Guest guest Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ADHHUB writes: > As you say, ego " takes possession " of those experiences, through > memory. So we need the capacity to see the difference between this > memory and the actual experience. The actual experience cannot be > cultivated. This realization is the end of complacency. > One could think that anybody who has seen a break through, cannot > confuse this experience with some images anymore, so that he > discovers, for ever, the difference between a fact and an image, > which makes it impossible to fool oneself at this point. > But I think that you´re right, some people may indeed have seen > something real, maybe strongly blurred by the ego, and then start > cultivating it as an image. > > Len > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of complacency' is integrity; the > willingness to see the truth that ego would position itself as God, or at > least the > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our concepts tell us this isn't > possible. > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word ego with the word devil or evil and have the same conversation. Any peek into religious literature will show you endless variations of the same kind of story-telling. Just read the crap that Dattrr writes. The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive these stories is endless, and you are part of the same process of imagination and spiritual storytelling. but you are so trapped in it that you have made is seem real. Read the literature about how the Catholic wafter is turned into the body of Christ if you want to read storytelling by another group of experts. Or who the Holy Ghost is and how he/it operates and there is another invented imaginary story. Those people are stuck in their stories just as you are. Rather pathetic, really. Larry Epston www.epston.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ADHHUB > writes: > > > As you say, ego " takes possession " of those experiences, through > > memory. So we need the capacity to see the difference between this > > memory and the actual experience. The actual experience cannot be > > cultivated. This realization is the end of complacency. > > One could think that anybody who has seen a break through, cannot > > confuse this experience with some images anymore, so that he > > discovers, for ever, the difference between a fact and an image, > > which makes it impossible to fool oneself at this point. > > But I think that you´re right, some people may indeed have seen > > something real, maybe strongly blurred by the ego, and then start > > cultivating it as an image. > > > > Len > > > > > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of complacency' is integrity; the > > willingness to see the truth that ego would position itself as God, or at > > least the > > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our concepts tell us this isn't > > possible. > > > > > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word ego with the word devil or > evil and have the same conversation. Any peek into religious literature will > show you endless variations of the same kind of story-telling. Just read the > crap that Dattrr writes. > The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive these stories is endless, and > you are part of the same process of imagination and spiritual storytelling. > but you are so trapped in it that you have made is seem real. Read the > literature about how the Catholic wafter is turned into the body of Christ if you > want to read storytelling by another group of experts. Or who the Holy Ghost is > and how he/it operates and there is another invented imaginary story. Those > people are stuck in their stories just as you are. Rather pathetic, really. > > Larry Epston > www.epston.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 In a message dated 4/14/2006 2:48:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:35:53 EDT epston lEgo as Devil In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ADHHUB writes: > As you say, ego " takes possession " of those experiences, through > memory. So we need the capacity to see the difference between this > memory and the actual experience. The actual experience cannot be > cultivated. This realization is the end of complacency. > One could think that anybody who has seen a break through, cannot > confuse this experience with some images anymore, so that he > discovers, for ever, the difference between a fact and an image, > which makes it impossible to fool oneself at this point. > But I think that you´re right, some people may indeed have seen > something real, maybe strongly blurred by the ego, and then start > cultivating it as an image. > > Len > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of complacency' is integrity; the > willingness to see the truth that ego would position itself as God, or at > least the > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our concepts tell us this isn't > possible. > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word ego with the word devil or evil and have the same conversation. Any peek into religious literature will show you endless variations of the same kind of story-telling. Just read the crap that Dattrr writes. The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive these stories is endless, and you are part of the same process of imagination and spiritual storytelling. but you are so trapped in it that you have made is seem real. Read the literature about how the Catholic wafter is turned into the body of Christ if you want to read storytelling by another group of experts. Or who the Holy Ghost is and how he/it operates and there is another invented imaginary story. Those people are stuck in their stories just as you are. Rather pathetic, really. Larry Epston Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme is repeated endlessly in all religious belief systems in