Guest guest Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 In a message dated 4/6/2006 4:11:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, adithya_comming writes: > Enlightenment doesn't terminate the 'suffering creating' abilities. It > shows the un-necessity of them. You see that the " End of Suffering " is > not only possible but that in fact, there is " NO " suffering unless you > make an effort to create it! L.E: This is a peculiar and unusual state of being If you can live in a place where the only suffering that exists is what you consciously create, why would the enlightened person do that at all? Who and how many can exist in ordinary life and not make that effort to create suffering. Can anyone who is married or a parent maintain it? Can anyone in an ordinary business or an employee not create it? Rather than talk about " enlightenment " as a thing, talk about it as a state or condition that a person is experiencing, rather than as an abstract entity. Otherwise it is just an abstract fantasy like talking about heaven and hell Why are you not bold enough to say, " in the state of enlightenment that I am experiencing, " or " the enlightenment that is my reality? " Why can't you and others own it in a direct and obvious way? Certainly you can say " I feel happy, " and I feel sad, " or " I am an intelligent person, " so why can't enlightenment be expressed that way? What is so different about it. Larry Epston Larry Epston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 In a message dated 4/6/2006 7:59:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gdtige writes: > > > > Never can we be in enlightement, > But if there is a crack in one of us, > Can Grace sip (SLIP?)in. > > Patricia L.E: Once it has slipped in, will you know it is inside of you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 >>>> Enlightenment doesn't terminate the 'suffering creating' abilities. It shows the un-necessity of them. You see that the " End of Suffering " is not only possible but that in fact, there is " NO " suffering unless you make an effort to create it! >>L.E: This is a peculiar and unusual state of being If you can live in a place where the only suffering that exists is what you consciously create, Based on my observations, this is the only kind of 'suffering' that really exists irrespective of what 'state' you are in! However, you don't usually create suffering 'consciously'... you create it because you remain... 'unconscious'! >>why would the enlightened person do that at all? 'Conditioning' the old deeply ingrained 'habit' is the explanations! 'Habits' work in time! They take time to form... they also take some time to 'go away'! >>Who and how many can exist in ordinary life and not make that effort to create suffering. To a great extent... many... How much and what kind of 'suffering' people create in their day-to-day living vary greatly! Whether there are people who NEVER suffer? My answer is... No! To some extent suffering [mental pain] is an inbuilt human response and though rarely... it can still automatically arise sometimes! Those who are Conscious are able to 'sense' and 'recognize' it promptly are able to 'consciously' 'guide' their body, mind, thoughts and emotions! But, there is still a [small but not zero] gap between still present automatic 'human' response and the 'Conscious' __Pain Free__ Action! Based on my experience and understanding, those gaps will continue to exist in some areas as those are often first 'natural' response to an input. As the mind, body and brain *learns* to operate consciously and free of pain... the inputs that can produce that automatic _pain based_ response becomes less and less... but, they are many such 'possible' inputs to last any lifetime and some of them are of totally unknown type [and thus not 'consciously' processed]! >>Can anyone who is married or a parent maintain it? Same as above... *Married* certainly remain more face-to-face with *inputs* than those without a close male-female relationships. >>Can anyone in an ordinary business or an employee not create it? That is relatively much easier than *married*, *family* kind of relationships. Many people are able to keep *emotions* and *feelings* out of *professional* work and many others are able to greatly *limit* it! Professional work easily lends itself to learning and adopting... In family and close *emotion* and *feeling* based relationships *inducing* pain sometimes become a challenge for the other participants and they might *innovate* newer ways to *hurt* if the older ones were not working! They often see it as *necessary* in order to maintain *CONTROL* that they believe they must keep! >>Rather than talk about " enlightenment " as a thing, talk about it as a state or condition that a person is experiencing, rather than as an abstract entity. I think that is a fine way of looking at it. >>Otherwise it is just an abstract fantasy like talking about heaven and hell. Yes. It is not *end of suffering* in the sense that *you can NOT create suffering*!!! It is *end of suffering* that comes as a potential because now you are TRULY able to experience the state that is *free of problems* and you are able to clearly SEE *how* and *why* you do create your suffering! It is merely the dawn of a new Insight, knowledge and Awareness... What happens afterwards is NOT a 'fixed' Final reality that happens to each and everyone .... i.e. not everyone who gains this *awareness* and *insight* automatically gains the *freedom* that likes of Ramana might have gained! >>Why are you not bold enough to say, " in the state of