Pain disappears or transforms when given full undivided non-s

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/29/2006 3:40:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,

Nisargadatta writes:

 

Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:44:42 -0800

" Adamson " <adamson

Pain disappears or transforms when given full undivided

non-strategic attention

 

 

 

> Read my words a little more carefully...

> I said, " no *time* for 'I am feeling pain' " .

> The *thought* " I am feeling pain " requires time.

> I did not say there is no pain.

 

> But even pain is much different when there is complete

> presence, complete acute awareness. It would seem

> that would just make it worse. But the opposite is

> the case.

 

> Bill

 

Hi Bill,

 

I remember as a kid, maybe 10 or so, going down into my

grandfather's basement where he had all kinds of woodworking and other

tools. One of them was a large vice attached to the end of a bench he'd

built. I loved the aroma of wood, sawdust, linseed oil, etc.

 

One day, out of curiosity, I put my left hand into the vice up to

the second knuckles and began tightening the vice by slowly turning the

handle. At a certain *point*, pain began to set in. I continued to turn

the handle to increase the intensity of the pain, stopping short of

doing any damage however. I recall trying three " experiments " relative

to the *pain " . The first was to " complain " about it mentally, even " out

loud " by verbally saying such things as " This hurts. Damn, it hurts. I

wish this would go away. I can't stand it. Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! " , and so

on.

 

The second experiment was to stop complaining and simply, calmly think

of it as or name it " pain " and " this hurts " .

 

The third was to *feel into it* as if I didn't know what it was. As if

it were a " brand new " experience. And this made all the difference in

the world!

 

I noticed that in the 1st experiment, the " pain " was most intense and

grew more so the more I indulged in complaining and fighting it. In the

2nd experiment, it was more " tolerable " and subdued that in the first.

Whereas in the 3rd experiement, when feeling it without memory or

strategy, by inquiring *into* it from/with a " don't know " position, it

was almost as if the pain completely disappeared and " just mere

sensation " was present, which was neither pleasurable nor painful. Of

course, I've always been a bit *odd*. :-) Caution: Humans! Do not

try this experiment at home without an adult being present...should you

be fortunate enough to come across or know a true adult, that is! :-)

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

That's an excellent exploration that has more significance than some

realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is removed, there is only

sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of resistance to it. We

don't

explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

 

Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias, attachments, fear,

acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and the willingness to

recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 3/29/2006 3:40:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> Nisargadatta writes:

>

> Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:44:42 -0800

> " Adamson " <adamson

> Pain disappears or transforms when given full undivided

> non-strategic attention

>

>

>

> > Read my words a little more carefully...

> > I said, " no *time* for 'I am feeling pain' " .

> > The *thought* " I am feeling pain " requires time.

> > I did not say there is no pain.

>

> > But even pain is much different when there is complete

> > presence, complete acute awareness. It would seem

> > that would just make it worse. But the opposite is

> > the case.

>

> > Bill

>

> Hi Bill,

>

> I remember as a kid, maybe 10 or so, going down into my

> grandfather's basement where he had all kinds of woodworking and

other

> tools. One of them was a large vice attached to the end of a

bench he'd

> built. I loved the aroma of wood, sawdust, linseed oil, etc.

>

> One day, out of curiosity, I put my left hand into the vice up to

> the second knuckles and began tightening the vice by slowly

turning the

> handle. At a certain *point*, pain began to set in. I continued

to turn

> the handle to increase the intensity of the pain, stopping short

of

> doing any damage however. I recall trying three " experiments "

relative

> to the *pain " . The first was to " complain " about it mentally,

even " out

> loud " by verbally saying such things as " This hurts. Damn, it

hurts. I

> wish this would go away. I can't stand it. Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! " ,

and so

> on.

>

> The second experiment was to stop complaining and simply, calmly

think

> of it as or name it " pain " and " this hurts " .

>

> The third was to *feel into it* as if I didn't know what it was.

As if

> it were a " brand new " experience. And this made all the

difference in

> the world!

