensations] get fixed > and frozen! > > Death is such a Destination... > not Life! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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