Guest guest Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 .... I myself am [or, was] *able* to *torture* myself using many *devices*! When I was in my early teens, it was about how my father *shouldn't* expect too much from me, how he should have left me alone and how... I *should have* studied more!*** Thinking this neither changed my father's expectations nor did it really *improve* my study habits! However, using these devices I was able to *torture* myself many times! When I grew little older, it was about how my girlfriend should have been more faithful to me! Again, thinking that didn't change my girlfriend that much but, I was certainly successful in *torturing* *myself*!**** Many times, it was also things that might be considered *laughable* [as I had NOTHING to do with them and had absolutely NO control over them]! These included... India should not have been attacked so many times, Indian temples and universities shouldn't have been burnt and destroyed in attacks, Indians should not have been raped, tortured, killed by attackers as well as... India *should not lose* in sports! Laughable as they might be... they were quite *effective* in creating Pain! Even now, I have at my disposal many such *self torturing device* that I can use to *inflict* pain on myself and by *extension* on others too! These include: ------- People should be truthful, honest and fair! [When in reality, people are ONLY how they Are!] ------- Honest, truthful and noble people should be rewarded and respected and cherished! ------- Monitory rewards should be in proportion to people's positive impact, productivity and contribution towards the betterment of the society! ------- Cheaters, frauds, liars, manipulators, dishonest people and cruel attackers should have less power and money! ------- People should be honest, fair, factual, truthful, impartial and honest when expressing their opinions! Closer home... though, I am married to an extremely beautiful woman [who also has great smile and a charming outgoing personality], who is a wonderful cook, loves me dearly, has body like an angel and f* like a queen and pretty much fulfills any s* fantasy that I could think have [as long as it doesn't involves other women] But, I am also conditioned [trained] to expect my wife to be *respectful*, responsible, well organized, disciplined, should respect my boundaries and give me space and some freedom, should emotionally be in control and to make real effective effort to maintain and run the house! Based on *training*, my wife is neither...! Based on my training [and my 'conditioned' thinking] my wife is extremely possessive, very controlling, and jealous, is very lazy, never hesitate before fighting with me, is not at all organized or responsible and does as little as she can possibly get away with! [based on my own training and *valuation*, I too am lazy, unorganized, undisciplined, inconsistent and often unpredictable!] All these give me ample opportunities to *torture* myself and sometimes also invite my family to *join in*! For example: ------ My wife should not sleep more than 10 hours a day! Whereas, if I think little rationally about it... it might be quite natural and *logical* for her to want to sleep as long as she can and expect me to take care of whatever needed to be taken care of! This might indeed bring her greater comfort and from her *perspective*, she might indeed be doing what she feels is *good* for her [and, her *perspective* is pretty much only she can really HAVE!]! Is not it really logical for her to think and know what *she likes*, what gives her pleasure, what gives her happiness and worry *less* [or, not at all] for what I think? Isn't that natural for me too...? Really, is there any reason... she should care at all for me? Isn't it logical for me to focus only what *I* *should* do rather than *thinking* for my wife and worry about what *she should be doing*? To my surprise, I have noticed that when I FULLY FOCUS only on *what I should be doing*... -------- I feel 'empowered'! ------- I feel at *home*! ------- I feel at *peace*, at *ease*! ------- I feel naturally *loving*, compassionate , kind, accepting and joyous... and, the greatest surprise, my wife generally responds to it in a very positive way without me making any extra effort to *change* her or even to *inform* her that I have changed my *attitude*! Whereas, ONTOH... when I keep think about *what she should be doing*... I feel frustrated, angry [as I seem to lack real POWER], irritated and generally, I only succeed in creating arguments, fights, heated discussions... no real change on the either side! ... So, why would I ever do the second [focus and think about what *she should be doing*] rather than ONLY focus on thinking and doing... *what I should be doing*? My understanding is that it is due to the following reasons: ----- Habits have Great Power! ----- I