>

> I noticed that in the 1st experiment, the " pain " was most intense

and

> grew more so the more I indulged in complaining and fighting it.

In the

> 2nd experiment, it was more " tolerable " and subdued that in the

first.

> Whereas in the 3rd experiement, when feeling it without memory or

> strategy, by inquiring *into* it from/with a " don't know "

position, it

> was almost as if the pain completely disappeared and " just mere

> sensation " was present, which was neither pleasurable nor

painful. Of

> course, I've always been a bit *odd*. :-) Caution: Humans! Do

not

> try this experiment at home without an adult being

present...should you

> be fortunate enough to come across or know a true adult, that

is! :-)

>

> Michael

>

>

>

>

> That's an excellent exploration that has more significance than

some

> realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is removed,

there is only

> sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of

resistance to it. We don't

> explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

>

> Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias, attachments,

fear,

> acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and the

willingness to

> recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

>

> Phil

 

 

 

 

Yes. I don´t know whether it is possible not to resist extreme

physical pain, gentle pain does indeed become less or may even

disapear when observed with attention. Anyway, physical pain has its

protective function, so this part of resistance seems necessary for

the protection of the body. Pain can also indicate an illness, and

is as such an importnat source of information.

Emotional pain is entirely due to resistance and disappears together

with reisistance. On top of it, it has no protective function at

all, there is nothing which can be damaged " inside " , the only thing

which can be damaged is the system of psychological defense, which

is unnecessary.

Hmmmm.... if it is unnecessary, why have we developped it?

 

Len

[Guest guest]

Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:06:13 -0000

" lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full undivided non-s

 

 

 

> That's an excellent exploration that has more significance than

some

> realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is removed,

there is only

> sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of

resistance to it. We don't

> explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

>

> Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias, attachments,

fear,

> acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and the

willingness to

> recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

>

> Phil

 

 

 

 

Len: Yes. I don´t know whether it is possible not to resist extreme

physical pain, gentle pain does indeed become less or may even

disapear when observed with attention. Anyway, physical pain has its

protective function, so this part of resistance seems necessary for

the protection of the body. Pain can also indicate an illness, and

is as such an importnat source of information.

 

 

Phil: If I'm not mistaken, we've been separating the sensation of pain from

the suffering. Sensation is a physiological process that continues and can

continue to alert to bodily danger without the necessity of suffering.

 

 

 

 

Len: Emotional pain is entirely due to resistance and disappears together

with reisistance. On top of it, it has no protective function at

all, there is nothing which can be damaged " inside " , the only thing

which can be damaged is the system of psychological defense, which

is unnecessary.

Hmmmm.... if it is unnecessary, why have we developped it?

 

Len

 

 

Phil: It's only seen as unnecessary as a conceptual idea. What is believed

is different from the embraced concept. It's developed as part of a process of

seeking solution, or in some cases because the suffering is enjoyed or

benefited from.

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

>

> Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:06:13 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

undivided non-s

>

>

>

> > That's an excellent exploration that has more significance than

> some

> > realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is removed,

> there is only

> > sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of

> resistance to it. We don't

> > explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

> >

> > Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias, attachments,

> fear,

> > acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and the

> willingness to

> > recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

> >

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> Len: Yes. I don´t know whether it is possible not to resist

extreme

> physical pain, gentle pain does indeed become less or may even

> disapear when observed with attention. Anyway, physical pain has

its

> protective function, so this part of resistance seems necessary

for

> the protection of the body. Pain can also indicate an illness, and

> is as such an importnat source of information.

>

>

> Phil: If I'm not mistaken, we've been separating the sensation of

pain from

> the suffering. Sensation is a physiological process that continues

and can

> continue to alert to bodily danger without the necessity of

suffering.

>

>

>

>

> Len: Emotional pain is entirely due to resistance and disappears

together

> with reisistance. On top of it, it has no protective function at

> all, there is nothing which can be damaged " inside " , the only

thing

> which can be damaged is the system of psychological defense, which

> is unnecessary.

