Guest guest Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 In a message dated 4/1/2006 6:43:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, lissbon2002 writes: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > > > >In a message dated 3/31/2006 11:52:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, > >Nisargadatta writes: > > > > Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:18:21 -0000 > > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 > >Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and > drank milk > > > >Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > >> > >> > >>In a message dated 3/30/2006 8:23:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, > >>Nisargadatta writes: > >> > >> Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:29:13 -0000 > >> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > >>Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and > >drank milk > >> > >>Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I have observed that my choices are the inevitable outcome > of > >my > >>experience. > >>>There is only one choice possible, given my conditions of > >birth, > >>the > >>>internal dynamics present at birth, my experience and all > of > >my > >>choices based on > >>> those conditions, dynamics and experience. All of that has > led > >to > >>the present > >>>moment in which I can make a choice. What choice will I > make? > >I > >>will make the > >> >only one I can based on what came before. > >>> > >>>My ego would dearly love to find that it has volitional > >choice, > >>and it > >>>generally pretends it does even though I know better, but > I'll > >be > >>damned if I can > >>>find a 'me' who is able to do that. I'm more than willing > to > >>change my mind > >>>about that. > >>> > >>> Phil > >> > >> > >> > >>What you´re saying is an Advaita conditioning. > >>Let´s look at it afresh: > >>You are conditioned. Because of your conditioning you see only > >one > >>possibility of reacting (or at least, the possibilities are > >limited > >>to a certain spectrum). You say that there is no volition in > it. > >>But, in fact, from a larger perspective, there are billions of > >>possibilities of reacting and chosing. Your choice is limited > to > >>only one. You have been conditioned to chose this possibility > >among > >>other. You have been conditioned to WANT this possibility > among > >>others. You have been conditioned to WANT something. We all > have > >>been conditioned to WANT something, we all have been > conditioned > >to > >>CHOOSE something. So our conditioning is our volition. > >> When there is no conditioning, there is no volition. > >>You don´t have a choice to be free from volition, but through > >> understanding of the limitation of chosing, the limitation of > >> volition, you may be free from it. > >> > >>Len > >> > >> > >> > >>I do not see only one possibility, I make only one choice of > many > >potential > >>possibilities, just as you do. I experience the choosing, just > as > >you do. Yes, > >> there is conditioning. How is conditioning volition? If all > that > >goes into a > >> choice is conditioning, where is the volition? There must be > >something > >>present that can choose against it's conditioning. Can you > make a > >choice against > >>your conditioning? Are you sure you weren't conditioned to do > >that? > >> > >>The only entity I see is not a volitional entity. It is merely > >observing a > >> process occurring; it is neither thinking nor choosing. With > all > >the activity > >>occurring, there seems to be nothing doing the activity. It > seems > >to be > >>occurring on it's own. > >> > >>Phil > > > > > > > >You have been conditioned to WANT some things and not to WANT > some > >other. > >You´ve been conditioned into volition. > >Freedom from volition is freedom from conditioning. > > > >Len > > > > > > > >My dictionary says volition means: > > > > " the power of choosing or determining " > > > >I've been conditioned to choose and freedom from conditioning > means no > >choosing. Fine. This does not leave me with volitional choice. > > > Freedom from desire > >is not the same as volitional choice. > > > > No, volitional choice is to be stuck in desires, to be stuck in > wanting and not wanting. > > > > >Even if it were, removing the > >conditioning is not possible and so the volition would only be > theoretical. > > > >Phil > > > > This is a belief you´ve been conditioned to hang on to. > > Len L.E: It seems you do not accept the possibility of freedom, seeing truth, knowing what exists etc., since everbodies experience of life is the result of beliefs and conditioning. Conditioning usually inplies a conditioner, someone who is acting or operating on another to force them to change their values or sense of reality to another's view of things. Perhaps advertising or the media is the conditioner, or reading the bible, where the text is the conditioner. I suppose there are many conditioners and as such, there is no way to grow up free from conditioning. If all this is accurate, there is still a way out, a crack in the eggshell of conditioning, techniques and methods to break the spell of conditioning. The problem with being conditioned by the conditioning forces is that once within it, there doesn't seem to be an outside or an escape. Yet some to see the trap they are in and try to break free, and out of those few, a few escape and try to send messages to those still trapped. Larry Epston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 4/1/2006 6:43:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, > lissbon2002 writes: > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > >In a message dated 3/31/2006 