symbol, parable, metaphor, analogy, simile, (Go figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're supposed to notice that what's being talked about is ego, but instead ego denies that ego exists or that anything at all can be done about it, and insists that it should be left alone for reasons that are never quite clear, and then calls all the symbolism that was intended to point to it, pathetic. What's fascinating to me is the irony of hiding from truth and then pretending to look for Truth. The gurus have no choice but to just say stop the nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly a fool and the more you look, the more ways you find to hide what you're looking for. There are only two kinds of seekers who have integrity; the one who gives up and stops seeking because he knows he's a fool, or the one who's willing to stop at nothing to end his foolishness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Len: As you say, ego " takes possession " of those experiences, through >memory. So we need the capacity to see the difference between this >memory and the actual experience. The actual experience cannot be >cultivated. This realization is the end of complacency. >One could think that anybody who has seen a break through, cannot >confuse this experience with some images anymore, so that he >discovers, for ever, the difference between a fact and an image, >which makes it impossible to fool oneself at this point. >But I think that you´re right, some people may indeed have seen >something real, maybe strongly blurred by the ego, and then start >cultivating it as an image. > >Len > > > >Phil: Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of complacency' is integrity; the >willingness to see the truth that ego would position itself as God, or at >least the >seer of God, in spite of the fact that our concepts tell us this isn't >possible. > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word ego with the word devil or evil and have the same conversation. Any peek into religious literature will show you endless variations of the same kind of story-telling. Just read the crap that Dattrr writes. The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive these stories is endless, and you are part of the same process of imagination and spiritual storytelling. but you are so trapped in it that you have made is seem real. Read the literature about how the Catholic wafter is turned into the body of Christ if you want to read storytelling by another group of experts. Or who the Holy Ghost is and how he/it operates and there is another invented imaginary story. Those people are stuck in their stories just as you are. Rather pathetic, really. Larry Epston Phil:Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme is repeated endlessly in all religious belief systems in symbol, parable, metaphor, analogy, simile, (Go figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're supposed to notice that what's being talked about is ego, but instead ego denies that ego exists or that anything at all can be done about it, and insists that it should be left alone for reasons that are never quite clear, and then calls all the symbolism that was intended to point to it, pathetic. What's fascinating to me is the irony of hiding from truth and then pretending to look for Truth. The gurus have no choice but to just say stop the nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly a fool and the more you look, the more ways you find to hide what you're looking for. There are only two kinds of seekers who have integrity; the one who gives up and stops seeking because he knows he's a fool, or the one who's willing to stop at nothing to end his foolishness. L.E: I'm enjoying reading your last post, but sorry, you missed my point. My point is, the your story about ego, and the religious-minded's talk about the Devil are both invented objects of imagination. There is no devil that operates in the world as believer think, and there is no ego that operates as you are describing it. I assert that the ego is a natural outgrowth of mind and is not a trickster or that the ego denies that the ego exists. After all, we are talking about its existence, and I affirm its existence, but not its behavior as you describe it. Funny how you avoid my point of view. Perhaps you are correct and are a victim of your own theory if it is correct. You are perhaps doing exactly what you are describing the ego does. I don't know what's inside you, but what you are describing is not inside me unless I am mistaken. Larry Epstonj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2006 Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/14/2006 2:48:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:35:53 EDT > epston > lEgo as Devil > > In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > ADHHUB > writes: > > > As you say, ego " takes possession " of those experiences, through > > memory. So we need the capacity to see the difference between this > > memory and the actual experience. The actual experience cannot be > > cultivated. This realization is the end of complacency. > > One could think that anybody who has seen a break through, cannot > > confuse this experience with some images anymore, so that he > > discovers, for ever, the difference between a fact and an image, > > which makes it impossible to fool oneself at this point. > > But I think that you´re right, some people may indeed have seen > > something real, maybe strongly blurred by the ego, and then start > > cultivating it as an image. > > > > Len > > > > > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of complacency' is integrity; the > > willingness to see the truth that ego would position itself as God, or at > > least the > > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our concepts tell us this isn't > > possible. > > > > > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word ego with the word devil or > evil and have