am [we are] conditioned to think and behave certain way and his 'conditioning' has taken place over thy years! ------ Habits [conditioning] takes time to form and habits [conditioning] takes time to dissolve! ---order to dissolve a habit, watchfulness, vigilance and practice is required. ------- Whenever the *guards* [Presence, Consciousness, Awareness] are down, *habits* [conditioning] runs the life! ------- For most situations, in order to *live* a life, only breaking a habit is not enough... a new *good* habit should be put in place to deal with *situations* as it is really not possible to be able to always give full attention to everything [especially, because we are often required to do many things *at once*]! Further, I am [we are] *trained* to think in terms of *comparison* and being *I am RIGHT v/s she/he is WRONG* [in place of being free v/s bound or peaceful versus 'at war'] and, as a result, I [we] are conditioned to derive *pleasure* from thinking/imagining/knowing/learning that other person is *wrong* and is not doing what he/she *should* be doing! And, we do it even when doing so means *loss of peace* to ourselves [after all, this is how *addiction* works... we do it even when in reality, they *harm* us...] ---- ***When, I think rationally about it, it was quite natural and right for my father to think that way. He thought he had made some drastic mistakes that he was sure he wouldn't allow his son to make! For him, that was Far More important than what I, a 10 year old child might have wanted or preferred. Further, as with any human being, it wasn't even possible for him to know what really went on *inside me* just as it was not really possible for me to know what went on *inside him*! ****When I think rationally about my girlfriend, it was perhaps, only logical and natural for her to want company of other boys! Some of them were even better looking, richer and more resourceful [which might translate to greater *FUN*] than myself! And, in fact... I too desired other girls and sometimes even went ahead to act on it! I was only thinking from *my perspective* and she was only thinking from *her perspective*... yet, it was painful only when I tried thinking for *herself*... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 ******However, in my observation, even deeper than these two and consequently harder to *realize*, *acknowledge* and break is our unconscious *belief* that if didn't find something very BAD, hurtful and WRONG and didn't continue to think that someone *should not have done it*... I wouldn't be able to *change* it [or *punish* the perpetrator as might be the case]! Further, this belief in blindly based on an *imagination* that by persisting to keep calling it *BAD*, I am somehow able to *PUNISH* the perpetrator [and do what I think is *needed*]... when, in reality, I might be only really punishing myself! To expose the *insanity* of this *habit*, please consider my example of my finding attacks on India and consequent rape and torture of children by attackers BAD and HURTFUL... Each time, I was able to fully create and *feel* the *badness* that I thought those attackers had inflicted... it was ONLY *I* who suffered... those attackers were long dead and it made absolutely no difference to them! If we examine SUCH behavior from some distance, it might be seen as: ------- *I* should keep on torturing *myself* because you did something to me! ------- *I* believe that the ONLY way I can take an action that I feel is right [which might include my effort to put you behind bars] is... if I keep *hurting* *myself*! ------- I believe that unless I keep *hurting*... I can not *punish* you! ------- I believe that by *hurting myself*... I am *punishing you*! -------- I have been taught that certain things that happened are BAD and it is natural to feel bad when such things happen! Therefore, I am obviously *RIGHT* if I keep *hurting*! -------- I believe that unless I keep holding resentment against something that happened... I can NOT do the *RIGHT* thing that I need to do in order to respond to it! -------- If you do something that I have been *taught* are *bad* and *hurtful*... I *MUST* feel bad and hurt! -------- If you do something that I have been taught is supposed to create *suffering*... I *must* suffer! -------- If don't keep resenting something [and as a result, I don't suffer, don't feel anymore pain]... it means I *agree* with what you did! -------- How can I *feel good* if you did something that I know is *bad*! It is Impossible [i am not even going to *really* try! You did this, so, I suffer... I am NOT going to even question if I really *need* to suffer!]