Guest guest Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 In a message dated 4/1/2006 8:49:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, adamson writes: > Most people, I would assume, think (and would even assert if asked) that > a hurricance is a *thing* --- a " thing " being a " noun " (i.e., person, > place, or thing). However, in my view, a hurricane (or a tornado, > whirlpool, fist, rain, etc) is NOT a " thing " , it is an " activity " , a > " verb " . If the activity, movement, or contraction ceases, where does the > *thing* go? Answer: The activity ceases and there is *no-thing* there > and *no-thing* to NOT be there as well. " It* was never there so how can > it (since there is no " it " ) have a " center " ? The so-called " it " is a > centerless activity. As Da Free John pointed out, hold your finger up > in a windstorm and everythng seems to be revolving around it. that there > is a center is merely an assumption that's unconscious, unexamined, and > unquestioned...hence it's pernicious and tenacious persistence. > > When I was in the 3rd grade I remember having the thought one day at > school, " It's raining. " Then I found myself wondering, " What is the > *it* that is raining? " Suddenly I realized that there was no *it " that > was " raining " , that *it* IS the *raining*. That " it " and the " raining " > are the same! There is raining " only " . The " sun " IS the " shining " . The > " thinker " IS the " thinking " . > > Just a passing note on ridding oneself of " conditioning " . As gool ol' J. > Krishnamurti pointed out, all intentional attempts to rid oneself of > one's conditioning spring out of the very conditioning itself. > Therefore, all such attempts simply serve to " modify " and perpetuate > one's conditioning in the terms and limitations of the conditioning > itself, not to mention solidify one's unquestioned assumption that there > is a *one " in the first place who is conditioned and can undo or change > their conditioning. There is no freedom in that " activity " . Merely the > reorginizations and redecoration of *one's* prison. Reminds me of a dog > chasing it's own tail. Lots of movement...yet going nowhere. :-) > > Michael > > L.E: Well Michael, you were doing really well in 3rd grade to follow that thought and see into the reality of the situation. And your comments about the hurricane are also well written. That relation between verbs and nouns has a lot of relevance to how we think and relate to our situation. I suppose it could be summed up as " it depends how you look at it. " And there are choice to be made. And those choices reflect who we are and how we are in life. One person may be lost in words and the other sees the livingness of things. Take the idea of clay and a cup. When does the clay turn into the cup? And is the cup ever just a cup or does it stay just clay, or is it a clay cup? And as the clay is dug up, and rolled out, is the flat sheet of clay a cup? No. And as the flat sheet gets lifted up all around is it a cup yet? No. Then the clay is lifted up and formed, and slowly, it becomes a cup. Does cup ever really exist? Or is it an abstraction and the only real essence is the clay. You see there is no distinct point where the clay becomes a cup but somehow the clay eventually has an added quality of cuppness. And so it is with the hurricane as a noun or a verb. It is not clear when it is one or the other. It depends and the person and his vision of things. It is both, it is neither, like many other aspects of life. Larry Epston www.epston.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Most people, I would assume, think (and would even assert if asked) that a hurricance is a *thing* --- a " thing " being a " noun " (i.e., person, place, or thing). However, in my view, a hurricane (or a tornado, whirlpool, fist, rain, etc) is NOT a " thing " , it is an " activity " , a " verb " . If the activity, movement, or contraction ceases, where does the *thing* go? Answer: The activity ceases and there is *no-thing* there and *no-thing* to NOT be there as well. " It* was never there so how can it (since there is no " it " ) have a " center " ? The so-called " it " is a centerless activity. As Da Free John pointed out, hold your finger up in a windstorm and everythng seems to be revolving around it. that there is a center is merely an assumption that's unconscious, unexamined, and unquestioned...hence it's pernicious and tenacious persistence. When I was in the 3rd grade I remember having the thought one day at school, " It's raining. " Then I found myself wondering, " What is the *it* that is raining? " Suddenly I realized that there was no *it " that was " raining " , that *it* IS the *raining*. That " it " and the " raining " are the same! There is raining " only " . The " sun " IS the " shining " . The " thinker " IS the " thinking " . Just a passing note on ridding oneself of " conditioning " . As gool ol' J. Krishnamurti pointed out, all intentional attempts to rid oneself of one's conditioning spring out of the very conditioning itself. Therefore, all such attempts simply serve to " modify " and perpetuate one's conditioning in the terms and limitations of the conditioning itself, not to mention solidify one's unquestioned assumption that there is a *one " in the first place who is conditioned and can undo or change their conditioning. There is no freedom in that " activity " . Merely the reorginizations and redecoration of *one's* prison. Reminds me of a dog chasing it's own tail. Lots of movement...yet going nowhere. :-) Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson wrote: > > > Most people, I would assume, think (and would even assert if asked) that > a hurricance is a *thing* --- a " thing " being a " noun " (i.e., person, > place, or thing). However, in my view, a hurricane (or a tornado, > whirlpool, fist, rain, etc) is NOT a " thing " , it is an " activity " , a > " verb " . If the activity, movement, or contraction