> Hmmmm.... if it is unnecessary, why have we developped it?

>

> Len

>

>

> Phil: It's only seen as unnecessary as a conceptual idea. What is

believed

> is different from the embraced concept. It's developed as part of a

process of

> seeking solution, or in some cases because the suffering is enjoyed

or

> benefited from.

>

> Phil

>

> We do Love to Suffer don't we....

......bob

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

>

> Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:06:13 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

undivided non-s

>

>

>

> > That's an excellent exploration that has more significance than

> some

> > realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is removed,

> there is only

> > sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of

> resistance to it. We don't

> > explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

> >

> > Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias, attachments,

> fear,

> > acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and the

> willingness to

> > recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

> >

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> Len: Yes. I don´t know whether it is possible not to resist

extreme

> physical pain, gentle pain does indeed become less or may even

> disapear when observed with attention. Anyway, physical pain has

its

> protective function, so this part of resistance seems necessary

for

> the protection of the body. Pain can also indicate an illness,

and

> is as such an importnat source of information.

>

>

> Phil: If I'm not mistaken, we've been separating the sensation of

pain from

> the suffering. Sensation is a physiological process that continues

and can

> continue to alert to bodily danger without the necessity of

suffering.

 

 

 

 

It is the negative notion of the pain which alerts us.

If it is not experienced as suffering it won´t be alerting.

 

 

 

 

> Len: Emotional pain is entirely due to resistance and disappears

together

> with reisistance. On top of it, it has no protective function at

> all, there is nothing which can be damaged " inside " , the only

thing

> which can be damaged is the system of psychological defense,

which

> is unnecessary.

> Hmmmm.... if it is unnecessary, why have we developped it?

>

> Len

>

>

> Phil: It's only seen as unnecessary as a conceptual idea.

 

 

 

No, there is just nothing to protect, which you can see when you

watch the " harm " to the very end.

Unfortunately we hardly ever do that, and so the belief in the

necessity of psychological self-defence is being perpetuated.

 

Len

 

 

 

 

What is believed

> is different from the embraced concept. It's developed as part of

a process of

> seeking solution, or in some cases because the suffering is

enjoyed or

> benefited from.

>

> Phil

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/1/2006 1:10:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,

Nisargadatta writes:

 

Sat, 01 Apr 2006 07:37:17 -0000

" Bob N. " <Roberibus111

Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full undivided non-s

 

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

>

> Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:06:13 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

undivided non-s

>

>

>

> > That's an excellent exploration that has more significance than

> some

> > realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is removed,

> there is only

> > sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of

> resistance to it. We don't

> > explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

> >

> > Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias, attachments,

> fear,

> > acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and the

> willingness to

> > recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

> >

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> Len: Yes. I don´t know whether it is possible not to resist

extreme

> physical pain, gentle pain does indeed become less or may even

> disapear when observed with attention. Anyway, physical pain has

its

> protective function, so this part of resistance seems necessary

for

> the protection of the body. Pain can also indicate an illness, and

> is as such an importnat source of information.

>

>

> Phil: If I'm not mistaken, we've been separating the sensation of

pain from

> the suffering. Sensation is a physiological process that continues

and can

> continue to alert to bodily danger without the necessity of

suffering.

>

>

>

>

> Len: Emotional pain is entirely due to resistance and disappears

together

> with reisistance. On top of it, it has no protective function at

> all, there is nothing which can be damaged " inside " , the only

thing

> which can be damaged is the system of psychological defense, which

> is unnecessary.

> Hmmmm.... if it is unnecessary, why have we developped it?

>

> Len

>

>

> Phil: It's only seen as unnecessary as a conceptual idea. What is

believed

> is different from the embraced concept. It's developed as part of a

process of

> seeking solution, or in some cases because the suffering is enjoyed

 

or

> benefited from.

>

> Phil

>

> We do Love to Suffer don't we....