the same conversation. Any peek into religious literature > will > show you endless variations of the same kind of story-telling. Just read > the > crap that Dattrr writes. > The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive these stories is endless, > and > you are part of the same process of imagination and spiritual storytelling. > but you are so trapped in it that you have made is seem real. Read the > literature about how the Catholic wafter is turned into the body of Christ > if you > want to read storytelling by another group of experts. Or who the Holy > Ghost is > and how he/it operates and there is another invented imaginary story. Those > people are stuck in their stories just as you are. Rather pathetic, really. > > Larry Epston > > > > > Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme is repeated endlessly in all > religious belief systems in symbol, parable, metaphor, analogy, simile, (Go > figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're supposed to notice that what's being > talked about is ego, but instead ego denies that ego exists or that anything > at all can be done about it, and insists that it should be left alone for > reasons that are never quite clear, and then calls all the symbolism that was > intended to point to it, pathetic. > > What's fascinating to me is the irony of hiding from truth and then > pretending to look for Truth. This is very clever, the best place to hide. > The gurus have no choice but to just say stop the > nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly a fool and the more you look, the > more ways you find to hide what you're looking for. Most, if not all guru´s are providing food for this search, which is again feeding their own ego. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2006 Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 4/14/2006 2:48:11 AM Pacific > Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:35:53 EDT > > epston@ > > lEgo as Devil > > > > In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM Pacific > Daylight Time, > > ADHHUB@ > > writes: > > > > > As you say, ego " takes possession " of those > experiences, > through > > > memory. So we need the capacity to see the > difference between > this > > > memory and the actual experience. The actual > experience cannot > be > > > cultivated. This realization is the end of > complacency. > > > One could think that anybody who has seen a > break through, > cannot > > > confuse this experience with some images anymore, > so that he > > > discovers, for ever, the difference between a > fact and an > image, > > > which makes it impossible to fool oneself at this > point. > > > But I think that you´re right, some people may > indeed have > seen > > > something real, maybe strongly blurred by the > ego, and then > start > > > cultivating it as an image. > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of complacency' > is integrity; > the > > > willingness to see the truth that ego would > position itself as > God, or at > > > least the > > > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our > concepts tell us > this isn't > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word > ego with the > word devil or > > evil and have the same conversation. Any peek into > religious > literature > > will > > show you endless variations of the same kind of > story-telling. > Just read > > the > > crap that Dattrr writes. > > The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive > these stories is > endless, > > and > > you are part of the same process of imagination and > spiritual > storytelling. > > but you are so trapped in it that you have made is > seem real. > Read the > > literature about how the Catholic wafter is turned > into the body > of Christ > > if you > > want to read storytelling by another group of > experts. Or who > the Holy > > Ghost is > > and how he/it operates and there is another > invented imaginary > story. Those > > people are stuck in their stories just as you are. > Rather > pathetic, really. > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme is > repeated > endlessly in all > > religious belief systems in symbol, parable, > metaphor, analogy, > simile, (Go > > figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're supposed > to notice that > what's being > > talked about is ego, but instead ego denies that ego > exists or > that anything > > at all can be done about it, and insists that it > should be left > alone for > > reasons that are never quite clear, and then calls > all the > symbolism that was > > intended to point to it, pathetic. > > > > What's fascinating to me is the irony of hiding from > truth and > then > > pretending to look for Truth. > > > > This is very clever, the best place to hide. > > > > > The gurus have no choice but to just say stop the > > nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly a fool > and the more > you look, the > > more ways you find to hide what you're looking for. > > > > Most, if not all guru´s are providing food for this > search, which is > again feeding their own ego. > > Len > > To get raid of ego takes a very strong ego. > Then why always complain about experiences, about > gurus, about seeking and finding, about imagination > dreams, intuition, and invented imaginary stories : > there is no need to throw it all overboard, as long as > those means aren`t confused w/ the end. > The only important attitude is pure longing and > whatever you long for will surely meet you, and take > over you if your longing is strong enough. > The path of experience, the school of life is very > alive and there is no better catalyst. > And if Ego wants to play God, play God. > It isn`t fun to play God! > Ego is extremely clever. > Outsmart yourself then... throught ego`s experiences.. > > Patricia Yes, Patricia, one must be careful with one´s longings, because one may get what one is longing for. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2006 Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 4/14/2006 2:48:11 AM Pacific > Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:35:53 EDT > > epston@ > > lEgo as Devil > > > > In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM Pacific > Daylight Time, > > ADHHUB@ > > writes: > > > > > As you say, ego " takes possession " of those > experiences, > through > > > memory. So we need the capacity to see the > difference between > this > > > memory and the actual experience. The actual > experience cannot > be > > > cultivated. This realization is the end of > complacency. > > > One could think that anybody who has seen a > break through, > cannot > > > confuse this experience with some images anymore, > so that he > > > discovers, for ever, the difference between a > fact and an > image, > > > which makes it impossible to fool oneself at this > point. > > > But I think that you´re right, some people may > indeed have > seen > > > something real, maybe strongly blurred by the > ego, and then > start > > > cultivating it as an image. > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of complacency' > is integrity; > the > > > willingness to see the truth that ego would > position itself as > God, or at > > > least the > > > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our > concepts tell us > this isn't > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word > ego with the > word devil or > > evil and have the same conversation. Any peek into > religious > literature > > will > > show you endless variations of the same kind of > story-telling. > Just read > > the > > crap that Dattrr writes. > > The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive > these stories is > endless, > > and > > you are part of the same process of imagination and > spiritual > storytelling. > > but you are so trapped in it that you have made is > seem real. > Read the > > literature about how the Catholic wafter is turned > into the body > of Christ > > if you > > want to read storytelling by another group of > experts. Or who > the Holy > > Ghost is > > and how he/it operates and there is another > invented imaginary > story. Those > > people are stuck in their stories just as you are. > Rather > pathetic, really. > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme is > repeated > endlessly in all > > religious belief systems in symbol, parable, > metaphor, analogy, > simile, (Go > > figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're supposed > to notice that > what's being > > talked about is ego, but instead ego denies that ego > exists or > that anything > > at all can be done about it, and insists that it > should be left > alone for > > reasons that are never quite clear, and then calls > all the > symbolism that was > > intended to point to it, pathetic. > > > > What's fascinating to me is the irony of hiding from > truth and > then > > pretending to look for Truth. > > > > This is very clever, the best place to hide. > > > > > The gurus have no choice but to just say stop the > > nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly a fool > and the more > you look, the > > more ways you find to hide what you're looking for. > > > > Most, if not all guru´s are providing food for this > search, which is > again feeding their own ego. > > Len > > To get raid of ego takes a very strong ego. > Then why always complain about experiences, about > gurus, about seeking and finding, about imagination > dreams, intuition, and invented imaginary stories : > there is no need to throw it all overboard, as long as > those means aren`t confused w/ the end. > The only important attitude is pure longing and > whatever you long for will surely meet you, and take > over you if your longing is strong enough. > The path of experience, the school of life is very > alive and there is no better catalyst. > And if Ego wants to play God, play God. > It isn`t fun to play God! > Ego is extremely clever. > Outsmart yourself then... throught ego`s experiences.. > > Patricia Yes, Patricia, one must be careful with one´s longings, because one may get what one is longing for. Len I`ve been longing for you to agree w/ me just once. Now you can resume your former attitude. P ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2006 Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia > <gdtige@> > wrote: > > > > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002@> a écrit : > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/14/2006 2:48:11 AM Pacific > > Daylight Time, > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:35:53 EDT > > > epston@ > > > lEgo as Devil > > > > > > In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM Pacific > > Daylight Time, > > > ADHHUB@ > > > writes: > > > > > > > As you say, ego " takes possession " of those > > experiences, > > through > > > > memory. So we need the capacity to see the > > difference between > > this > > > > memory and the actual experience. The actual > > experience cannot > > be > > > > cultivated. This realization is the end of > > complacency. > > > > One could think that anybody who has seen a > > break through, > > cannot > > > > confuse this experience with some images > anymore, > > so that he > > > > discovers, for ever, the difference between a > > fact and an > > image, > > > > which makes it impossible to fool oneself at > this > > point. > > > > But I think that you´re right, some people may > > indeed have > > seen > > > > something real, maybe strongly blurred by the > > ego, and then > > start > > > > cultivating it as an image. > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of > complacency' > > is integrity; > > the > > > > willingness to see the truth that ego would > > position itself as > > God, or at > > > > least the > > > > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our > > concepts tell us > > this isn't > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word > > ego