ceases, where does the > *thing* go? Answer: The activity ceases and there is *no-thing* there > and *no-thing* to NOT be there as well. " It* was never there so how can > it (since there is no " it " ) have a " center " ? The so-called " it " is a > centerless activity. As Da Free John pointed out, hold your finger up > in a windstorm and everythng seems to be revolving around it. that there > is a center is merely an assumption that's unconscious, unexamined, and > unquestioned...hence it's pernicious and tenacious persistence. > > When I was in the 3rd grade I remember having the thought one day at > school, " It's raining. " Then I found myself wondering, " What is the > *it* that is raining? " Suddenly I realized that there was no *it " that > was " raining " , that *it* IS the *raining*. That " it " and the " raining " > are the same! There is raining " only " . The " sun " IS the " shining " . The > " thinker " IS the " thinking " . > > Just a passing note on ridding oneself of " conditioning " . As gool ol' J. > Krishnamurti pointed out, all intentional attempts to rid oneself of > one's conditioning spring out of the very conditioning itself. > Therefore, all such attempts simply serve to " modify " and perpetuate > one's conditioning in the terms and limitations of the conditioning > itself, not to mention solidify one's unquestioned assumption that there > is a *one " in the first place who is conditioned and can undo or change > their conditioning. There is no freedom in that " activity " . Merely the > reorginizations and redecoration of *one's* prison. Reminds me of a dog > chasing it's own tail. Lots of movement...yet going nowhere. :-) > > Michael > Wonderfully lucid. The bit about the rain and " it " I especially like. Again, you were quite precocious! Regarding the last paragraph where you speak of attempts to rid oneself of one's conditioning (with which I agree), some questions: * Is the notion of " conditioning " useful? * Is there such a thing as " freedom from conditioning " ? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 In a message dated 4/1/2006 9:38:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 08:48:11 -0800 " Adamson " <adamson Conditioning and a " Center " Most people, I would assume, think (and would even assert if asked) that a hurricance is a *thing* --- a " thing " being a " noun " (i.e., person, place, or thing). However, in my view, a hurricane (or a tornado, whirlpool, fist, rain, etc) is NOT a " thing " , it is an " activity " , a " verb " . If the activity, movement, or contraction ceases, where does the *thing* go? Answer: The activity ceases and there is *no-thing* there and *no-thing* to NOT be there as well. " It* was never there so how can it (since there is no " it " ) have a " center " ? The so-called " it " is a centerless activity. As Da Free John pointed out, hold your finger up in a windstorm and everythng seems to be revolving around it. that there is a center is merely an assumption that's unconscious, unexamined, and unquestioned...hence it's pernicious and tenacious persistence. When I was in the 3rd grade I remember having the thought one day at school, " It's raining. " Then I found myself wondering, " What is the *it* that is raining? " Suddenly I realized that there was no *it " that was " raining " , that *it* IS the *raining*. That " it " and the " raining " are the same! There is raining " only " . The " sun " IS the " shining " . The " thinker " IS the " thinking " . Just a passing note on ridding oneself of " conditioning " . As gool ol' J. Krishnamurti pointed out, all intentional attempts to rid oneself of one's conditioning spring out of the very conditioning itself. Therefore, all such attempts simply serve to " modify " and perpetuate one's conditioning in the terms and limitations of the conditioning itself, not to mention solidify one's unquestioned assumption that there is a *one " in the first place who is conditioned and can undo or change their conditioning. There is no freedom in that " activity " . Merely the reorginizations and redecoration of *one's* prison. Reminds me of a dog chasing it's own tail. Lots of movement...yet going nowhere. :-) Michael Yes, lots of movement going nowhere, but the object isn't to get anywhere. The object is to learn how to stop moving. The trap is that stopping the movement isn't something that can be chosen, but rather something that occurs at the end of a great deal of movement. I see that there is no volition, but the activity is not meaningless in terms of awakening, and if one has been conditioned to believe it is, this prolongs the experience of illusion. The way out of the illusion isn't found within the illusion, but a way out doesn't need to be found since the illusion never held us here to begin with, we just need to stop creating the illusion. The prison is made of paper mache, and every time it rains, we hang another poster over the hole so that we don't notice the Truth. What does it take to learn to stop doing that? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 In a message dated 4/2/2006 2:07:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ADHHUB writes: > I see that there is no volition, but the activity is not meaningless in > terms of awakening, and if one has been conditioned to believe it is, this > prolongs the experience of illusion. The way out of the illusion isn't found > within > the illusion, but a way out doesn't need to be found since the illusion > never held us here to begin with, we just need to stop creating the > illusion. The > prison is made of paper mache, and every time it rains, we hang another > poster over the hole so that we don't notice the Truth. What does it take to > > learn to stop doing that? > > Phil L.E: Simply sit in silence and as you continue being who you are, at that moment, you have stopped doing that. Larry Epston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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