.......bob

 

 

 

We do indeedy. Of course, when we come to love suffering, it's not really

suffering at all. Notice how difficult it is to talk folks out of their joyful

suffering. If you get tired of listening to em, they'll pay a psychiatrist to

sit and listen to em moan. The one thing they won't do is let go of the

suffering until it doesn't work for em anymore, at which point they drop it like

a hot rock. If there's any doubt about how that works, just watch your kids

use it.

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/1/2006 6:46:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

Nisargadatta writes:

 

Sat, 01 Apr 2006 12:20:24 -0000

" lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full undivided non-s

 

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

>

> Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:06:13 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

undivided non-s

>

>

>

> > That's an excellent exploration that has more significance than

> some

> > realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is removed,

> there is only

> > sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of

> resistance to it. We don't

> > explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

> >

> > Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias, attachments,

> fear,

> > acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and the

> willingness to

> > recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

> >

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> Len: Yes. I don´t know whether it is possible not to resist

extreme

> physical pain, gentle pain does indeed become less or may even

> disapear when observed with attention. Anyway, physical pain has

its

> protective function, so this part of resistance seems necessary

for

> the protection of the body. Pain can also indicate an illness,

and

> is as such an importnat source of information.

>

>

> Phil: If I'm not mistaken, we've been separating the sensation of

pain from

> the suffering. Sensation is a physiological process that continues

and can

> continue to alert to bodily danger without the necessity of

suffering.

 

 

 

 

Len: It is the negative notion of the pain which alerts us.

If it is not experienced as suffering it won´t be alerting.

 

 

 

 

Phil: If I tap you on the shoulder will you be alerted? Is it likely to be

painful?

Learning not to create psychological suffering out of physical sensations

will not make you suddenly ignorant. If you would attempt an experiment such as

Michael described, you would find that there is still a sensation that

increases as physical stress increases. This sensory stimulation isn't

affected,

only the psychological result.

 

If you learn to eliminate suffering, but still wait for suffering to occur

before paying attention to the body, who's fault is that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Len: Emotional pain is entirely due to resistance and disappears

together

> with reisistance. On top of it, it has no protective function at

> all, there is nothing which can be damaged " inside " , the only

thing

> which can be damaged is the system of psychological defense,

which

> is unnecessary.

> Hmmmm.... if it is unnecessary, why have we developped it?

>

> Len

>

>

> Phil: It's only seen as unnecessary as a conceptual idea.

 

 

 

No, there is just nothing to protect, which you can see when you

watch the " harm " to the very end.

Unfortunately we hardly ever do that, and so the belief in the

necessity of psychological self-defence is being perpetuated.

 

Len

 

 

 

 

Phil: So you agree. It's interesting that you think you don't. Have you been

taking lessons from Larry? ~

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What is believed

> is different from the embraced concept. It's developed as part of

a process of

> seeking solution, or in some cases because the suffering is

enjoyed or

> benefited from.

>

> Phil

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

> In a message dated 4/1/2006 6:46:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> Nisargadatta writes:

>

> Sat, 01 Apr 2006 12:20:24 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

undivided non-s

>

> Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> >

> >

> > Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:06:13 -0000

> > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@>

> > Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

> undivided non-s

> >

> >

> >

> > > That's an excellent exploration that has more significance

than

> > some

> > > realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is removed,

> > there is only

> > > sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of

> > resistance to it. We don't

> > > explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

> > >

> > > Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias,

attachments,

> > fear,

> > > acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and the

> > willingness to

> > > recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

> > >

> > > Phil

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Len: Yes. I don´t know whether it is possible not to resist

> extreme

> > physical pain, gentle pain does indeed become less or may even

> > disapear when observed with attention. Anyway, physical pain

has

> its

> > protective function, so this part of resistance seems necessary

> for

> > the protection of the body. Pain can also indicate an illness,

> and

> > is as such an importnat source of information.

> >

> >

> > Phil: If I'm not mistaken, we've been separating the sensation

of

> pain from

> > the suffering. Sensation is a physiological process that

continues

> and can

> > continue to alert to bodily danger without the necessity of

> suffering.

