Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Message 6 " billrishel " illusyn Tue May 2, 2006 7:29pm(PDT) Re: This feeling . . ./ " who " makes a decision? Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > as if my body has 'woke up' and... *I* > > > has died! > > > > > > or, as if ONLY my *body* woke up from > > > the last night Sleep but the automatic > > > 'mind' kept sleeping... > > > > > > and, now the World feels ever... 'not there'... > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > thoughts... > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > thinking! > > Arvind, > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be there to see the > decision if this could happen. > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision happening, it does > NOT make it. > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear about this. **************************************************************** > well said! > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > must start with intent. > no intent, no decision > so where does the intent begin? > is there an intent to form the intent? > clearly that makes no sense > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > Bill **************************************************** Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such thing as " free choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete freedom from all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, prejudice, bias, desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and therefore not free. Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL possibile options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which by definition means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, unexamined, unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to conscious awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that would persuade choosing in one particular direction or another. And assuming this were possible, the question one might ask at that point is, " Would choice even be necessary at all? " It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; of not knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go right? Should I meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is the driving, distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not *free*. I might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. To look at it from another direction, I need to be completely clear if I want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or another. And if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still would be " no choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and clarity doesn't waiver between this or that. There is no *me* saying eeny meeny miney mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to apparent " free will " . Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 <snip> > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > > thoughts... > > > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > > thinking! > > > > Arvind, > > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be there to see the > > decision if this could happen. > > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision happening, it does > > NOT make it. > > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear about this. > **************************************************************** > > well said! > > > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > > must start with intent. > > > no intent, no decision > > > so where does the intent begin? > > > is there an intent to form the intent? > > clearly that makes no sense > > > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > > > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > > > Bill > **************************************************** > > Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such thing as " free > choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete freedom from > all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, prejudice, bias, > desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and therefore not free. > Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL possibile > options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which by definition > means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, unexamined, > unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to conscious > awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that would persuade > choosing in one particular direction or another. And assuming this were > possible, the question one might ask at that point is, " Would choice > even be necessary at all? " > > It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; of not > knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go right? Should I > meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is the driving, > distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not *free*. I > might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. > To look at it from another direction, I need to be completely clear if I > want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or another. And > if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still would be " no > choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and clarity doesn't > waiver between this or that. When there is the clarity of which you speak it is not clarity of the mind, really It is not the clarity of having sorted it all out and haveing come out clear about it all The clarity of which you speak is as *before thought* A knowing, as it were, that comes from such depth that the surface baubles do not distract And before such clarity are not an array of options So for such clarity " free choice " has no meaning How can " free choice " have meaning for that which is in essence Freedom itself? There is no *me* saying eeny meeny miney > mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to apparent " free will " . > > Michael > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 As the neuroscientist Libet already proved in the 70th decisions are already made before they get conscious. Therefore consciousness is not the place from whre you start do make decisions or your choices. Intent, wishes, resistance, likes amd dislikes, etc - all happen and get conscious when they already are done. And who is the partaker, the doer, the willful originator ? He is a Fata Morgana ... Werner Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson wrote: > > Message 6 > " billrishel " illusyn > Tue May 2, 2006 7:29pm(PDT) > Re: This feeling . . ./ " who " makes a decision? > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > > wrote: > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > as if my body has 'woke up' and... *I* > > > > has died! > > > > > > > > or, as if ONLY my *body* woke up from > > > > the last night Sleep but the automatic > > > > 'mind' kept sleeping... > > > > > > > > and, now the World feels ever... 