! If we examine closely, we might find that most of these are erroneous yet lot of our *repeated* pain is based on these unconscious unexamined beliefs! [NNB] [...] > > To my surprise, I have noticed that > when I FULLY FOCUS only on *what I > should be doing*... > > -------- I feel 'empowered'! > > ------- I feel at *home*! > > ------- I feel at *peace*, at *ease*! > > ------- I feel naturally *loving*, compassionate > , kind, accepting and joyous... > > > and, the greatest surprise, my wife > generally responds to it in a very > positive way without me making any > extra effort to *change* her or even to > *inform* her that I have changed my > *attitude*! > > > Whereas, ONTOH... when I keep think > about *what she should be doing*... I > feel frustrated, angry [as I seem to > lack real POWER], irritated and > generally, I only succeed in creating > arguments, fights, heated > discussions... no real change on the > either side! > > > ... > > > So, why would I ever do the second > [focus and think about what *she should > be doing*] rather than ONLY focus on > thinking and doing... *what I should be > doing*? > > My understanding is that it is due to > the following reasons: > > ----- Habits have Great Power! > > ----- I am [we are] conditioned to > think and behave certain way and his > 'conditioning' has taken place over thy > years! > > ------ Habits [conditioning] takes > time to form and habits [conditioning] > takes time to dissolve! > > ---order to dissolve a habit, > watchfulness, vigilance and practice is > required. > > ------- Whenever the *guards* > [Presence, Consciousness, Awareness] > are down, *habits* [conditioning] runs > the life! > > ------- For most situations, in order > to *live* a life, only breaking a habit > is not enough... a new *good* habit > should be put in place to deal with > *situations* as it is really not > possible to be able to always give full > attention to everything [especially, > because we are often required to do > many things *at once*]! > > > > Further, I am [we are] *trained* to > think in terms of *comparison* and > being *I am RIGHT v/s she/he is WRONG* [in place of > being free v/s bound or peaceful versus > 'at war'] and, as a result, I [we] are > conditioned to derive *pleasure* from > thinking/imagining/knowing/learning > that other person is *wrong* and is not > doing what he/she *should* be doing! > And, we do it even when doing so means > *loss of peace* to ourselves [after > all, this is how *addiction* works... > we do it even when in reality, they > *harm* us...] [...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 ....and, possibly most Unconscious of them all... You did something to *HURT* me... therefore, I *MUST* Hurt! IOW... I am going to *help you* in *hurting* myself because, this is what you really wanted! I am going to make sure, that I *hurt* even though... you may not have really succeeded in *hurting* myself... *on your own*! [NNB] Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming wrote: > > ******However, in my observation, even > deeper than these two and consequently > harder to *realize*, *acknowledge* and > break is our unconscious *belief* that > if didn't find something very BAD, > hurtful and WRONG and didn't continue > to think that someone *should not have > done it*... > > I wouldn't be able to *change* it [or > *punish* the perpetrator as might be > the case]! > > > Further, this belief in blindly based > on an *imagination* that by persisting > to keep calling it *BAD*, I am somehow > able to *PUNISH* the perpetrator [and > do what I think is *needed*]... when, > in reality, I might be only really > punishing myself! > > To expose the *insanity* of this > *habit*, please consider my example of > my finding attacks on India and > consequent rape and torture of children > by attackers BAD and HURTFUL... > > Each time, I was able to fully create > and *feel* the *badness* that I thought > those attackers had inflicted... it was > ONLY *I* who suffered... those > attackers were long dead and it made > absolutely no difference to them! > > > If we examine SUCH behavior from some > distance, it might be seen as: > > ------- *I* should keep on torturing > *myself* because you did something to me! > > ------- *I* believe that the ONLY way > I can take an action that I feel is > right [which might include my effort to > put you behind bars] is... if I keep > *hurting* *myself*! > > ------- I believe that unless I keep > *hurting*... I can not *punish* you! > > ------- I believe that by *hurting > myself*... I am *punishing you*! > > -------- I have been taught that > certain things that happened are BAD > and it is natural to feel bad when such > things happen! Therefore, I am > obviously *RIGHT* if I keep *hurting*! > > -------- I believe that unless I keep > holding resentment against something > that happened... I can NOT do the > *RIGHT* thing that I need to do in > order to respond to it! > > -------- If you do something that I > have been *taught* are *bad* and > *hurtful*... I *MUST* feel bad and hurt! > > -------- If you do something that I > have been taught is supposed to create > *suffering*... I *must* suffer! > > -------- If don't keep resenting > something [and as a result, I don't > suffer, don't feel anymore pain]... it > means I *agree* with what you did! > > -------- How can I *feel good* if you > did something that I know is *bad*! It > is Impossible [i am not even going to > *really* try! You did this, so, I > suffer... I am NOT going to even > question if I really *need* to suffer!]