11:52:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > >Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:18:21 -0000 > > > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > > >Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and > > drank milk > > > > > >Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>In a message dated 3/30/2006 8:23:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > >>Nisargadatta writes: > > >> > > >> Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:29:13 -0000 > > >> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > > >>Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and > > >drank milk > > >> > > >>Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>I have observed that my choices are the inevitable outcome > > of > > >my > > >>experience. > > >>>There is only one choice possible, given my conditions of > > >birth, > > >>the > > >>>internal dynamics present at birth, my experience and all > > of > > >my > > >>choices based on > > >>> those conditions, dynamics and experience. All of that has > > led > > >to > > >>the present > > >>>moment in which I can make a choice. What choice will I > > make? > > >I > > >>will make the > > >> >only one I can based on what came before. > > >>> > > >>>My ego would dearly love to find that it has volitional > > >choice, > > >>and it > > >>>generally pretends it does even though I know better, but > > I'll > > >be > > >>damned if I can > > >>>find a 'me' who is able to do that. I'm more than willing > > to > > >>change my mind > > >>>about that. > > >>> > > >>> Phil > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>What you´re saying is an Advaita conditioning. > > >>Let´s look at it afresh: > > >>You are conditioned. Because of your conditioning you see only > > >one > > >>possibility of reacting (or at least, the possibilities are > > >limited > > >>to a certain spectrum). You say that there is no volition in > > it. > > >>But, in fact, from a larger perspective, there are billions of > > >>possibilities of reacting and chosing. Your choice is limited > > to > > >>only one. You have been conditioned to chose this possibility > > >among > > >>other. You have been conditioned to WANT this possibility > > among > > >>others. You have been conditioned to WANT something. We all > > have > > >>been conditioned to WANT something, we all have been > > conditioned > > >to > > >>CHOOSE something. So our conditioning is our volition. > > >> When there is no conditioning, there is no volition. > > >>You don´t have a choice to be free from volition, but through > > >> understanding of the limitation of chosing, the limitation of > > >> volition, you may be free from it. > > >> > > >>Len > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>I do not see only one possibility, I make only one choice of > > many > > >potential > > >>possibilities, just as you do. I experience the choosing, just > > as > > >you do. Yes, > > >> there is conditioning. How is conditioning volition? If all > > that > > >goes into a > > >> choice is conditioning, where is the volition? There must be > > >something > > >>present that can choose against it's conditioning. Can you > > make a > > >choice against > > >>your conditioning? Are you sure you weren't conditioned to do > > >that? > > >> > > >>The only entity I see is not a volitional entity. It is merely > > >observing a > > >> process occurring; it is neither thinking nor choosing. With > > all > > >the activity > > >>occurring, there seems to be nothing doing the activity. It > > seems > > >to be > > >>occurring on it's own. > > >> > > >>Phil > > > > > > > > > > > >You have been conditioned to WANT some things and not to WANT > > some > > >other. > > >You´ve been conditioned into volition. > > >Freedom from volition is freedom from conditioning. > > > > > >Len > > > > > > > > > > > >My dictionary says volition means: > > > > > > " the power of choosing or determining " > > > > > >I've been conditioned to choose and freedom from conditioning > > means no > > >choosing. Fine. This does not leave me with volitional choice. > > > > > Freedom from desire > > >is not the same as volitional choice. > > > > > > > > No, volitional choice is to be stuck in desires, to be stuck in > > wanting and not wanting. > > > > > > > > >Even if it were, removing the > > >conditioning is not possible and so the volition would only be > > theoretical. > > > > > >Phil > > > > > > > > This is a belief you´ve been conditioned to hang on to. > > > > Len > L.E: It seems you do not accept the possibility of freedom, seeing truth, > knowing what exists etc., I don´t think you understood what I said. You´re drawing wrong conclusion. Len > since everbodies experience of life is the result of > beliefs and conditioning. Conditioning usually inplies a conditioner, someone > who is acting or operating on another to force them to change their values or > sense of reality to another's view of things. Perhaps advertising or the > media is the conditioner, or reading the bible, where the text is the conditioner. > I suppose there are many conditioners and as such, there is no way to grow > up free from conditioning. > If all this is accurate, there is still a way out, a crack in the eggshell of > conditioning, > techniques and methods to break the spell of conditioning. The problem with > being conditioned by the conditioning forces is that once within it, there > doesn't seem to be an outside or an escape. Yet some to see the trap they are in > and try to break free, and out of those few, a few escape and try to send > messages to those still trapped. > > Larry Epston > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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