>

>

>

>

> Len: It is the negative notion of the pain which alerts us.

> If it is not experienced as suffering it won´t be alerting.

>

>

>

>

> Phil: If I tap you on the shoulder will you be alerted? Is it

likely to be

> painful?

> Learning not to create psychological suffering out of physical

sensations

> will not make you suddenly ignorant. If you would attempt an

experiment such as

> Michael described, you would find that there is still a sensation

that

> increases as physical stress increases. This sensory stimulation

isn't affected,

> only the psychological result.

>

> If you learn to eliminate suffering, but still wait for suffering

to occur

> before paying attention to the body, who's fault is that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

If there was no notion of suffering, at certain point, Micheal might

have smashed his hand.

I know you love theory, Phil.

But let's get real:

when you're in extasy when dying from cancer, please let me know :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> > Len: Emotional pain is entirely due to resistance and

disappears

> together

> > with reisistance. On top of it, it has no protective function

at

> > all, there is nothing which can be damaged " inside " , the only

> thing

> > which can be damaged is the system of psychological defense,

> which

> > is unnecessary.

> > Hmmmm.... if it is unnecessary, why have we developped it?

> >

> > Len

> >

> >

> > Phil: It's only seen as unnecessary as a conceptual idea.

>

>

>

> No, there is just nothing to protect, which you can see when you

> watch the " harm " to the very end.

> Unfortunately we hardly ever do that, and so the belief in the

> necessity of psychological self-defence is being perpetuated.

>

> Len

>

>

>

>

> Phil: So you agree. It's interesting that you think you don't. Have

you been

> taking lessons from Larry? ~

>

> Phil

 

 

 

It's interesting that you think that I think that I'dont :-)

How come?

 

Len

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/2/2006 1:25:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

Nisargadatta writes:

 

Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:45:49 -0000

" lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full undivided non-s

 

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

> In a message dated 4/1/2006 6:46:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> Nisargadatta writes:

>

> Sat, 01 Apr 2006 12:20:24 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

undivided non-s

>

> Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> >

> >

> > Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:06:13 -0000

> > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@>

> > Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

> undivided non-s

> >

> >

> >

> > > That's an excellent exploration that has more significance

than

> > some

> > > realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is removed,

> > there is only

> > > sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of

> > resistance to it. We don't

> > > explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

> > >

> > > Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias,

attachments,

> > fear,

> > > acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and the

> > willingness to

> > > recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

> > >

> > > Phil

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Len: Yes. I don´t know whether it is possible not to resist

> extreme

> > physical pain, gentle pain does indeed become less or may even

> > disapear when observed with attention. Anyway, physical pain

has

> its

> > protective function, so this part of resistance seems necessary

> for

> > the protection of the body. Pain can also indicate an illness,

> and

> > is as such an importnat source of information.

> >

> >

> > Phil: If I'm not mistaken, we've been separating the sensation

of

> pain from

> > the suffering. Sensation is a physiological process that

continues

> and can

> > continue to alert to bodily danger without the necessity of

> suffering.

>

>

>

>

> Len: It is the negative notion of the pain which alerts us.

> If it is not experienced as suffering it won´t be alerting.

>

>

>

>

> Phil: If I tap you on the shoulder will you be alerted? Is it

likely to be

> painful?

> Learning not to create psychological suffering out of physical

sensations

> will not make you suddenly ignorant. If you would attempt an

experiment such as

> Michael described, you would find that there is still a sensation

that

> increases as physical stress increases. This sensory stimulation

isn't affected,

> only the psychological result.

>

> If you learn to eliminate suffering, but still wait for suffering

to occur

> before paying attention to the body, who's fault is that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

If there was no notion of suffering, at certain point, Micheal might

have smashed his hand.

I know you love theory, Phil.