! > > > If we examine closely, we might find > that most of these are erroneous yet > lot of our *repeated* pain is based on > these unconscious unexamined beliefs! > > > > [NNB] > > > [...] > > > > > To my surprise, I have noticed that > > when I FULLY FOCUS only on *what I > > should be doing*... > > > > -------- I feel 'empowered'! > > > > ------- I feel at *home*! > > > > ------- I feel at *peace*, at *ease*! > > > > ------- I feel naturally *loving*, compassionate > > , kind, accepting and joyous... > > > > > > and, the greatest surprise, my wife > > generally responds to it in a very > > positive way without me making any > > extra effort to *change* her or even to > > *inform* her that I have changed my > > *attitude*! > > > > > > Whereas, ONTOH... when I keep think > > about *what she should be doing*... I > > feel frustrated, angry [as I seem to > > lack real POWER], irritated and > > generally, I only succeed in creating > > arguments, fights, heated > > discussions... no real change on the > > either side! > > > > > > ... > > > > > > So, why would I ever do the second > > [focus and think about what *she should > > be doing*] rather than ONLY focus on > > thinking and doing... *what I should be > > doing*? > > > > My understanding is that it is due to > > the following reasons: > > > > ----- Habits have Great Power! > > > > ----- I am [we are] conditioned to > > think and behave certain way and his > > 'conditioning' has taken place over thy > > years! > > > > ------ Habits [conditioning] takes > > time to form and habits [conditioning] > > takes time to dissolve! > > > > ---order to dissolve a habit, > > watchfulness, vigilance and practice is > > required. > > > > ------- Whenever the *guards* > > [Presence, Consciousness, Awareness] > > are down, *habits* [conditioning] runs > > the life! > > > > ------- For most situations, in order > > to *live* a life, only breaking a habit > > is not enough... a new *good* habit > > should be put in place to deal with > > *situations* as it is really not > > possible to be able to always give full > > attention to everything [especially, > > because we are often required to do > > many things *at once*]! > > > > > > > > Further, I am [we are] *trained* to > > think in terms of *comparison* and > > being *I am RIGHT v/s she/he is WRONG* [in place of > > being free v/s bound or peaceful versus > > 'at war'] and, as a result, I [we] are > > conditioned to derive *pleasure* from > > thinking/imagining/knowing/learning > > that other person is *wrong* and is not > > doing what he/she *should* be doing! > > And, we do it even when doing so means > > *loss of peace* to ourselves [after > > all, this is how *addiction* works... > > we do it even when in reality, they > > *harm* us...] > > [...] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming wrote: > > ...and, possibly most Unconscious of > them all... > > You did something to *HURT* me... > therefore, I *MUST* Hurt! > > IOW... I am going to *help you* in > *hurting* myself because, this is what > you really wanted! > > I am going to make > sure, that I *hurt* even though... you > may not have really succeeded in > *hurting* myself... *on your own*! > > > [NNB] > > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > wrote: > > > > ******However, in my observation, even > > deeper than these two and consequently > > harder to *realize*, *acknowledge* and > > break is our unconscious *belief* that > > if didn't find something very BAD, > > hurtful and WRONG and didn't continue > > to think that someone *should not have > > done it*... > > > > I wouldn't be able to *change* it [or > > *punish* the perpetrator as might be > > the case]! > > > > > > Further, this belief in blindly based > > on an *imagination* that by persisting > > to keep calling it *BAD*, I am somehow > > able to *PUNISH* the perpetrator [and > > do what I think is *needed*]... when, > > in reality, I might be only really > > punishing myself! > > > > To expose the *insanity* of this > > *habit*, please consider my example of > > my finding attacks on India and > > consequent rape and torture of children > > by attackers BAD and HURTFUL... > > > > Each time, I was able to fully create > > and *feel* the *badness* that I thought > > those attackers had inflicted... it was > > ONLY *I* who suffered... those > > attackers were long dead and it made > > absolutely no difference to them! > > > > > > If we examine