enlightenment that I am experiencing, " or " the enlightenment that is my reality? " I have said such things openly, honestly and frankly many times! I don't see it too much a question of *boldness*! I see it more of talking of *enlightenment* in an ordinary sense and not *labeling* someone [the writer] as someone *special* and the potential reader as something 'different'! It is the effort of avoiding 'gaps'... And, based on my observation, there are no real HARD gaps... >>Why can't you and others own it in a direct and obvious way? Certainly you can say " I feel happy, " and I feel sad, " or " I am an intelligent person, " so why can't enlightenment be expressed that way? What is so different about it. I don't think there is much difficulty in doing so. And, many people do indeed express it! However, as many have [rightLY] expressed, it is quite an ordinary and normal thing really and thus, some think it is not worth making too much noise about *having it*! *Understanding* that is something different... because, it can be really *applied* to day-to-day living and can resolve problems and make things easier and smoother! The knowledge of whether *X* is enlightened or not... rarely serves such *useful* purpose! >>Larry Epston PS: Thanks a lot for the mail, Larry! I really like your writing style and the way you think and way you express your thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Never can we be in enlightement, But if there is a crack in one of us, Can Grace sip in. Patricia _________________________ Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2006 Report Share Posted April 7, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > > Never can we be in enlightement, > But if there is a crack in one of us, > Can Grace sip in. > > Patricia Humility, surrender, Grace... and pretty much in that order. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2006 Report Share Posted April 7, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 4/6/2006 7:59:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gdtige > writes: > > > > > > > > > Never can we be in enlightement, > > But if there is a crack in one of us, > > Can Grace sip (SLIP?)in. > > > > Patricia > > L.E: Once it has slipped in, will you know it is inside of you? > one who knows cannot pretend not to know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2006 Report Share Posted April 7, 2006 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba wrote: > > Nisargadatta , epston@ wrote: > > > > In a message dated 4/6/2006 7:59:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > gdtige@ > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Never can we be in enlightement, > > > But if there is a crack in one of us, > > > Can Grace sip (SLIP?)in. > > > > > > Patricia > > > > L.E: Once it has slipped in, will you know it is inside of you? > > > > one who knows cannot pretend not to know > a rather deep comment, actually... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2006 Report Share Posted April 7, 2006 In a message dated 4/7/2006 2:25:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bigwaaba writes: > > > >>Never can we be in enlightement, > >>But if there is a crack in one of us, > >>Can Grace sip (SLIP?)in. > >> > >>Patricia > > > >L.E: Once it has slipped in, will you know it is inside of you? > > > > one who knows cannot pretend not to know > > > L.E: One who knows can pretend not to know when surrounded by enemies and > those who will burn and torture him/her if he speaks or shows any sign of being > different from those around him. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2006 Report Share Posted April 7, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 4/7/2006 2:25:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > bigwaaba writes: > > > > > > >>Never can we be in enlightement, > > >>But if there is a crack in one of us, > > >>Can Grace sip (SLIP?)in. > > >> > > >>Patricia > > > > > >L.E: Once it has slipped in, will you know it is inside of you? > > > > > > > one who knows cannot pretend not to know > > > > > > L.E: One who knows can pretend not to know when surrounded by enemies and > > those who will burn and torture him/her if he speaks or shows any sign of being > > different from those around him. > > > > > Are you different Larry? Whew! That's the Gospel..the Good News and Glad Tidings I've been waiting to hear. We are different one from the other then! Nice stuff for theses eyes to hear and ears to see. :::--ooo)------< With all the love that you have shown me, I now giveth the same in return, Bob > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 4/7/2006 2:25:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > bigwaaba writes: > > > > > > >>Never can we be in enlightement, > > >>But if there is a crack in one of us, > > >>Can Grace sip (SLIP?)in. > > >> > > >>Patricia > > > > > >L.E: Once it has slipped in, will you know it is inside of you? > > > > > > > one who knows cannot pretend not to know > > > > > > L.E: One who knows can pretend not to know when surrounded by enemies and > > those who will burn and torture him/her if he speaks or shows any sign of being > > different from those around him. > > > > > No Larry, it is not like that. the opposite works: one who doesn't know can pretend to know, and, funny enough, can pretend not to know too! i'm sure about it, it is not like that. Grace erases any sign of being different it is life in all its vulnerability and glory Waaba Christ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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