Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Ok Pete, Sensual data are processed parallel in the brain and when that is finished it is made conscious. Consciousness is the end of the chain. The question is if all is already done and finished why then in addition the need to make it conscious ? And I find only one answer: To communicate it. I don't insist on this interpretation, I simple can't find a better one. To protect my life consciousness is not needed because the protection straregies are already done in the brain before they get conscious. And because consciousness is a serial memorizing process the only answer I find is that consciousness is a steady readiness prepared to eventually get communicated. Your mistake, Pete, is that you don't see consciousness as the end of the chain. You think and act as if it is the beginning you start from. We are so used to see consciousness as a " Here and Now " as a source we start from. No, no, it is the end of the chain when all is already done. Werner Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote: > > Pete, > > W: When you and I are communicating, do we communicate on a cellular > level or do we use the interenet, language and computer ? > > P: All three, yes, plus our cells. You couldn't write a word > without your brain cells. > > W: Ok, why can't you accept we are social beings and we communicate on > that social level and why do you have to escape into cells and > neurons ? > > P: I do accept all that. I'm not escaping, I'm trying > to explain consciousness did not start with humans, > fish are conscious too. There was a gold fish in the news > which was trained to play soccer. > > W: Are you conscious of your cells communicating with each > other ? No, you are not. And now we speak about CONSCIOUSNESS, the > topic is consciousness, to remind you. The topic is NOT communication. > > P: Well you wrote below: " consciousness factually is just a function > needed for communication. " So you brought up the topic of > communication. > > > > > W: Please take a break and ponder about that consciousness is just a > function needed for comunication. If you give up your resistance you > will find hundreds of examples which will prove that it is true. > > Werner > > P: I have pondered it, and have reached the conclusion > that it's needed to better protect life, but if it's very > important to you that consciousness reason for being is only > communication, I respect that. Just tell me, if you can, > how would your life change if you'd believe that wasn't > true at all, and that consciousness is only needed for > sex? I think we both agree that regardless the reason it > came about, it's just a passing fever of the senses. > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > Pete, > > > > W: Taking the sharpest razor blade to cut through consciousness til > you > > reached the neurons won't help to escape the realization that > > consciousness factually is just a function needed for communication. > > > > P: Ja, lieb kamerad, I know that you are fond of that > > theory, but think that communication also happens > > at the cellular level, and below, at the atomic level. > > > > it's only when pain appears that consciousness is > > really needed because without it, pains means not > > a thing. So yes, groups of self supporting organisms > > need consciousness to act as a group, but that is > > and added bonus, rather than a reason to be. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Ok Pete, W: Sensual data are processed parallel in the brain and when that is finished it is made conscious. Consciousness is the end of the chain. P: I have no problem with that. W: The question is if all is already done and finished why then in addition the need to make it conscious ? And I find only one answer: To communicate it. I don't insist on this interpretation, I simple can't find a better one. To protect my life consciousness is not needed because the protection straregies are already done in the brain before they get conscious. P: Let me illustrate with the example of conscious partial blindness. Those cases in which the connection between the cortex and the vision center has been damaged in one of the brain's hemispheres. In those cases if you show a ball on the blind side (let's say right side) the person is not conscious of seeing it, but if you throw the ball, to that side he will catch it. This happens because the motor center connection to the visual center hasn't been severed, and that center can perform an automatic act like catching a ball. But a person which has fallen asleep while smoking often dies in that fire because he needs to be conscious of the fire to make the decision to flee the room. Most life situations require complex strategies which can't be performed unless one is conscious. He could catch a ball without seeing it, but can't play soccer well unless he is conscious. W: And because consciousness is a serial memorizing process the only answer I find is that consciousness is a steady readiness prepared to eventually get communicated. P: I'm not arguing that is not needed in communication, I'm simply saying is needed for more basic stuff. W: Your mistake, Pete, is that you don't see consciousness as the end of the chain. You think and act as if it is the beginning you start from. We are so used to see consciousness as a " Here and Now " as a source we start from. No, no, it is the end of the chain when all is already done. P: There are things you need to be conscious to do, you can shit in your sleep, but can't wipe your ass until you're conscious, Werner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote: > > Ok Pete, > > W: Sensual data are processed parallel in the brain and when that is > finished it is made conscious. Consciousness is the end of the chain. > > P: I have no problem with that. > > > W: The question is if all is already done and finished why then in > addition the need to make it conscious ? > > And I find only one answer: To communicate it. > > I don't insist on this interpretation, I simple can't find a better > one. > > To protect my life consciousness is not needed because the protection > straregies are already done in the brain before they get conscious. > > P: Let me illustrate with the example of conscious > partial blindness. > Those cases in which the connection between the > cortex and the vision center has been damaged > in one of the brain's hemispheres. In those cases > if you show a ball on the blind side (let's say right > side) the person is not conscious of seeing it, but > if you throw the ball, to that side he will catch it. > This