Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/18/2006 6:14:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:41:40 -0000 > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 > Judgement and Open Dialog (((Re: Acceptance ./L > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 4/17/2006 11:02:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:19:06 -0000 > > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > > Judgement and Open Dialog (((Re: Acceptance ./L > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/16/2006 7:09:10 PM Pacific Daylight > Time, > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > Mon, 17 Apr 2006 01:19:59 -0000 > > > > " billrishel " <illusyn@> > > > > Judgement and Open Dialog (((Re: Acceptance ./Len > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > <lissbon2002@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " > <illusyn@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > L: What does " don't you think " mean? ... At this > > > > > > point, communication ends, I think. > > > > > > ~~~ > > > > > > L. has a point. > > > > > > > > > > > > The question is not a open question (a true inquiry) > > > > > > but a rhetorical question, i.e. a statement in > > > > > > disguise. And like rhetorical questions in general, > > > > > > there is a summary curtness about it. It does not > > > > > > openly engage the other party, but rather cuts off, > > > > > > brings to an end, and with a tone of dismissal, > > > > > > effectively expressing judgement of the other. > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said, it is *very difficult* to cultivate > > > > > > open, nonjudgemental dialog. Apparently the difficulty > > > > > > lies in the prevalence of judgemental thinking in the > > > > > > first place. If there are labels of the other being > > > > > > formed in the mind (and with each label all the > > > > > > corresponding baggage) then those attitudes will > > > > > > sooner or later evidence themselves in the interchange. > > > > > > > > > > > > So if judgemental language is showing up in a dialog > > > > > > the root of discord is always going to be deeper than > > > > > > the words appearing on the surface. > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is discord arising from judgement, to place > > > > > > the blame on the other party is always astray from the > > > > > > real root. For to place blame is in itself to make > > > > > > judgement, so in the very impulse to so place blame is > > > > > > evidence to oneself that the spirit of discord already > > > > > > lies within oneself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And placing blame is what you´re doing, now. > > > > > I´wasn´t asking you a question, but explaining why I don´t > see > > a > > > > > possibility to communicate with you as long as you don´t > > question > > > > > your image system. So, unless you have something relevant > to > > say, > > > > > which shows some interest in challenging your beliefs, > there > > will be > > > > > no communication betwen us. It´s as simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I wasn't placing blame. What I said is true and > > > > stands on its own. I wasn't applying what I said to > > > > any particular person, including " Len " . > > > > > > > > And there are those " you " statements again. > > > > > > > > Not interest in what you are selling, sir! > > > > > > > > It is very simple, and I do hope you get the message > > > > this time. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How disingenuous to judge someone's words and then deny > > > responsibility by > > > > claiming it to be a general comment. Bobs angry rants are > > admirable in > > > > comparison. > > > > > > > > > > Well, I had no idea who said, " Don't you think? " > > > So my comment was indeed general. > > > Also, if you look carefully at what I said, it > > > cuts both ways. It is saying that in the end > > > the responsibility comes back to oneself. So > > > *even if* someone makes a comment that > > > seems " judgemental " , then as I said: " the very > > > impulse to so place blame is evidence to oneself > > > that the spirit of discord already lies within > > > oneself. " > > > > > > Perhaps you can see from this that I was not > > > picking on any particular person at all, and > > > that my comments were indeed of general intent. > > > > > > And do you see the irony of *your* remark? > > > > > > What is the root of discord? > > > *Is* there a lot of name-calling, blame placing > > > on this list? > > > *Is there* significant discord on this list? > > > > > > What I am trying to say is that the moment > > > someone is categorized as good/bad, stupid/ > > > not-stupid etc. the seed of discord is already > > > sown. > > > > > > Focusing on others as a problem goes nowhere, > > > in my view. > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > The interesting thing is that nobody was judging. So the > > judgement is in your head (if your head is yours, of course, I'm > not > > sure?). > > 6 billions of people live in a dream world, like you do, it's a > fact. > > There is no point in judging it, people do exactly what they want > to > > do and it's not my ambition to try to do anything about it. I'm > just > > stating this obvious fact. > > > > Len > > > > > > > > Folks believe that they can hide their judgment by saying they're > just > > stating the facts, while what's actually happening is that they're > stating their > > perception through the filter of judgment. (Not referring to the > fact that > > there at 6 billion people perceiving, Len. Yes, > that's 'objectively' true in that > > context.) > > > > What seems like a fact of one's unacceptable behavior isn't a fact > at all, > > and others may perceive it quite differently. This difference in > perception is > > to be expected. One could even suggest that all perspectives are > unique by > > definition, since the collective 'we' are the experiential aspect > of God, and > > experience doesn't need to be repeated. > > > > In any event, the problem is not that no two individuals can ever > agree, the > > 'problem' is that it can rarely be accepted that this disagreement > is okay. > > Larry is free to offer his perception that Len is a narcissist, > and I'm free > > to offer my perspective that the reason he's becoming obsessed > with this idea > > is that it's his own projection of his own narcissism. No value > judgments > > need to be made in either case. > > > > All explorations are our own explorations since they come out of > our unique > > perception. If this is accepted, understanding can occur. If it's > not, then > > nothing but struggle occurs, and the struggle is only with > ourselves. There's a > > certain amount of humor in this irony, but it's usually best to > keep the > > humor to ourselves, since this too will be judged. > > > > This is how it appears to me: > When there is judgment there is projection, the quality which is > judged and denied in oneself is projected outside on somebody else. > When there is no judgment, there is no need for projection and the > observed quality can be seen wherever it appears: in oneself or > outside. There is a difference between stating an obvious fact and > condemning a projected quality. Good communication becomes possible > when there is observation of facts without judgment. > This doesn´t happen very often, because judging and projecting is a > strong human conditioning. But even with the obvious projections, > like Larry accusing and condemning aggresivity in others, it makes > sense to observe ones reaction to it, and to see whether there is > some defensiveness in it, if it is here, it can be observed and > understood. If I feel the need to defend myself psychologically, it > means that there is still some judgmentality about it, otherwise I > wouldn´t bother to react defensively. > Finally it comes down to self-observation, and this is always > possible, no matter whether what somebody else is saying is based on > observation or whether it is simply a judgmental projection of > himself. > > Len > > > > Yup. I'll even go farther than that. Since we are projections of > consciousness itself, everything that is experienced is a creation of that limited > individuated focus of consciousness. The perception of unwholeness results in > desire, and this desire always creates a focus on our own boundaries of > awareness. IOW, we're always creating experiences as an exploration of what we don't > know. This is how the process of evolution spontaneously occurs. > > If this is recognized, this evolution can take place with a minimum of > suffering. If it's denied, then suffering is the primary means by which this > evolution must occur. It will, however, occur, regardless of what ego wants or > doesn't want. This makes sense to me. Learning always takes place, the more resistance, the more suffering. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 In a message dated 4/18/2006 6:15:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:41:01 -0000 " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Judgement and Open Dialog (((Re: Acceptance ./L > Yup. I'll even go farther than that. Since we are projections of > consciousness itself, everything that is experienced is a creation of that limited > individuated focus of consciousness. The perception of unwholeness results in > desire, and this desire always creates a focus on our own boundaries of > awareness. IOW, we're always creating experiences as an exploration of what we don't > know. This is how the process of evolution spontaneously occurs. > > If this is recognized, this evolution can take place with a minimum of > suffering. If it's denied, then suffering is the primary means by which this > evolution must occur. It will, however, occur, regardless of what ego wants or > doesn't want. This makes sense to me. Learning always takes place, the more resistance, the more suffering. Len Simply put and accurate from my perception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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