Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " dennis_travis33 " dennis_travis33 Thu May 4, 2006 0:26am(PDT) Re: Spiritual Growth Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > Spiritual Growth > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the attempt to > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory sense of > separation. > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the machinery out > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on its own > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > toombaru > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we try to improve our > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve ourselves. When > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions so that we can > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still there and they're > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will make us happy, > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the lumps in the cushions. > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along has been the ego > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build up, and this is > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This is not playing > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates more of it. It > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It doesn't allow for > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em up and look at what > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to notice that we're > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice that examining > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, and we notice that > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to love others. We > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, attachments, > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and peace are sourced from > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in the corner and sucks > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it knows by now this > is no game. > > Phil > .....great story.... and all this without any " effort " ....wow..... Marc Effortlessness comes about through great effort, not through the choice to be effortless. This is just a pretense; the effort to be effortless, which becomes the next favorite dream. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Werner Woehr " wwoehr Thu May 4, 2006 1:16am(PDT) Re: Spiritual Growth Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > Spiritual Growth > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the attempt to > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory sense of > separation. > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the machinery out > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on its own > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > toombaru > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we try to improve our > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve ourselves. When > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions so that we can > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still there and they're > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will make us happy, > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the lumps in the cushions. > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along has been the ego > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build up, and this is > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This is not playing > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates more of it. It > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It doesn't allow for > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em up and look at what > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to notice that we're > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice that examining > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, and we notice that > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to love others. We > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, attachments, > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and peace are sourced from > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in the corner and sucks > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it knows by now this > is no game. > > Phil > Phil, Who is examining the ego contents, is their an examiner ? Contents are getting conscious, but who is the observer of those contents ? Isn't the observer just another reaction causing separation ? Then: You really have learned to love yourself ? Which means that there are two Phils, one who loves and the other who is loved. This again is separation, the split between the lover and the loved. The same is with loving others: The split goes on. And, you are the source of love ? Who is the knower of this ? The knower again is separation. That you are the source of love is a fantastic trick to shove meaning into your nothingness: Phil the source of love, wow ! Werner The examiner of the ego contents, which are thought patterns, is the same one who put those patterns in place and now pretends that he didn't. This is not a perceiver of illusion looking for absolute Truth, it's an illusion perceiver looking at his own self created illusion, in the same way you can examine what you were thinking 10 minutes ago. The reason you can observe your own thoughts is that You aren't your thoughts. The separation has already occurred and this is the only reason you're able to observe this mental process. Self love means self acceptance. Ego judges itself in the form of guilt and various forms of inadequacy. This should be obvious since almost all human interaction is the attempt to compensate for this feeling of not being enough. When folks try to destroy each other on this forum, it's because of the fear that somebody else might know something we don't or experience something we want to experience. Self acceptance is just the release of self judgment. It's noticed that the self is the source of love because the need to be loved from the outside falls away, and yet love remains. The same is true of peace. Obviously, mind/ego isn't the source of either of these, but the source is revealed when ego stops trying to be the source and cause love/peace to happen. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Johan " yohansky Thu May 4, 2006 1:55am(PDT) Re: Spiritual Growth Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain@ > > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > > Spiritual Growth > > > > > > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the attempt to > > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory sense of > > separation. > > > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the > machinery out > > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on its own > > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we try to > improve our > > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve > ourselves. When > > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions so that > we can > > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still there and > they're > > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will make > us happy, > > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the lumps in > the cushions. > > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along has been > the ego > > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build up, and > this is > > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This is not > playing > > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates more > of it. It > > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It doesn't > allow for > > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em up and > look at what > > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to notice > that we're > > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice that > examining > > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, and we > notice that > > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to love > others. We > > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, > attachments, > > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and peace are > sourced from > > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in the > corner and sucks > > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it knows > by now this > > is no game. > > > > Phil > > > Phil, > > Who is examining the ego contents, is there an examiner ? > > Contents are getting conscious, but who is the observer of those > contents ? Isn't the observer just another reaction causing > separation ? > > Then: > > You really have learned to love yourself ? Which means that there are > two Phils, the one who loves and the other who is loved. This again is > separation, the split between the lover and the loved. The same is > with loving others: The split goes on. > > And - you are the source of love ? Who is the knower of this ? The > knower again is separation. > > That you are the source of love is a fantastic trick to shove meaning > into your nothingness: Phil the source of love, wow ! > > Werner Please be easy on Phil for he is still one of the " babbling fools who don't know this yet. " See message 39849. And yes I am also one of them " fools " , for I don't think you will find an enlightened being wasting his/her time discussing opposites, even equals and other separations on the internet. That's okay. Nobody can disillusion a fool who knows he's a fool, and that's the beginning of freedom. I said recently, might have been here, that there are only two types of seekers with integrity; the one who knows he's a fool and stops seeking, and the one who will stop at nothing to end his foolishness. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " dennis_travis33 " dennis_travis33 Thu May 4, 2006 2:09am(PDT) Re: Spiritual Growth Nisargadatta , " Johan " <yohansky wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain@ > > > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > > > Spiritual Growth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the attempt > to > > > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory > sense of > > > separation. > > > > > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > > > > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > > > > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > > > > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the > > machinery out > > > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on its own > > > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we try to > > improve our > > > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve > > ourselves. When > > > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions so > that > > we can > > > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still there > and > > they're > > > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > > > > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will > make > > us happy, > > > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the lumps in > > the cushions. > > > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along has > been > > the ego > > > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build up, > and > > this is > > > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This is > not > > playing > > > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > > > > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates > more > > of it. It > > > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It doesn't > > allow for > > > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em up > and > > look at what > > > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > > > > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to notice > > that we're > > > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice that > > examining > > > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, and > we > > notice that > > > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > > > > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to love > > others. We > > > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, > > attachments, > > > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and peace > are > > sourced from > > > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in the > > corner and sucks > > > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it > knows > > by now this > > > is no game. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > Phil, > > > > Who is examining the ego contents, is there an examiner ? > > > > Contents are getting conscious, but who is the observer of those > > contents ? Isn't the observer just another reaction causing > > separation ? > > > > Then: > > > > You really have learned to love yourself ? Which means that there > are > > two Phils, the one who loves and the other who is loved. This > again is > > separation, the split between the lover and the loved. The same is > > with loving others: The split goes on. > > > > And - you are the source of love ? Who is the knower of this ? The > > knower again is separation. > > > > That you are the source of love is a fantastic trick to shove > meaning > > into your nothingness: Phil the source of love, wow ! > > > > Werner > > Please be easy on Phil for he is still one of the " babbling fools > who don't know this yet. " See message 39849. And yes I am also one > of them " fools " , for I don't think you will find an enlightened > being wasting his/her time discussing opposites, even equals and > other separations on the internet. > > > > yes....little difficult to be at the feet of an " enlightened Master " in here..... Those feets.....can't be touched through the screen......true Marc An 'enlightened master' would kick butt from here to Bombay for the silliness that goes on here. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Werner Woehr " wwoehr Thu May 4, 2006 2:19am(PDT) Re: Spiritual Growth Nisargadatta , " Johan " <yohansky wrote: > > > Phil, > > > > Who is examining the ego contents, is there an examiner ? > > > > Contents are getting conscious, but who is the observer of those > > contents ? Isn't the observer just another reaction causing > > separation ? > > > > Then: > > > > You really have learned to love yourself ? Which means that there > are > > two Phils, the one who loves and the other who is loved. This > again is > > separation, the split between the lover and the loved. The same is > > with loving others: The split goes on. > > > > And - you are the source of love ? Who is the knower of this ? The > > knower again is separation. > > > > That you are the source of love is a fantastic trick to shove > meaning > > into your nothingness: Phil the source of love, wow ! > > > > Werner > > Please be easy on Phil for he is still one of the " babbling fools > who don't know this yet. " See message 39849. And yes I am also one > of them " fools " , for I don't think you will find an enlightened > being wasting his/her time discussing opposites, even equals and > other separations on the internet. > > > > You are right, Johan, Sometimes I also get that thought if would be a realized being I wouldn't waste my time here on this list. Therefore I am too a fool, a babbler. Werner Welcome to the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 P: One meaning of the word growth is: > tumor. Spirituality could turn malignant, > when used as a survival tool. The very > idea that there are enlightened entities > is a malignant thought. As long as > beliefs such as entities, or that time could > be waste, or that a list is unworthy of > my wisdom are held to, enlightenment is > not. > The myth of Buddha and his " enlightenment " is a particularly powerful one. It is easy to see (for some) that the Christian story of Jesus raising from the dead etc. as a myth. But for many of those same ones " enlightenment " is not a myth at all. But what is a myth? It is a gripping vision that serves as a paradigm in shaping the course of the lives of those holding to it. In other words, a myth is a " strange attractor " . Bill P: Liberation is seeing there was no one to liberate, in the first place. Until that happens, enlightenment is the urge to swim upstream. Salmons are that way! Pat: So by swimming upstream in a frantic manner One would reach enlightment? P: Bears and fishermen permitting. Salmons have not heard of choice. Dumb little critters, don't you think? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Johan " yohansky Thu May 4, 2006 4:18am(PDT) Re: Spiritual Growth Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > --- In Nisargadatta , " Johan " <yohansky@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain@ > > > > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > > > > Spiritual Growth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the attempt > > to > > > > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory > > sense of > > > > separation. > > > > > > > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > > > > > > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > > > > > > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > > > > > > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the > > > machinery out > > > > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on its > own > > > > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we try > to > > > improve our > > > > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve > > > ourselves. When > > > > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions so > > that > > > we can > > > > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still there > > and > > > they're > > > > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > > > > > > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will > > make > > > us happy, > > > > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the lumps > in > > > the cushions. > > > > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along has > > been > > > the ego > > > > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build up, > > and > > > this is > > > > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This is > > not > > > playing > > > > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > > > > > > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates > > more > > > of it. It > > > > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It doesn't > > > allow for > > > > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em up > > and > > > look at what > > > > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > > > > > > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to notice > > > that we're > > > > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice > that > > > examining > > > > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, > and > > we > > > notice that > > > > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > > > > > > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to love > > > others. We > > > > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, > > > attachments, > > > > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and peace > > are > > > sourced from > > > > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in the > > > corner and sucks > > > > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it > > knows > > > by now this > > > > is no game. > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > > > Who is examining the ego contents, is there an examiner ? > > > > > > Contents are getting conscious, but who is the observer of those > > > contents ? Isn't the observer just another reaction causing > > > separation ? > > > > > > Then: > > > > > > You really have learned to love yourself ? Which means that there > > are > > > two Phils, the one who loves and the other who is loved. This > > again is > > > separation, the split between the lover and the loved. The same is > > > with loving others: The split goes on. > > > > > > And - you are the source of love ? Who is the knower of this ? The > > > knower again is separation. > > > > > > That you are the source of love is a fantastic trick to shove > > meaning > > > into your nothingness: Phil the source of love, wow ! > > > > > > Werner > > > > Please be easy on Phil for he is still one of the " babbling fools > > who don't know this yet. " See message 39849. And yes I am also one > > of them " fools " , for I don't think you will find an enlightened > > being wasting his/her time discussing opposites, even equals and > > other separations on the internet. > > > > > > > yes....little difficult to be at the feet of an " enlightened Master " > in here..... > > Those feets.....can't be touched through the screen......true > > Marc Then wash your own feet, 'cause the one and only guru dwells within yourself. WoooHooo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " dennis_travis33 " dennis_travis33 Thu May 4, 2006 5:24am(PDT) Re: Spiritual Growth Nisargadatta , " Johan " <yohansky wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Johan " <yohansky@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight > Time, > > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain@ > > > > > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > > > > > Spiritual Growth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the > attempt > > > to > > > > > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory > > > sense of > > > > > separation. > > > > > > > > > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > > > > > > > > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > > > > > > > > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > > > > > > > > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the > > > > machinery out > > > > > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on > its > > own > > > > > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we > try > > to > > > > improve our > > > > > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve > > > > ourselves. When > > > > > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions > so > > > that > > > > we can > > > > > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still > there > > > and > > > > they're > > > > > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > > > > > > > > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will > > > make > > > > us happy, > > > > > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the > lumps > > in > > > > the cushions. > > > > > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along > has > > > been > > > > the ego > > > > > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build > up, > > > and > > > > this is > > > > > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This > is > > > not > > > > playing > > > > > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > > > > > > > > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates > > > more > > > > of it. It > > > > > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It > doesn't > > > > allow for > > > > > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em > up > > > and > > > > look at what > > > > > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > > > > > > > > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to > notice > > > > that we're > > > > > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice > > that > > > > examining > > > > > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, > > and > > > we > > > > notice that > > > > > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > > > > > > > > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to > love > > > > others. We > > > > > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, > > > > attachments, > > > > > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and > peace > > > are > > > > sourced from > > > > > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in > the > > > > corner and sucks > > > > > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it > > > knows > > > > by now this > > > > > is no game. > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > > > > > Who is examining the ego contents, is there an examiner ? > > > > > > > > Contents are getting conscious, but who is the observer of > those > > > > contents ? Isn't the observer just another reaction causing > > > > separation ? > > > > > > > > Then: > > > > > > > > You really have learned to love yourself ? Which means that > there > > > are > > > > two Phils, the one who loves and the other who is loved. This > > > again is > > > > separation, the split between the lover and the loved. The > same is > > > > with loving others: The split goes on. > > > > > > > > And - you are the source of love ? Who is the knower of this ? > The > > > > knower again is separation. > > > > > > > > That you are the source of love is a fantastic trick to shove > > > meaning > > > > into your nothingness: Phil the source of love, wow ! > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > Please be easy on Phil for he is still one of the " babbling > fools > > > who don't know this yet. " See message 39849. And yes I am also > one > > > of them " fools " , for I don't think you will find an enlightened > > > being wasting his/her time discussing opposites, even equals and > > > other separations on the internet. > > > > > > > > > > yes....little difficult to be at the feet of an " enlightened > Master " > > in here..... > > > > Those feets.....can't be touched through the screen......true > > > > Marc > > Then wash your own feet, 'cause the one and only guru dwells within > yourself. > > > ....ahh...so why missing an enlightened in here?.... Marc The implication was that nobody here is enlightened. I didn't see any preference indicated for one to be " in here " . Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " dennis_travis33 " dennis_travis33 > Thu May 4, 2006 0:26am(PDT) > Re: Spiritual Growth > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain@ > > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > > Spiritual Growth > > > > > > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the attempt to > > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory sense of > > separation. > > > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the > machinery out > > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on its own > > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we try to > improve our > > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve > ourselves. When > > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions so that > we can > > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still there and > they're > > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will make > us happy, > > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the lumps in > the cushions. > > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along has been > the ego > > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build up, and > this is > > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This is not > playing > > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates more > of it. It > > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It doesn't > allow for > > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em up and > look at what > > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to notice > that we're > > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice that > examining > > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, and we > notice that > > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to love > others. We > > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, > attachments, > > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and peace are > sourced from > > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in the > corner and sucks > > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it knows > by now this > > is no game. > > > > Phil > > > ....great story.... > > and all this without any " effort " ....wow..... > > > > Marc > > > > Effortlessness comes about through great effort, not through the choice to > be effortless. This is just a pretense; the effort to be effortless, which > becomes the next favorite dream. > > Phil > you are the one writing messages about " effortlessness " ....and " great effort " ...... effortlessness is the result of Peace....which....for some reason.....you are still missing..... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " dennis_travis33 " dennis_travis33 > Thu May 4, 2006 0:26am(PDT) > Re: Spiritual Growth > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain@ > > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > > Spiritual Growth > > > > > > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the attempt to > > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory sense of > > separation. > > > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the > machinery out > > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on its own > > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we try to > improve our > > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve > ourselves. When > > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions so that > we can > > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still there and > they're > > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will make > us happy, > > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the lumps in > the cushions. > > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along has been > the ego > > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build up, and > this is > > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This is not > playing > > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates more > of it. It > > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It doesn't > allow for > > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em up and > look at what > > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to notice > that we're > > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice that > examining > > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, and we > notice that > > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to love > others. We > > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, > attachments, > > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and peace are > sourced from > > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in the > corner and sucks > > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it knows > by now this > > is no game. > > > > Phil > > > ....great story.... > > and all this without any " effort " ....wow..... > > > > Marc > > > > Effortlessness comes about through great effort, not through the choice to > be effortless. This is just a pretense; the effort to be effortless, which > becomes the next favorite dream. > > Phil Effortlessness does not come about through a choice to be effortless. Effortlessness does not come about through great effort. Really, effortlessness always is, and to *realize* effortlessness is to fall back into the natural state. Effortlessness may be discussed by some as a *means*, but it is not. There is no means. What is to be realized is what is already. Which is why it is a *realization* and not an achievment. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 In a message dated 5/5/2006 9:13:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " dennis_travis33 " dennis_travis33 Fri May 5, 2006 0:18am(PDT) Re: Spiritual Growth Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " dennis_travis33 " dennis_travis33 > Thu May 4, 2006 0:26am(PDT) > Re: Spiritual Growth > > --- In Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain@ > > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > > Spiritual Growth > > > > > > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the attempt to > > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory sense of > > separation. > > > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the > machinery out > > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on its own > > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we try to > improve our > > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve > ourselves. When > > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions so that > we can > > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still there and > they're > > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will make > us happy, > > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the lumps in > the cushions. > > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along has been > the ego > > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build up, and > this is > > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This is not > playing > > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates more > of it. It > > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It doesn't > allow for > > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em up and > look at what > > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to notice > that we're > > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice that > examining > > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, and we > notice that > > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to love > others. We > > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, > attachments, > > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and peace are > sourced from > > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in the > corner and sucks > > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it knows > by now this > > is no game. > > > > Phil > > > ....great story.... > > and all this without any " effort " ....wow..... > > > > Marc > > > > Effortlessness comes about through great effort, not through the choice to > be effortless. This is just a pretense; the effort to be effortless, which > becomes the next favorite dream. > > Phil > you are the one writing messages about " effortlessness " ....and " great effort " ...... effortlessness is the result of Peace....which....for some reason.....you are still missing..... Marc There is no mention of effort or effortlessness in this discussion except by you. Effortlessness and Peace arise together; one does not cause the other. Your perception that I am missing Peace is an elegant ego projection which also subtly establishes you as one who is not missing Peace and at the same time devalues me so as to elevate you. None of this would be necessary if there was Peace. ..........wish for you this Peace. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 In a message dated 5/5/2006 9:13:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: " pliantheart " pliantheart Fri May 5, 2006 3:09am(PDT) Re: Spiritual Growth Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/4/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " dennis_travis33 " dennis_travis33 > Thu May 4, 2006 0:26am(PDT) > Re: Spiritual Growth > > --- In Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:10:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " toombaru2006 " lastrain@ > > Wed May 3, 2006 6:49pm(PDT) > > Spiritual Growth > > > > > > > > > > The driving force behind all 'spiritual growth' is the attempt to > > assuage the innate uneasiness inherent within the illusory sense of > > separation. > > > > It is the desire to improve that which never was. > > > > It is medicine for a disease that never existed. > > > > It is makeup.....applied to the mirror. > > > > It is discontent with the perceived status quo that is the > machinery out > > of which the identified entity pulsates.........feeds on its own > > fear....and then evaporates back in the light of Awareness. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > What you describe is mostly the process of life. First we try to > improve our > > external circumstances. When that fails, we try to improve > ourselves. When > > that fails, we start hiding things under the sofa cushions so that > we can > > pretend we are more than we are, but the lumps are still there and > they're > > irritating but we have to leave em there. > > > > Then we hop on the spirituality bus cause we think this will make > us happy, > > and we start looking for things ego can use to hide the lumps in > the cushions. > > Finally, we're forced to admit that the problem all along has been > the ego > > we've been trying to improve and hide pieces of and build up, and > this is > > where some find the courage to start disassembling it. This is not > playing > > spiritual games, but rather a search for truth. > > > > The search for truth does not assuage uneasiness, it creates more > of it. It > > doesn't make ego better, it weakens and humbles it. It doesn't > allow for > > ignoring the lumps in the cushion, it forces us to lift em up and > look at what > > we've kept hidden there for so long. > > > > None of this is fun, but we keep going cause we start to notice > that we're > > not as fearful or as judgmental as we used to be. We notice that > examining > > ego's contents has the interesting effect of dissolving it, and we > notice that > > the only reason it remained is because it remained hidden. > > > > We learn to love ourselves and this makes it possible to love > others. We > > find that we are the source of love. Ego defenses, fears, > attachments, > > projections are gone and this leads to peace. As love and peace are > sourced from > > within, this brings many moments of great joy. Ego sits in the > corner and sucks > > it's thumb and waits to see what's gonna happen next, but it knows > by now this > > is no game. > > > > Phil > > > ....great story.... > > and all this without any " effort " ....wow..... > > > > Marc > > > > Effortlessness comes about through great effort, not through the choice to > be effortless. This is just a pretense; the effort to be effortless, which > becomes the next favorite dream. > > Phil Effortlessness does not come about through a choice to be effortless. Effortlessness does not come about through great effort. Really, effortlessness always is, and to *realize* effortlessness is to fall back into the natural state. Effortlessness may be discussed by some as a *means*, but it is not. There is no means. What is to be realized is what is already. Which is why it is a *realization* and not an achievment. Bill There's no need to elevate effortlessness into the ethereal realm of something that always is and can be realized. Effortlessness is not some divine Truth that descends upon one in a moment of grace. Effort is the struggle that results from human ignorance and effortlessness is the ceasing of that nonsense. That's all. Did not say effortlessness was a means. I said it comes about through great effort. Only when the mind has searched frantically for answers does it come to understand that the questions themselves have no meaning. Only when all attempts to fix the world and the self have failed does it consider the possibility of simply accepting it all as it is. Only when ego has explored every possible way to own God, and then to become God, does it consider the possibility of allowing itself to dissolve into God. Can mind/ego bypass all this effort and jump right to effortlessness? No, it can only pretend to do so. The effort that occurs is called experience, and this will happen in spite of all attempts to bypass it. Experience is what the experiential aspect of God 'does'. God is going to win. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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