happens because the motor center connection to > the visual center hasn't been severed, and that center > can perform an automatic act like catching a ball. > > But a person which has fallen asleep while smoking often > dies in that fire because he needs to be conscious of > the fire to make the decision to flee the room. Most > life situations require complex strategies which > can't be performed unless one is conscious. He could > catch a ball without seeing it, but can't play soccer > well unless he is conscious. > > > > W: And because consciousness is a serial memorizing process the only > answer I find is that consciousness is a steady readiness prepared to > eventually get communicated. > > P: I'm not arguing that is not needed in communication, > I'm simply saying is needed for more basic stuff. > > > > W: Your mistake, Pete, is that you don't see consciousness as the end of > the chain. You think and act as if it is the beginning you start from. > > We are so used to see consciousness as a " Here and Now " as a source > we start from. No, no, it is the end of the chain when all is already > done. > > P: There are things you need to be conscious to do, > you can shit in your sleep, but can't wipe your > ass until you're conscious, Werner. > > Q: You behave like a person who thinks. M: Why not? But my thinking, like my digestion, is unconscious and purposeful. Q: If your thinking is unconscious, how do you know that it is right? M: There is no desire, nor fear to thwart it. What can make it wrong? Once I know myself and what I stand for, I do not need to check on myself all the time. When you know that your watch shows correct time, you do not hesitate each time you consult it. from " I am That " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Oh Pete, why so stubborn ? Just one step more: People smoking in bed don't die because they lose consciousness, they rather die because the complete organism is already that damaged that it even no longer is able to produce consciousness. And, have you never pissed or shit in your bed as a baby ? But later you got trained not to do that, right ? And this training no lobger will allow these " activities " when asleep. Consciouness is not able to prevent shitting in your bed, it only will show when you already did it Consciousness is the end of the chain but it creates the illusion that it is the place we start acting from and make our decicions. And that is wrong ! Our decicisions already are made BEFORE they get conscious. That is what Libet has found with his experiments. Werner Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote: > > Ok Pete, > > W: Sensual data are processed parallel in the brain and when that is > finished it is made conscious. Consciousness is the end of the chain. > > P: I have no problem with that. > > > W: The question is if all is already done and finished why then in > addition the need to make it conscious ? > > And I find only one answer: To communicate it. > > I don't insist on this interpretation, I simple can't find a better > one. > > To protect my life consciousness is not needed because the protection > straregies are already done in the brain before they get conscious. > > P: Let me illustrate with the example of conscious > partial blindness. > Those cases in which the connection between the > cortex and the vision center has been damaged > in one of the brain's hemispheres. In those cases > if you show a ball on the blind side (let's say right > side) the person is not conscious of seeing it, but > if you throw the ball, to that side he will catch it. > This happens because the motor center connection to > the visual center hasn't been severed, and that center > can perform an automatic act like catching a ball. > > But a person which has fallen asleep while smoking often > dies in that fire because he needs to be conscious of > the fire to make the decision to flee the room. Most > life situations require complex strategies which > can't be performed unless one is conscious. He could > catch a ball without seeing it, but can't play soccer > well unless he is conscious. > > > > W: And because consciousness is a serial memorizing process the only > answer I find is that consciousness is a steady readiness prepared to > eventually get communicated. > > P: I'm not arguing that is not needed in communication, > I'm simply saying is needed for more basic stuff. > > > > W: Your mistake, Pete, is that you don't see consciousness as the end of > the chain. You think and act as if it is the beginning you start from. > > We are so used to see consciousness as a " Here and Now " as a source > we start from. No, no, it is the end of the chain when all is already > done. > > P: There are things you need to be conscious to do, > you can shit in your sleep, but can't wipe your > ass until you're conscious, Werner. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 throw yourself out in front of your thoughts, and 'you' will never be anywhere except in your own experience of 'you'. So, this is it, eh? Ana Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Oh Pete, why so stubborn ? > > Just one step more: > > People smoking in bed don't die because they lose consciousness, they > rather die because the complete organism is already that damaged that > it even no longer is able to produce consciousness. > > And, have you never pissed or shit in your bed as a baby ? But later > you got trained not to do that, right ? And this training no lobger > will allow these " activities " when asleep. Consciouness is not able > to prevent shitting in your bed, it only will show when you already > did it > > Consciousness is the end of the chain but it creates the illusion > that it is the place we start acting from and make our decicions. > > And that is wrong ! Our decicisions already are made BEFORE they get > conscious. That is what Libet has found with his experiments. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > Ok Pete, > > > > W: Sensual data are processed parallel in the brain and when that is > > finished it is made conscious. Consciousness is the end of the > chain. > > > > P: I have no problem with that. > > > > > > W: The question is if all is already done and finished why then in > > addition the need to make it conscious ? > > > > And I find only one answer: To communicate it. > > > > I don't insist on this interpretation, I simple can't find a better > > one. > > > > To protect my life consciousness is not needed because the > protection > > straregies are already done in the brain before they get conscious. > > > > P: Let me illustrate with the example of conscious > > partial blindness. > > Those cases in which the connection between the > > cortex and the vision center has been damaged > > in one of the brain's hemispheres. In those cases > > if you show a ball on the blind side (let's say right > > side) the person is not conscious of seeing it, but > > if you throw the ball, to that side he will catch it. > > This happens because the motor center connection to > > the visual center hasn't been severed, and that center > > can perform an automatic act like catching a ball. > > > > But a person which has fallen asleep while smoking often > > dies in that fire because he needs to be conscious of > > the fire to make the decision to flee the room. Most > > life situations require complex strategies which > > can't be performed unless one is conscious. He could > > catch a ball without seeing it, but can't play soccer > > well unless he is conscious. > > > > > > > > W: And because consciousness is a serial memorizing process the only > > answer I find is that consciousness is a steady readiness prepared > to > > eventually get communicated. > > > > P: I'm not arguing that is not needed in communication, > > I'm simply saying is needed for more basic stuff. > > > > > > > > W: Your mistake, Pete, is that you don't see consciousness as the > end of > > the chain. You think and act as if it is the beginning you start > from. > > > > We are so used to see consciousness as a " Here and Now " as a source > > we start from. No, no, it is the end of the chain when all is > already > > done. > > > > P: There are things you need to be conscious to do, > > you can shit in your sleep, but can't wipe your > > ass until you're conscious, Werner. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > > SNIP > > P: There are things you need to be conscious to do, > > you can shit in your sleep, but can't wipe your > > ass until you're conscious, Werner. Well I dunno. Seems back in the 1950's, I saw on the Wayne County Midway of the Michigan State Fair, a Freak Show that featured some really strange lookin' dudes and dudettes. There was one there I recollect, that was sorta half-man,half-turtle type of thing and when it did let go of a number two, quite unconciously, this mysterious being would begin wiping the tail end of the back shell he was encumbered with.Even though the monster had the head of a man, you could tell just by lookin', that there weren't no brains in that head. So just as my little input into the depths of this philosophical discussion, I would like to add my presentation as evidence of the Unconscious Wiper as a living fact. ........bob(searcher of inner wizdem) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 I guess so. Nothing to do but get run over by our own thoughts. Kind of a mental hit-n-run. Isn't that how most of humanity lives? What sorcery is this That clips the wings of angels And makes fools of Gods? Phil In a message dated 4/30/2006 12:51:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Message: 14 Sun, 30 Apr 2006 14:46:53 -0000 " anabebe57 " <anabebe57 Re: Notes on Consciousness throw yourself out in front of your thoughts, and 'you' will never be anywhere except in your own experience of 'you'. So, this is it, eh? Ana Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Oh Pete, why so stubborn ? > > Just one step more: > > People smoking in bed don't die because they lose consciousness, they > rather die because the complete organism is already that damaged that > it even no longer is able to produce consciousness. > > And, have you never pissed or shit in your bed as a baby ? But later > you got trained not to do that, right ? And this training no lobger > will allow these " activities " when asleep. Consciouness is not able > to prevent shitting in your bed, it only will show when you already > did it > > Consciousness is the end of the chain but it creates the illusion > that it is the place we start acting from and make our decicions. > > And that is wrong ! Our decicisions already are made BEFORE they get > conscious. That is what Libet has found with his experiments. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5@> wrote: > > > > Ok Pete, > > > > W: Sensual data are processed parallel in the brain and when that is > > finished it is made conscious. Consciousness is the end of the > chain. > > > > P: I have no problem with that. > > > > > > W: The question is if all is already done and finished why then in > > addition the need to make it conscious ? > > > > And I find only one answer: To communicate it. > > > > I don't insist on this interpretation, I simple can't find a better > > one. > > > > To protect my life consciousness is not needed because the > protection > > straregies are already done in the brain before they get conscious. > > > > P: Let me illustrate with the example of conscious > > partial blindness. > > Those cases in which the connection between the > > cortex and the vision center has been damaged > > in one of the brain's hemispheres. In those cases > > if you show a ball on the blind side (let's say right > > side) the person is not conscious of seeing it, but > > if you throw the ball, to that side he will catch it. > > This happens because the motor center connection to > > the visual center hasn't been severed, and that center > > can perform an automatic act like catching a ball. > > > > But a person which has fallen asleep while smoking often > > dies in that fire because he needs to be conscious of > > the fire to make the decision to flee the room. Most > > life situations require complex strategies which > > can't be performed unless one is conscious. He could > > catch a ball without seeing it, but can't play soccer > > well unless he is conscious. > > > > > > > > W: And because consciousness is a serial memorizing process the only > > answer I find is that consciousness is a steady readiness prepared > to > > eventually get communicated. > > > > P: I'm not arguing that is not needed in communication, > > I'm simply saying is needed for more basic stuff. > > > > > > > > W: Your mistake, Pete, is that you don't see consciousness as the > end of > > the chain. You think and act as if it is the beginning you start > from. > > > > We are so used to see consciousness as a " Here and Now " as a source > > we start from. No, no, it is the end of the chain when all is > already > > done. > > > > P: There are things you need to be conscious to do, > > you can shit in your sleep, but can't wipe your > > ass until you're conscious, Werner. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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