Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 In a message dated 4/29/2006 8:52:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 08:00:51 EDT epston Re: Re: Notes on Consciousness In a message dated 4/29/2006 4:30:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bigwaaba writes: > Hi Bill, > > when light meets water > something happens, a new vibration is added > call it trouble? L.E: Call it the beginning of organic life. Light is energy, animate vibration. Water is atomic energy taking on a molecular form of material intelligence. Combined with electrical energy from lightening and the physical elements of minerals, living things emerge. Must have been. Leaving your god myth out of it, where else could it have come from? Remember that matter is not just dead stuff, it is already organized community, relationships of the atomic invisible world. Matter is already life, full of the animating principle. There is no break between what is matter, metals, minerals, and what is life. It is a continuous flow into form. Where does the water come from and what is it? The water is a condensate from other gases that come from heat, pressure and light combined with electricity. That phase is gone as the earth changes and the life on earth changes in accord. Where it is all going, we can't say. We can only live out our days and nights as we are within the window of our expressions, just as you and I are doing. Our life is the whole universe in action, in expression, just the same with all the planets and the sun as well, living and changing. Larry Epston What if the universe is recreated in each moment of now, and nothing ever caused anything to happen? P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Pete, W: When you and I are communicating, do we communicate on a cellular level or do we use the interenet, language and computer ? P: All three, yes, plus our cells. You couldn't write a word without your brain cells. W: Ok, why can't you accept we are social beings and we communicate on that social level and why do you have to escape into cells and neurons ? P: I do accept all that. I'm not escaping, I'm trying to explain consciousness did not start with humans, fish are conscious too. There was a gold fish in the news which was trained to play soccer. W: Are you conscious of your cells communicating with each other ? No, you are not. And now we speak about CONSCIOUSNESS, the topic is consciousness, to remind you. The topic is NOT communication. P: Well you wrote below: " consciousness factually is just a function needed for communication. " So you brought up the topic of communication. > W: Please take a break and ponder about that consciousness is just a function needed for comunication. If you give up your resistance you will find hundreds of examples which will prove that it is true. Werner P: I have pondered it, and have reached the conclusion that it's needed to better protect life, but if it's very important to you that consciousness reason for being is only communication, I respect that. Just tell me, if you can, how would your life change if you'd believe that wasn't true at all, and that consciousness is only needed for sex? I think we both agree that regardless the reason it came about, it's just a passing fever of the senses. Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote: > > Pete, > > W: Taking the sharpest razor blade to cut through consciousness til you > reached the neurons won't help to escape the realization that > consciousness factually is just a function needed for communication. > > P: Ja, lieb kamerad, I know that you are fond of that > theory, but think that communication also happens > at the cellular level, and below, at the atomic level. > > it's only when pain appears that consciousness is > really needed because without it, pains means not > a thing. So yes, groups of self supporting organisms > need consciousness to act as a group, but that is > and added bonus, rather than a reason to be. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote: > > Pete, > > W: When you and I are communicating, do we communicate on a cellular > level or do we use the interenet, language and computer ? > > P: All three, yes, plus our cells. You couldn't write a word > without your brain cells. > > W: Ok, why can't you accept we are social beings and we communicate on > that social level and why do you have to escape into cells and > neurons ? > > P: I do accept all that. I'm not escaping, I'm trying > to explain consciousness did not start with humans, > fish are conscious too. There was a gold fish in the news > which was trained to play soccer. > > W: Are you conscious of your cells communicating with each > other ? No, you are not. And now we speak about CONSCIOUSNESS, the > topic is consciousness, to remind you. The topic is NOT communication. > > P: Well you wrote below: " consciousness factually is just a function > needed for communication. " So you brought up the topic of > communication. > > > > > W: Please take a break and ponder about that consciousness is just a > function needed for comunication. If you give up your resistance you > will find hundreds of examples which will prove that it is true. > > Werner > > P: I have pondered it, and have reached the conclusion > that it's needed to better protect life, but if it's very > important to you that consciousness reason for being is only > communication, I respect that. Just tell me, if you can, > how would your life change if you'd believe that wasn't > true at all, and that consciousness is only needed for > sex? I think we both agree that regardless the reason it > came about, it's just a passing fever of the senses. > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > Pete, > > > > W: Taking the sharpest razor blade to cut through consciousness til > you > > reached the neurons won't help to escape the realization that > > consciousness factually is just a function needed for communication. > > > > P: Ja, lieb kamerad, I know that you are fond of that > > theory, but think that communication also happens > > at the cellular level, and below, at the atomic level. > > > > it's only when pain appears that consciousness is > > really needed because without it, pains means not > > a thing. So yes, groups of self supporting organisms > > need consciousness to act as a group, but that is > > and added bonus, rather than a reason to be. > > The following is from a review of The Feeling of What Happens, by Antonio Damasio, a book investigating the nature of consciousness in terms of human brain physiology based on the authors experimental research and patient accounts: Deviating from the traditional views of Daniel Dennett and others, Damasio offers a much more inclusive definition of consciousness that goes beyond the view that only includes normal humans. Damasio breaks down the concept of consciousness - the relationship of an organism to the objects in its environment - into what he calls " core consciousness " and " extended consciousness. " Core consciousness consists of the level of the individual's alertness in interactions of the here and now. Damasio explains that this type of awareness about the environment is present in infants and nearly all nonhuman primates. By examining consciousness in this new light, Damasio has made the radical claim that animals are conscious beings, a view that has traditionally received little support. By contrast, extended consciousness, the type of awareness we normally attribute to humans, requires both memory of the past and anticipation of the future. Thus, according to Damasio, extended consciousness is the result of continued core consciousness and cannot exist without it. Damasio's studies have shown that whereas core consciousness requires very little of the brain, full-blown extended consciousness employs a majority of the brain. Damasio's argument that consciousness can be separated into simple and complex forms may seem arbitrary at first. However, his case presentations support the merits of the new foundation that he has developed to evaluate consciousness. He offers three types of examples from various patients that help the reader to understand when consciousness is present and when it is not. On one extreme, Damasio presents people in deep sleep (without REM) or in comas as examples of individuals with neither consciousness nor wakefulness. Next, and more interestingly, Damasio offers the case of epileptic automatism seizures as an occurrence in which the patient is awake but is without even core consciousness. Although the patient is clearly awake during the seizure, the individual's actions seem completely random and unrelated to any aspect of the surrounding environment. Damasio explains that this behavior does not constitute consciousness. Last, Damasio describes the case of David, a patient with one of the most severe cases of global amnesia ever recorded. The damage to David's brain is so extreme that he is not able to remember any new fact for more than a few seconds. From David's point of view, every interaction with the environment takes place in a completely unfamiliar setting with unknown people. However, David is still able to interact with the here and now. According to Damasio, David has core consciousness but not extended consciousness. Although it is clear that David does not possess the type of consciousness of normal individuals, it is also obvious that David should still be considered a conscious being and is quite different from a person experiencing an epileptic automatism. The example of global amnesia makes Damasio's distinction between core and extended consciousness much more clear-cut. Rather than simply providing an arbitrary judgement of consciousness as so many philosophers and neuroscientists have been prone to do, Damasio provides a set of tangible guidelines by which consciousness can be judged. This book dispels the notion of consciousness as an epiphenomenon, in my opinion. [i have read the book.] Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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