'not there'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > > thoughts... > > > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > > thinking! > > > > Arvind, > > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be there to see the > > decision if this could happen. > > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision happening, it does > > NOT make it. > > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear about this. > **************************************************************** > > well said! > > > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > > must start with intent. > > > no intent, no decision > > > so where does the intent begin? > > > is there an intent to form the intent? > > clearly that makes no sense > > > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > > > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > > > Bill > **************************************************** > > Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such thing as " free > choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete freedom from > all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, prejudice, bias, > desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and therefore not free. > Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL possibile > options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which by definition > means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, unexamined, > unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to conscious > awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that would persuade > choosing in one particular direction or another. And assuming this were > possible, the question one might ask at that point is, " Would choice > even be necessary at all? " > > It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; of not > knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go right? Should I > meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is the driving, > distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not *free*. I > might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. > > To look at it from another direction, I need to be completely clear if I > want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or another. And > if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still would be " no > choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and clarity doesn't > waiver between this or that. There is no *me* saying eeny meeny miney > mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to apparent " free will " . > > Michael > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > As the neuroscientist Libet already proved in the 70th decisions are > already made before they get conscious. > > Therefore consciousness is not the place from whre you start do make > decisions or your choices. > > Intent, wishes, resistance, likes amd dislikes, etc - all happen and > get conscious when they already are done. And who is the partaker, > the doer, the willful originator ? He is a Fata Morgana ... > > Werner and so then, what is *not* fata morgana? > Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson@> wrote: > > > > Message 6 > > " billrishel " illusyn@ > > Tue May 2, 2006 7:29pm(PDT) > > Re: This feeling . . ./ " who " makes a decision? > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as if my body has 'woke up' and... *I* > > > > > has died! > > > > > > > > > > or, as if ONLY my *body* woke up from > > > > > the last night Sleep but the automatic > > > > > 'mind' kept sleeping... > > > > > > > > > > and, now the World feels ever... 'not there'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > > > thoughts... > > > > > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > > > thinking! > > > > > > Arvind, > > > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > > > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be there to see > the > > > decision if this could happen. > > > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision happening, it does > > > NOT make it. > > > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear about this. > > **************************************************************** > > > well said! > > > > > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > > > must start with intent. > > > > > no intent, no decision > > > > > so where does the intent begin? > > > > > is there an intent to form the intent? > > > clearly that makes no sense > > > > > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > > > > > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > > > > > Bill > > **************************************************** > > > > Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such thing > as " free > > choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete freedom > from > > all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, prejudice, bias, > > desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and therefore not > free. > > Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL possibile > > options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which by > definition > > means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, unexamined, > > unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to > conscious > > awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that would > persuade > > choosing in one particular direction or another. And assuming this > were > > possible, the question one might ask at that point is, " Would > choice > > even be necessary at all? " > > > > It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; of not > > knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go right? > Should I > > meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is the > driving, > > distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not *free*. > I > > might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. > > > > To look at it from another direction, I need to be completely clear > if I > > want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or another. > And > > if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still would > be " no > > choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and clarity > doesn't > > waiver between this or that. There is no *me* saying eeny meeny > miney > > mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to apparent " free > will " . > > > > Michael > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Take a hammer and hit your thumb. The you know what is not a Fata Morgana. Werner Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > As the neuroscientist Libet already proved in the 70th decisions are > > already made before they get conscious. > > > > Therefore consciousness is not the place from whre you start do make > > decisions or your choices. > > > > Intent, wishes, resistance, likes amd dislikes, etc - all happen and > > get conscious when they already are done. And who is the partaker, > > the doer, the willful originator ? He is a Fata Morgana ... > > > > Werner > > and so then, what is *not* fata morgana? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson@> wrote: > > > > > > Message 6 > > > " billrishel " illusyn@ > > > Tue May 2, 2006 7:29pm(PDT) > > > Re: This feeling . . ./ " who " makes a decision? > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as if my body has 'woke up' and... *I* > > > > > > has died! > > > > > > > > > > > > or, as if ONLY my *body* woke up from > > > > > > the last night Sleep but the automatic > > > > > > 'mind' kept sleeping... > > > > > > > > > > > > and, now the World feels ever... 