with the > > word devil or > > > evil and have the same conversation. Any peek > into > > religious > > literature > > > will > > > show you endless variations of the same kind of > > story-telling. > > Just read > > > the > > > crap that Dattrr writes. > > > The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive > > these stories is > > endless, > > > and > > > you are part of the same process of imagination > and > > spiritual > > storytelling. > > > but you are so trapped in it that you have made is > > > seem real. > > Read the > > > literature about how the Catholic wafter is > turned > > into the body > > of Christ > > > if you > > > want to read storytelling by another group of > > experts. Or who > > the Holy > > > Ghost is > > > and how he/it operates and there is another > > invented imaginary > > story. Those > > > people are stuck in their stories just as you > are. > > Rather > > pathetic, really. > > > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme is > > repeated > > endlessly in all > > > religious belief systems in symbol, parable, > > metaphor, analogy, > > simile, (Go > > > figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're > supposed > > to notice that > > what's being > > > talked about is ego, but instead ego denies that > ego > > exists or > > that anything > > > at all can be done about it, and insists that it > > should be left > > alone for > > > reasons that are never quite clear, and then > calls > > all the > > symbolism that was > > > intended to point to it, pathetic. > > > > > > What's fascinating to me is the irony of hiding > from > > truth and > > then > > > pretending to look for Truth. > > > > > > > > This is very clever, the best place to hide. > > > > > > > > > The gurus have no choice but to just say stop the > > > > nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly a > fool > > and the more > > you look, the > > > more ways you find to hide what you're looking > for. > > > > > > > > Most, if not all guru´s are providing food for this > > search, which is > > again feeding their own ego. > > > > Len > > > > To get raid of ego takes a very strong ego. > > Then why always complain about experiences, about > > gurus, about seeking and finding, about imagination > > dreams, intuition, and invented imaginary stories : > > there is no need to throw it all overboard, as long > as > > those means aren`t confused w/ the end. > > The only important attitude is pure longing and > > whatever you long for will surely meet you, and take > > over you if your longing is strong enough. > > The path of experience, the school of life is very > > alive and there is no better catalyst. > > And if Ego wants to play God, play God. > > It isn`t fun to play God! > > Ego is extremely clever. > > Outsmart yourself then... throught ego`s > experiences.. > > > > Patricia > > > > Yes, Patricia, one must be careful with one´s > longings, because one > may get what one is longing for. > > Len > > I`ve been longing for you to agree w/ me just once. > > Now you can resume your former attitude. > > > P Please explain what is a former attitude. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2006 Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia > <gdtige@> > wrote: > > > > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002@> a écrit : > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor > Patricia > > <gdtige@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002@> a écrit : > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/14/2006 2:48:11 AM Pacific > > > Daylight Time, > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:35:53 EDT > > > > epston@ > > > > lEgo as Devil > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM Pacific > > > Daylight Time, > > > > ADHHUB@ > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > As you say, ego " takes possession " of those > > > experiences, > > > through > > > > > memory. So we need the capacity to see the > > > difference between > > > this > > > > > memory and the actual experience. The actual > > > experience cannot > > > be > > > > > cultivated. This realization is the end of > > > complacency. > > > > > One could think that anybody who has seen a > > > break through, > > > cannot > > > > > confuse this experience with some images > > anymore, > > > so that he > > > > > discovers, for ever, the difference between a > > > fact and an > > > image, > > > > > which makes it impossible to fool oneself at > > this > > > point. > > > > > But I think that you´re right, some people > may > > > indeed have > > > seen > > > > > something real, maybe strongly blurred by > the > > > ego, and then > > > start > > > > > cultivating it as an image. > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of > > complacency' > > > is integrity; > > > the > > > > > willingness to see the truth that ego would > > > position itself as > > > God, or at > > > > > least the > > > > > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our > > > concepts tell us > > > this isn't > > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the > word > > > ego with the > > > word devil or > > > > evil and have the same conversation. Any peek > > into > > > religious > > > literature > > > > will > > > > show you endless variations of the same kind of > > > story-telling. > > > Just read > > > > the > > > > crap that Dattrr writes. > > > > The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive > > > these stories is > > > endless, > > > > and > > > > you are part of the same process of imagination > > and > > > spiritual > > > storytelling. > > > > but you are so trapped in it that you have made > is > > > > > seem real. > > > Read the > > > > literature about how the Catholic wafter is > > turned > > > into the body > > > of Christ > > > > if you > > > > want to read storytelling by another group of > > > experts. Or who > > > the Holy > > > > Ghost is > > > > and how he/it operates and there is another > > > invented imaginary > > > story. Those > > > > people are stuck in their stories just as you > > are. > > > Rather > > > pathetic, really. > > > > > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme is > > > repeated > > > endlessly in all > > > > religious belief systems in symbol, parable, > > > metaphor, analogy, > > > simile, (Go > > > > figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're > > supposed > > > to notice that > > > what's being > > > > talked about is ego, but instead ego denies that > > ego > > > exists or > > > that anything > > > > at all can be done about it, and insists that > it > > > should be left > > > alone for > > > > reasons that are never quite clear, and then > > calls > > > all the > > > symbolism that was > > > > intended to point to it, pathetic. > > > > > > > > What's fascinating to me is the irony of hiding > > from > > > truth and > > > then > > > > pretending to look for Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is very clever, the best place to hide. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The gurus have no choice but to just say stop > the > > > > > > nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly a > > fool > > > and the more > > > you look, the > > > > more ways you find to hide what you're looking > > for. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most, if not all guru´s are providing food for > this > > > search, which is > > > again feeding their own ego. > > > > > > Len > > > > > > To get raid of ego takes a very strong ego. > > > Then why always complain about experiences, about > > > gurus, about seeking and finding, about > imagination > > > dreams, intuition, and invented imaginary stories > : > > > there is no need to throw it all overboard, as > long > > as > > > those means aren`t confused w/ the end. > > > The only important attitude is pure longing and > > > whatever you long for will surely meet you, and > take > > > over you if your longing is strong enough. > > > The path of experience, the school of life is very > > > alive and there is no better catalyst. > > > And if Ego wants to play God, play God. > > > It isn`t fun to play God! > > > Ego is extremely clever. > > > Outsmart yourself then... throught ego`s > > experiences.. > > > > > > Patricia > > > > > > > > Yes, Patricia, one must be careful with one´s > > longings, because one > > may get what one is longing for. > > > > Len > > > > I`ve been longing for you to agree w/ me just once. > > > > Now you can resume your former attitude. > > > > > > P > > > Please explain what is a former attitude. > > Len > > I smell a tiresome rat. this is just what I mean. > P Yes, memories of former attitudes are like tiresome rats, aren´t they. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2006 Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 In a message dated 4/14/2006 9:33:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 01:01:48 +0200 (CEST) OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: Re: lEgo as Devil --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/14/2006 2:48:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:35:53 EDT > epston > lEgo as Devil > > In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > ADHHUB > writes: > > > As you say, ego " takes possession " of those experiences, through > > memory. So we need the capacity to see the difference between this > > memory and the actual experience. The actual experience cannot be > > cultivated. This realization is the end of complacency. > > One could think that anybody who has seen a break through, cannot > > confuse this experience with some images anymore, so that he > > discovers, for ever, the difference between a fact and an image, > > which makes it impossible to fool oneself at this point. > > But I think that you´re right, some people may indeed have seen > > something real, maybe strongly blurred by the ego, and then start > > cultivating it as an image. > > > > Len > > > > > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of complacency' is integrity; the > > willingness to see the truth that ego would position itself as God, or at > > least the > > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our concepts tell us this isn't > > possible. > > > > > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word ego with the word devil or > evil and have the same conversation. Any peek into religious literature > will > show you endless variations of the same kind of story-telling. Just read > the > crap that Dattrr writes. > The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive these stories is endless, > and > you are part of the same process of imagination and spiritual storytelling. > but you are so trapped in it that you have made is seem real. Read the > literature about how the Catholic wafter is turned into the body of Christ > if you > want to read storytelling by another group of experts. Or who the Holy > Ghost is > and how he/it operates and there is another invented imaginary story. Those > people are stuck in their stories just as you are. Rather pathetic, really. > > Larry Epston > > > > > Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme is repeated endlessly in all > religious belief systems in symbol, parable, metaphor, analogy, simile, (Go > figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're supposed to notice that what's being > talked about is ego, but instead ego denies that ego exists or that anything > at all can be done about it, and insists that it should be left alone for > reasons that are never quite clear, and then calls all the symbolism that was > intended to point to it, pathetic. > > What's fascinating to me is the irony of hiding from truth and then > pretending to look for Truth. This is very clever, the best place to hide. > The gurus have no choice but to just say stop the > nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly a fool and the more you look, the > more ways you find to hide what you're looking for. Most, if not all guru´s are providing food for this search, which is again feeding their own ego. Len To get raid of ego takes a very strong ego. Then why always complain about experiences, about gurus, about seeking and finding, about imagination dreams, intuition, and invented imaginary stories : there is no need to throw it all overboard, as long as those means aren`t confused w/ the end. The only important attitude is pure longing and whatever you long for will surely meet you, and take over you if your longing is strong enough. The path of experience, the school of life is very alive and there is no better catalyst. And if Ego wants to play God, play God. It isn`t fun to play God! Ego is extremely clever. Outsmart yourself then... throught ego`s experiences.. Patricia Perhaps one doesn't fall in love with Truth until the comfortable lies have been roused from their slumber and sent packing. Truth is loyal and monogamous, but demanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2006 Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 In a message dated 4/14/2006 9:33:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 20:00:35 EDT epston Re: lEgo as Devil Len: As you say, ego " takes possession " of those experiences, through >memory. So we need the capacity to see the difference between this >memory and the actual experience. The actual experience cannot be >cultivated. This realization is the end of complacency. >One could think that anybody who has seen a break through, cannot >confuse this experience with some images anymore, so that he >discovers, for ever, the difference between a fact and an image, >which makes it impossible to fool oneself at this point. >But I think that you´re right, some people may indeed have seen >something real, maybe strongly blurred by the ego, and then start >cultivating it as an image. > >Len > > > >Phil: Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of complacency' is integrity; the >willingness to see the truth that ego would position itself as God, or at >least the >seer of God, in spite of the fact that our concepts tell us this isn't >possible. > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the word ego with the word devil or evil and have the same conversation. Any peek into religious literature will show you endless variations of the same kind of story-telling. Just read the crap that Dattrr writes. The inventifvness of the human mind to contrive these stories is endless, and you are part of the same process of imagination and spiritual storytelling. but you are so trapped in it that you have made is seem real. Read the literature about how the Catholic wafter is turned into the body of Christ if you want to read storytelling by another group of experts. Or who the Holy Ghost is and how he/it operates and there is another invented imaginary story. Those people are stuck in their stories just as you are. Rather pathetic, really. Larry Epston Phil:Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme is repeated endlessly in all religious belief systems in symbol, parable, metaphor, analogy, simile, (Go figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're supposed to notice that what's being talked about is ego, but instead ego denies that ego exists or that anything at all can be done about it, and insists that it should be left alone for reasons that are never quite clear, and then calls all the symbolism that was intended to point to it, pathetic. What's fascinating to me is the irony of hiding from truth and then pretending to look for Truth. The gurus have no choice but to just say stop the nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly a fool and the more you look, the more ways you find to hide what you're looking for. There are only two kinds of seekers who have integrity; the one who gives up and stops seeking because he knows he's a fool, or the one who's willing to stop at nothing to end his foolishness. L.E: I'm enjoying reading your last post, but sorry, you missed my point. My point is, the your story about ego, and the religious-minded's talk about the Devil are both invented objects of imagination. There is no devil that operates in the world as believer think, and there is no ego that operates as you are describing it. I assert that the ego is a natural outgrowth of mind and is not a trickster or that the ego denies that the ego exists. After all, we are talking about its existence, and I affirm its existence, but not its behavior as you describe it. Funny how you avoid my point of view. Perhaps you are correct and are a victim of your own theory if it is correct. You are perhaps doing exactly what you are describing the ego does. I don't know what's inside you, but what you are describing is not inside me unless I am mistaken. Larry Epstonj I didn't miss your point, Larry. I simply don't agree with it, which was meant to be obvious. My point, which might have been missed, was that these stories are pointing to a very real thought process. Of course ego is natural, and I don't recall calling it a trickster. If I did, perhaps it was in a different context. The words " self deception " have been used repeatedly to indicate it is the self that is deceiving the self. As far as what may be occurring within you, if I am correct, you wouldn't know about the self deception unless you were willing to look, would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2006 Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002 a écrit : > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia > <gdtige@> > wrote: > > > > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002@> a écrit : > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor > Patricia > > <gdtige@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002@> a écrit : > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor > > Patricia > > > <gdtige@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lissbon2002 <lissbon2002@> a écrit : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/14/2006 2:48:11 AM > Pacific > > > > Daylight Time, > > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:35:53 EDT > > > > > epston@ > > > > > lEgo as Devil > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:13:42 PM > Pacific > > > > Daylight Time, > > > > > ADHHUB@ > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > As you say, ego " takes possession " of > those > > > > experiences, > > > > through > > > > > > memory. So we need the capacity to see the > > > > difference between > > > > this > > > > > > memory and the actual experience. The > actual > > > > experience cannot > > > > be > > > > > > cultivated. This realization is the end of > > > > complacency. > > > > > > One could think that anybody who has seen a > > > > > break through, > > > > cannot > > > > > > confuse this experience with some images > > > anymore, > > > > so that he > > > > > > discovers, for ever, the difference between > a > > > > fact and an > > > > image, > > > > > > which makes it impossible to fool oneself > at > > > this > > > > point. > > > > > > But I think that you´re right, some people > > may > > > > indeed have > > > > seen > > > > > > something real, maybe strongly blurred by > > the > > > > ego, and then > > > > start > > > > > > cultivating it as an image. > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, in my terminology, the 'end of > > > complacency' > > > > is integrity; > > > > the > > > > > > willingness to see the truth that ego would > > > > position itself as > > > > God, or at > > > > > > least the > > > > > > seer of God, in spite of the fact that our > > > > concepts tell us > > > > this isn't > > > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > L.E: You guys could just as well replace the > > word > > > > ego with the > > > > word devil or > > > > > evil and have the same conversation. Any peek > > > into > > > > religious > > > > literature > > > > > will > > > > > show you endless variations of the same kind > of > > > > story-telling. > > > > Just read > > > > > the > > > > > crap that Dattrr writes. > > > > > The inventifvness of the human mind to > contrive > > > > these stories is > > > > endless, > > > > > and > > > > > you are part of the same process of > imagination > > > and > > > > spiritual > > > > storytelling. > > > > > but you are so trapped in it that you have > made > > is > > > > > > > seem real. > > > > Read the > > > > > literature about how the Catholic wafter is > > > turned > > > > into the body > > > > of Christ > > > > > if you > > > > > want to read storytelling by another group of > > > > experts. Or who > > > > the Holy > > > > > Ghost is > > > > > and how he/it operates and there is another > > > > invented imaginary > > > > story. Those > > > > > people are stuck in their stories just as you > > > are. > > > > Rather > > > > pathetic, really. > > > > > > > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the devil symbolizes mind/ego. The theme > is > > > > repeated > > > > endlessly in all > > > > > religious belief systems in symbol, parable, > > > > metaphor, analogy, > > > > simile, (Go > > > > > figure) When we grow up spiritually, we're > > > supposed > > > > to notice that > > > > what's being > > > > > talked about is ego, but instead ego denies > that > > > ego > > > > exists or > > > > that anything > > > > > at all can be done about it, and insists that > > it > > > > should be left > > > > alone for > > > > > reasons that are never quite clear, and then > > > calls > > > > all the > > > > symbolism that was > > > > > intended to point to it, pathetic. > > > > > > > > > > What's fascinating to me is the irony of > hiding > > > from > > > > truth and > > > > then > > > > > pretending to look for Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is very clever, the best place to hide. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The gurus have no choice but to just say stop > > the > > > > > > > > nonsense; stop looking because you're clearly > a > > > fool > > > > and the more > > > > you look, the > > > > > more ways you find to hide what you're looking > > > for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most, if not all guru´s are providing food for > > this > > > > search, which is > > > > again feeding their own ego. > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > To get raid of ego takes a very strong ego. > > > > Then why always complain about experiences, > about > > > > gurus, about seeking and finding, about > > imagination > > > > dreams, intuition, and invented imaginary > stories > > : > > > > there is no need to throw it all overboard, as > > long > > > as > > > > those means aren`t confused w/ the end. > > > > The only important attitude is pure longing and > > > > whatever you long for will surely meet you, and > > take > > > > over you if your longing is strong enough. > > > > The path of experience, the school of life is > very > > > > alive and there is no better catalyst. > > > > And if Ego wants to play God, play God. > > > > It isn`t fun to play God! > > > > Ego is extremely clever. > > > > Outsmart yourself then... throught ego`s > > > experiences.. > > > > > > > > Patricia > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Patricia, one must be careful with one´s > > > longings, because one > > > may get what one is longing for. > > > > > > Len > > > > > > I`ve been longing for you to agree w/ me just > once. > > > > > > Now you can resume your former attitude. > > > > > > > > > P > > > > > > Please explain what is a former attitude. > > > > Len > > > > I smell a tiresome rat. this is just what I mean. > > P > > > > Yes, memories of former attitudes are like tiresome > rats, aren´t > they. > > Len > > We agree again, Len. Well, perhaps it only seems so. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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