SUCH behavior from some > > distance, it might be seen as: > > > > ------- *I* should keep on torturing > > *myself* because you did something to me! > > > > ------- *I* believe that the ONLY way > > I can take an action that I feel is > > right [which might include my effort to > > put you behind bars] is... if I keep > > *hurting* *myself*! > > > > ------- I believe that unless I keep > > *hurting*... I can not *punish* you! > > > > ------- I believe that by *hurting > > myself*... I am *punishing you*! > > > > -------- I have been taught that > > certain things that happened are BAD > > and it is natural to feel bad when such > > things happen! Therefore, I am > > obviously *RIGHT* if I keep *hurting*! > > > > -------- I believe that unless I keep > > holding resentment against something > > that happened... I can NOT do the > > *RIGHT* thing that I need to do in > > order to respond to it! > > > > -------- If you do something that I > > have been *taught* are *bad* and > > *hurtful*... I *MUST* feel bad and hurt! > > > > -------- If you do something that I > > have been taught is supposed to create > > *suffering*... I *must* suffer! > > > > -------- If don't keep resenting > > something [and as a result, I don't > > suffer, don't feel anymore pain]... it > > means I *agree* with what you did! > > > > -------- How can I *feel good* if you > > did something that I know is *bad*! It > > is Impossible [i am not even going to > > *really* try! You did this, so, I > > suffer... I am NOT going to even > > question if I really *need* to suffer!]! > > > > > > If we examine closely, we might find > > that most of these are erroneous yet > > lot of our *repeated* pain is based on > > these unconscious unexamined beliefs! > > > > > > > > [NNB] > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > To my surprise, I have noticed that > > > when I FULLY FOCUS only on *what I > > > should be doing*... > > > > > > -------- I feel 'empowered'! > > > > > > ------- I feel at *home*! > > > > > > ------- I feel at *peace*, at *ease*! > > > > > > ------- I feel naturally *loving*, compassionate > > > , kind, accepting and joyous... > > > > > > > > > and, the greatest surprise, my wife > > > generally responds to it in a very > > > positive way without me making any > > > extra effort to *change* her or even to > > > *inform* her that I have changed my > > > *attitude*! > > > > > > > > > Whereas, ONTOH... when I keep think > > > about *what she should be doing*... I > > > feel frustrated, angry [as I seem to > > > lack real POWER], irritated and > > > generally, I only succeed in creating > > > arguments, fights, heated > > > discussions... no real change on the > > > either side! > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > So, why would I ever do the second > > > [focus and think about what *she should > > > be doing*] rather than ONLY focus on > > > thinking and doing... *what I should be > > > doing*? > > > > > > My understanding is that it is due to > > > the following reasons: > > > > > > ----- Habits have Great Power! > > > > > > ----- I am [we are] conditioned to > > > think and behave certain way and his > > > 'conditioning' has taken place over thy > > > years! > > > > > > ------ Habits [conditioning] takes > > > time to form and habits [conditioning] > > > takes time to dissolve! > > > > > > ---order to dissolve a habit, > > > watchfulness, vigilance and practice is > > > required. > > > > > > ------- Whenever the *guards* > > > [Presence, Consciousness, Awareness] > > > are down, *habits* [conditioning] runs > > > the life! > > > > > > ------- For most situations, in order > > > to *live* a life, only breaking a habit > > > is not enough... a new *good* habit > > > should be put in place to deal with > > > *situations* as it is really not > > > possible to be able to always give full > > > attention to everything [especially, > > > because we are often required to do > > > many things *at once*]! > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, I am [we are] *trained* to > > > think in terms of *comparison* and > > > being *I am RIGHT v/s she/he is WRONG* [in place of > > > being free v/s bound or peaceful versus > > > 'at war'] and, as a result, I [we] are > > > conditioned to derive *pleasure* from > > > thinking/imagining/knowing/learning > > > that other person is *wrong* and is not > > > doing what he/she *should* be doing! > > > And, we do it even when doing so means > > > *loss of peace* to ourselves [after > > > all, this is how *addiction* works... > > > we do it even when in reality, they > > > *harm* us...] > > > > [...] > > > Arvind..quit torturing yourself. It's interesting but the circles go round and round. In any and all physical systems, and in some philosophical systems too. ..........bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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