But let's get real:

when you're in extasy when dying from cancer, please let me know :-)

 

 

 

Um...okay, A) You're working very hard to dismiss the point while surmising

that perhaps under different circumstances Michael might have hurt himself.

You're awfully sure of yourself for having never experienced what's being

discussed. how's about giving it the good ole college try first, then come back

and we can discuss from a place of experience rather than ignorance?

 

B) I have no particular fondness for theory. I talk about what I see and

what I've experienced.

 

C) Sarcasm doesn't suit you, and while you're busy questioning why ego needs

defensive, protective tactics at all, perhaps you have an experimental

vehicle right close to home with which you can work to answer those questions?

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 4/2/2006 1:25:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> Nisargadatta writes:

>

> Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:45:49 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

undivided non-s

>

> Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> >

> > In a message dated 4/1/2006 6:46:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > Nisargadatta writes:

> >

> > Sat, 01 Apr 2006 12:20:24 -0000

> > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@>

> > Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

> undivided non-s

> >

> > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:06:13 -0000

> > > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@>

> > > Re: Pain disappears or transforms when given full

> > undivided non-s

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > That's an excellent exploration that has more significance

> than

> > > some

> > > > realize. Suffering is resistance. When resistance is

removed,

> > > there is only

> > > > sensation. " Inquiring " into it necessitates the ending of

> > > resistance to it. We don't

> > > > explore that which we're resisting, we try to escape it.

> > > >

> > > > Physical and emotional suffering, panics, phobias,

> attachments,

> > > fear,

> > > > acceptance, surrender, the exploration of ego truth and

the

> > > willingness to

> > > > recognize Absolute Truth are all tied into resistance.

> > > >

> > > > Phil

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Len: Yes. I don´t know whether it is possible not to resist

> > extreme

> > > physical pain, gentle pain does indeed become less or may

even

> > > disapear when observed with attention. Anyway, physical

pain

> has

> > its

> > > protective function, so this part of resistance seems

necessary

> > for

> > > the protection of the body. Pain can also indicate an

illness,

> > and

> > > is as such an importnat source of information.

> > >

> > >

> > > Phil: If I'm not mistaken, we've been separating the

sensation

> of

> > pain from

> > > the suffering. Sensation is a physiological process that

> continues

> > and can

> > > continue to alert to bodily danger without the necessity of

> > suffering.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Len: It is the negative notion of the pain which alerts us.

> > If it is not experienced as suffering it won´t be alerting.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Phil: If I tap you on the shoulder will you be alerted? Is it

> likely to be

> > painful?

> > Learning not to create psychological suffering out of physical

> sensations

> > will not make you suddenly ignorant. If you would attempt an

> experiment such as

> > Michael described, you would find that there is still a

sensation

> that

> > increases as physical stress increases. This sensory

stimulation

> isn't affected,

> > only the psychological result.

> >

> > If you learn to eliminate suffering, but still wait for

suffering

> to occur

> > before paying attention to the body, who's fault is that?

If there was no notion of suffering, at certain point, Micheal

might

> have smashed his hand.

> I know you love theory, Phil.

> But let's get real:

> when you're in extasy when dying from cancer, please let me know :-

)

>

>

>

> Um...okay, A) You're working very hard to dismiss the point while

surmising

> that perhaps under different circumstances Michael might have hurt

himself.

> You're awfully sure of yourself for having never experienced

what's being

> discussed. how's about giving it the good ole college try first,

then come back

> and we can discuss from a place of experience rather than ignorance?

>

> B) I have no particular fondness for theory. I talk about what I

see and

> what I've experienced.

>

> C) Sarcasm doesn't suit you, and while you're busy questioning why

ego needs

> defensive, protective tactics at all, perhaps you have an

experimental

> vehicle right close to home with which you can work to answer

those questions?

>

> Phil

 

 

Do you ever suffer physical pain which, even when observed, doesn't

end and isn't perceived as something neutral, which you don't mind

persisting?

If you don't, that's great for you. Next step would be to have a big

surgery without anaestetics. Please tell me all about it, if you ever

try it.

 

Len