'not there'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > > > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > > > > thoughts... > > > > > > > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > > > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > > > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > > > > thinking! > > > > > > > > Arvind, > > > > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > > > > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be there to see > > the > > > > decision if this could happen. > > > > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision happening, it does > > > > NOT make it. > > > > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear about this. > > > **************************************************************** > > > > well said! > > > > > > > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > > > > must start with intent. > > > > > > > no intent, no decision > > > > > > > so where does the intent begin? > > > > > > > is there an intent to form the intent? > > > > clearly that makes no sense > > > > > > > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > > > > > > > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > > > > > > > Bill > > > **************************************************** > > > > > > Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such thing > > as " free > > > choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete freedom > > from > > > all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, prejudice, bias, > > > desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and therefore not > > free. > > > Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL possibile > > > options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which by > > definition > > > means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, unexamined, > > > unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to > > conscious > > > awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that would > > persuade > > > choosing in one particular direction or another. And assuming this > > were > > > possible, the question one might ask at that point is, " Would > > choice > > > even be necessary at all? " > > > > > > It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; of not > > > knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go right? > > Should I > > > meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is the > > driving, > > > distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not *free*. > > I > > > might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. > > > > > > To look at it from another direction, I need to be completely clear > > if I > > > want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or another. > > And > > > if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still would > > be " no > > > choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and clarity > > doesn't > > > waiver between this or that. There is no *me* saying eeny meeny > > miney > > > mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to apparent " free > > will " . > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Take a hammer and hit your thumb. The you know what is not a Fata > Morgana. > > Werner what do you mean? the sensation of pain? or also the hammer, thumb, etc. so you count direct sensory experience as real, I gather. And nothing else. OK. But how real is even that? Have you ever had the experience of going into pain so completely that it is no longer pain? What is " directly sensed " cannot be taken at face value. What is sensed always *depends*... and what does that depend upon? programming in the brain? is the programming in the brain all fata morgana? if so then the sensation of pain depends on what is itself fata morgana. > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > As the neuroscientist Libet already proved in the 70th decisions > are > > > already made before they get conscious. > > > > > > Therefore consciousness is not the place from whre you start do > make > > > decisions or your choices. > > > > > > Intent, wishes, resistance, likes amd dislikes, etc - all happen > and > > > get conscious when they already are done. And who is the partaker, > > > the doer, the willful originator ? He is a Fata Morgana ... > > > > > > Werner > > > > and so then, what is *not* fata morgana? > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Message 6 > > > > " billrishel " illusyn@ > > > > Tue May 2, 2006 7:29pm(PDT) > > > > Re: This feeling . . ./ " who " makes a decision? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " > <adithya_comming@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as if my body has 'woke up' and... *I* > > > > > > > has died! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or, as if ONLY my *body* woke up from > > > > > > > the last night Sleep but the automatic > > > > > > > 'mind' kept sleeping... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and, now the World feels ever... 'not there'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > > > > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > > > > > thoughts... > > > > > > > > > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > > > > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > > > > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > > > > > thinking! > > > > > > > > > > Arvind, > > > > > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > > > > > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be there to > see > > > the > > > > > decision if this could happen. > > > > > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision happening, it > does > > > > > NOT make it. > > > > > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear about > this. > > > > **************************************************************** > > > > > well said! > > > > > > > > > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > > > > > must start with intent. > > > > > > > > > no intent, no decision > > > > > > > > > so where does the intent begin? > > > > > > > > > is there an intent to form the intent? > > > > > clearly that makes no sense > > > > > > > > > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > > > > > > > > > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > **************************************************** > > > > > > > > Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such thing > > > as " free > > > > choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete > freedom > > > from > > > > all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, prejudice, > bias, > > > > desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and therefore > not > > > free. > > > > Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL > possibile > > > > options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which by > > > definition > > > > means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, unexamined, > > > > unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to > > > conscious > > > > awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that would > > > persuade > > > > choosing in one particular direction or another. And assuming > this > > > were > > > > possible, the question one might ask at that point is, " Would > > > choice > > > > even be necessary at all? " > > > > > > > > It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; of > not > > > > knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go right? > > > Should I > > > > meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is the > > > driving, > > > > distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not > *free*. > > > I > > > > might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. > > > > > > > > To look at it from another direction, I need to be completely > clear > > > if I > > > > want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or > another. > > > And > > > > if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still would > > > be " no > > > > choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and > clarity > > > doesn't > > > > waiver between this or that. There is no *me* saying eeny meeny > > > miney > > > > mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to > apparent " free > > > will " . > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Bill, What do you want ? Do you want to prove there is a " doer " , an entity who is deciding, chosing, intending, liking and disliking ? I say there is none - basta ! Werner Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Take a hammer and hit your thumb. The you know what is not a Fata > > Morgana. > > > > Werner > > what do you mean? > the sensation of pain? > or also the hammer, thumb, etc. > > so you count direct sensory experience as real, > I gather. And nothing else. > > OK. But how real is even that? > Have you ever had the experience of going into pain > so completely that it is no longer pain? > > What is " directly sensed " cannot be taken at face > value. What is sensed always *depends*... > > and what does that depend upon? > programming in the brain? > > is the programming in the brain all fata morgana? > > if so then the sensation of pain depends on what is > itself fata morgana. > > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > As the neuroscientist Libet already proved in the 70th decisions > > are > > > > already made before they get conscious. > > > > > > > > Therefore consciousness is not the place from whre you start do > > make > > > > decisions or your choices. > > > > > > > > Intent, wishes, resistance, likes amd dislikes, etc - all happen > > and > > > > get conscious when they already are done. And who is the partaker, > > > > the doer, the willful originator ? He is a Fata Morgana ... > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > and so then, what is *not* fata morgana? > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Message 6 > > > > > " billrishel " illusyn@ > > > > > Tue May 2, 2006 7:29pm(PDT) > > > > > Re: This feeling . . ./ " who " makes a decision? > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " > > <adithya_comming@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as if my body has 'woke up' and... *I* > > > > > > > > has died! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or, as if ONLY my *body* woke up from > > > > > > > > the last night Sleep but the automatic > > > > > > > > 'mind' kept sleeping... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and, now the World feels ever... 'not there'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > > > > > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > > > > > > thoughts... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > > > > > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > > > > > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > > > > > > thinking! > > > > > > > > > > > > Arvind, > > > > > > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > > > > > > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be there to > > see > > > > the > > > > > > decision if this could happen. > > > > > > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision happening, it > > does > > > > > > NOT make it. > > > > > > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear about > > this. > > > > > **************************************************************** > > > > > > well said! > > > > > > > > > > > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > > > > > > must start with intent. > > > > > > > > > > > no intent, no decision > > > > > > > > > > > so where does the intent begin? > > > > > > > > > > > is there an intent to form the intent? > > > > > > clearly that makes no sense > > > > > > > > > > > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > > > > > > > > > > > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > **************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such thing > > > > as " free > > > > > choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete > > freedom > > > > from > > > > > all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, prejudice, > > bias, > > > > > desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and therefore > > not > > > > free. > > > > > Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL > > possibile > > > > > options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which by > > > > definition > > > > > means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, unexamined, > > > > > unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to > > > > conscious > > > > > awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that would > > > > persuade > > > > > choosing in one particular direction or another. And assuming > > this > > > > were > > > > > possible, the question one might ask at that point is, " Would > > > > choice > > > > > even be necessary at all? " > > > > > > > > > > It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; of > > not > > > > > knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go right? > > > > Should I > > > > > meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is the > > > > driving, > > > > > distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not > > *free*. > > > > I > > > > > might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. > > > > > > > > > > To look at it from another direction, I need to be completely > > clear > > > > if I > > > > > want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or > > another. > > > > And > > > > > if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still would > > > > be " no > > > > > choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and > > clarity > > > > doesn't > > > > > waiver between this or that. There is no *me* saying eeny meeny > > > > miney > > > > > mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to > > apparent " free > > > > will " . > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Bill, > > What do you want ? > > Do you want to prove there is a " doer " , an entity who is deciding, > chosing, intending, liking and disliking ? > > I say there is none - basta ! > > Werner Am saying that even your hammer blow is not real. When I asked, " What is not fata morgana? " ... to me the only answer is Nothing! Bill Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Take a hammer and hit your thumb. The you know what is not a Fata > > > Morgana. > > > > > > Werner > > > > what do you mean? > > the sensation of pain? > > or also the hammer, thumb, etc. > > > > so you count direct sensory experience as real, > > I gather. And nothing else. > > > > OK. But how real is even that? > > Have you ever had the experience of going into pain > > so completely that it is no longer pain? > > > > What is " directly sensed " cannot be taken at face > > value. What is sensed always *depends*... > > > > and what does that depend upon? > > programming in the brain? > > > > is the programming in the brain all fata morgana? > > > > if so then the sensation of pain depends on what is > > itself fata morgana. > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > As the neuroscientist Libet already proved in the 70th > decisions > > > are > > > > > already made before they get conscious. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore consciousness is not the place from whre you start > do > > > make > > > > > decisions or your choices. > > > > > > > > > > Intent, wishes, resistance, likes amd dislikes, etc - all > happen > > > and > > > > > get conscious when they already are done. And who is the > partaker, > > > > > the doer, the willful originator ? He is a Fata Morgana ... > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > and so then, what is *not* fata morgana? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Message 6 > > > > > > " billrishel " illusyn@ > > > > > > Tue May 2, 2006 7:29pm(PDT) > > > > > > Re: This feeling . . ./ " who " makes a decision? > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " > > > <adithya_comming@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as if my body has 'woke up' and... *I* > > > > > > > > > has died! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or, as if ONLY my *body* woke up from > > > > > > > > > the last night Sleep but the automatic > > > > > > > > > 'mind' kept sleeping... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and, now the World feels ever... 'not there'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > > > > > > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > > > > > > > thoughts... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > > > > > > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > > > > > > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > > > > > > > thinking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arvind, > > > > > > > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > > > > > > > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be > there to > > > see > > > > > the > > > > > > > decision if this could happen. > > > > > > > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision > happening, it > > > does > > > > > > > NOT make it. > > > > > > > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear > about > > > this. > > > > > > > **************************************************************** > > > > > > > well said! > > > > > > > > > > > > > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > > > > > > > must start with intent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > no intent, no decision > > > > > > > > > > > > > so where does the intent begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > is there an intent to form the intent? > > > > > > > clearly that makes no sense > > > > > > > > > > > > > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > > > > > > > > > > > > > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > **************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > > > Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such > thing > > > > > as " free > > > > > > choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete > > > freedom > > > > > from > > > > > > all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, > prejudice, > > > bias, > > > > > > desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and > therefore > > > not > > > > > free. > > > > > > Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL > > > possibile > > > > > > options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which > by > > > > > definition > > > > > > means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, > unexamined, > > > > > > unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to > > > > > conscious > > > > > > awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that > would > > > > > persuade > > > > > > choosing in one particular direction or another. And > assuming > > > this > > > > > were > > > > > > possible, the question one might ask at that point > is, " Would > > > > > choice > > > > > > even be necessary at all? " > > > > > > > > > > > > It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; > of > > > not > > > > > > knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go > right? > > > > > Should I > > > > > > meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is > the > > > > > driving, > > > > > > distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not > > > *free*. > > > > > I > > > > > > might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. > > > > > > > > > > > > To look at it from another direction, I need to be > completely > > > clear > > > > > if I > > > > > > want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or > > > another. > > > > > And > > > > > > if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still > would > > > > > be " no > > > > > > choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and > > > clarity > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > waiver between this or that. There is no *me* saying eeny > meeny > > > > > miney > > > > > > mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to > > > apparent " free > > > > > will " . > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 11:10:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Adamson " adamson Wed May 3, 2006 9:03am(PDT) Re: Who makes a decision Message 6 " billrishel " illusyn Tue May 2, 2006 7:29pm(PDT) Re: This feeling . . ./ " who " makes a decision? Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > as if my body has 'woke up' and... *I* > > > has died! > > > > > > or, as if ONLY my *body* woke up from > > > the last night Sleep but the automatic > > > 'mind' kept sleeping... > > > > > > and, now the World feels ever... 'not there'... > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > thoughts... > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > thinking! > > Arvind, > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be there to see the > decision if this could happen. > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision happening, it does > NOT make it. > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear about this. **************************************************************** > well said! > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > must start with intent. > no intent, no decision > so where does the intent begin? > is there an intent to form the intent? > clearly that makes no sense > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > Bill **************************************************** Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such thing as " free choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete freedom from all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, prejudice, bias, desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and therefore not free. Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL possibile options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which by definition means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, unexamined, unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to conscious awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that would persuade choosing in one particular direction or another. And assuming this were possible, the question one might ask at that point is, " Would choice even be necessary at all? " It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; of not knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go right? Should I meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is the driving, distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not *free*. I might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. To look at it from another direction, I need to be completely clear if I want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or another. And if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still would be " no choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and clarity doesn't waiver between this or that. There is no *me* saying eeny meeny miney mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to apparent " free will " . Michael If you look closely at the basis of your choice, you'll see that it arises entirely from your experience, which includes all past apparent choices. Of course, those choices, too, arose from your previous experiences. At any given moment, there's only one choice that will be made, which has already been determined by your experience, which you had no choice about. Even if there were an entity present to make a different choice, what else but prior experience would that choice be based on? You have been conditioned to make all your choices. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 11:10:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Werner Woehr " wwoehr Wed May 3, 2006 9:36am(PDT) Re: Who makes a decision Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson wrote: > > Message 6 > " billrishel " illusyn > Tue May 2, 2006 7:29pm(PDT) > Re: This feeling . . ./ " who " makes a decision? > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Arvind " <adithya_comming@> > > wrote: > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > as if my body has 'woke up' and... *I* > > > > has died! > > > > > > > > or, as if ONLY my *body* woke up from > > > > the last night Sleep but the automatic > > > > 'mind' kept sleeping... > > > > > > > > and, now the World feels ever... 'not there'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is accurate to say that > > > HERE... there are almost no automatic > > > thoughts... > > > > > > and, it seems there is just an > > > Intensely Aware Watcher who makes > > > 'conscious' decision as to when start > > > thinking! > > > > Arvind, > > i wonder how can you seriously write such a thing! > > A Watcher does not make any decision, it wouldn't be there to see the > > decision if this could happen. > > While being a watcher it ONLY SEES the decision happening, it does > > NOT make it. > > If you want to go on with this path you must be clear about this. > **************************************************************** > > well said! > > > any " decision " -- to be a decision -- > > must start with intent. > > > no intent, no decision > > > so where does the intent begin? > > > is there an intent to form the intent? > > clearly that makes no sense > > > but then the intent itself must simply arise... > > > and if so, there is no " who " to it at all! > > > Bill > **************************************************** > > Along these lines, it seems to me that there is no such thing as " free > choice " . Why? Because freedom implies there being complete freedom from > all influencing factors such as compulsion, fear, prejudice, bias, > desire, etc, otherwise, choice is " motivated " and therefore not free. > Also, to exercise free choice, one must be aware of ALL possibile > options to choose from, otherwise choice is limited, which by definition > means it is not free. In short, every unconscious, unexamined, > unquestioned aspect of oneself would have to be brought to conscious > awareness and swept entirely clean of all elements that would persuade > choosing in one particular direction or another. And assuming this were > possible, the question one might ask at that point is, " Would choice > even be necessary at all? " > > It also seems to be that choice springs out of " confusion " ; of not > knowing what to choose. Should I go left or should I go right? Should I > meditate or should I not? And if so, then " confusion " is the driving, > distorting factor behind the choosing, therefore, it's not *free*. I > might even be said that the *chooser* IS the *confusion*. > > To look at it from another direction, I need to be completely clear if I > want to chose freely, without being influenced one way or another. And > if this *clarity* is present and operative, there still would be " no > choice " being made. Why? Because *clarity* would act and clarity doesn't > waiver between this or that. There is no *me* saying eeny meeny miney > mo! :-) I believe the preceding also applies to apparent " free will " . > > Michael > As the neuroscientist Libet already proved in the 70th decisions are already made before they get conscious. Therefore consciousness is not the place from whre you start do make decisioms or your choices. Intent, wishes, resistnce, likes amd dislikes, etc - all happen and get conscious when they already are done. And who is the partaker, the doer, the willful originator ? Werner When one sits down at the kitchen table with a cup of coffee and a scone and ponders all the variables, the 200 ms delay encountered in the final decision has no meaning at all. In spite of that, there is no free choice. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 11:10:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " Werner Woehr " wwoehr > Wed May 3, 2006 9:36am(PDT) > Re: Who makes a decision > > > As the neuroscientist Libet already proved in the 70th decisions are > already made before they get conscious. > > Therefore consciousness is not the place from whre you start do make > decisioms or your choices. > > Intent, wishes, resistnce, likes amd dislikes, etc - all happen and > get conscious when they already are done. And who is the partaker, > the doer, the willful originator ? > > Werner > > > When one sits down at the kitchen table with a cup of coffee and a scone and > ponders all the variables, the 200 ms delay encountered in the final > decision has no meaning at all. > > In spite of that, there is no free choice. > > Phil > Yes Phil, There is no free choice, no free decicion, no free will. The illusion of free choice is consciousness itself. The decision making is a complex unconscious processs. Only the result, the " choice " is made concious and labeled as " me is chosing " which is as we know a lie. Werner > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > What do you want ? > > > > Do you want to prove there is a " doer " , an entity who is deciding, > > chosing, intending, liking and disliking ? > > > > I say there is none - basta ! > > > > Werner > > Am saying that even your hammer blow is not real. > > When I asked, " What is not fata morgana? " ... > to me the only answer is Nothing! > > Bill > > yes.....(Werner and the hammer-story included).... Marc Ps: we are the world....there is Nothing else in the " Fata Morgana " .... the spaceship which bring us outside Mother earth....is spirit the ghosts that one meet in here....are of mind.....not of spirit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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