Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 the dream need a dreamer to be dreamed.... like the world need to mind to appear... nobody ever had an independent mind.... just like nobody ever is awake during sleep... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > > > the dream need a dreamer to be dreamed.... > like the world need to mind to appear... > > nobody ever had an independent mind.... > just like nobody ever is awake during sleep... > > > Marc > " the dream need a dreamer to be dreamed.... " and when this is seen, is that just more dream? and when does something larger move onto the stage... something that makes the floors creak and the rafters tremble... contemplation is one thing... I am speaking of the Actual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > the dream need a dreamer to be dreamed.... > > like the world need to mind to appear... > > > > nobody ever had an independent mind.... > > just like nobody ever is awake during sleep... > > > > > > Marc > > > > " the dream need a dreamer to be dreamed.... " > > and when this is seen, is that just more dream? > > and when does something larger move onto the stage... > something that makes the floors creak > and the rafters tremble... > > contemplation is one thing... > > > I am speaking of the Actual Hi Bill, yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the Actual... the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen because there is a mind working..... as long the mind is working nicely...there is a perfect dream..... of the world....of " you " and " me " ....of the " flower " ....the " fish " ... the " garden " .... it's not your dream....neither it's mine..... it's the effect of a working mind..... we are not the mind...... what we realy are...and ever have been...is behind mind (concepts, theories, worlds, fishes, flowers, trees.....) Marc Ps: it's very hard for ego-mind to loose the illusion of being an individual body-mind-intellect.....but there is no choice thats the truth > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > the dream need a dreamer to be dreamed.... > > > like the world need to mind to appear... > > > > > > nobody ever had an independent mind.... > > > just like nobody ever is awake during sleep... > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > " the dream need a dreamer to be dreamed.... " > > > > and when this is seen, is that just more dream? > > > > and when does something larger move onto the stage... > > something that makes the floors creak > > and the rafters tremble... > > > > contemplation is one thing... > > > > > > I am speaking of the Actual > > > Hi Bill, > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the Actual... > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > because there is a mind working..... from the point-of-view of mind... all is because of mind... what moves with silent breadth and depth beyond all considerations mind has no grasp of... illusion is, quite simply, the spell of mind's explanations when that has all been cast aside (who knows how or why) and the spell is broken the order of things is revealed as Mystery and surprise but there is no " contemplator " musing any more on the how, the why, the wherefore... mind has always been a very small player though in mind's imaginings it has festooned itself with greatness a " greatness " in the end to be crumpled and discarded like a used paper cup [nothing more new... ] > as long the mind is working nicely...there is a perfect dream..... > of the world....of " you " and " me " ....of the " flower " ....the " fish " ... > the " garden " .... > > it's not your dream....neither it's mine..... > > it's the effect of a working mind..... > > we are not the mind...... > > what we realy are...and ever have been...is behind mind (concepts, > theories, worlds, fishes, flowers, trees.....) > > Marc > > > Ps: it's very hard for ego-mind to loose the illusion of being an > individual body-mind-intellect.....but there is no choice > thats the truth > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the dream need a dreamer to be dreamed.... > > > > like the world need to mind to appear... > > > > > > > > nobody ever had an independent mind.... > > > > just like nobody ever is awake during sleep... > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > " the dream need a dreamer to be dreamed.... " > > > > > > and when this is seen, is that just more dream? > > > > > > and when does something larger move onto the stage... > > > something that makes the floors creak > > > and the rafters tremble... > > > > > > contemplation is one thing... > > > > > > > > > I am speaking of the Actual > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the Actual... > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > because there is a mind working..... > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > all is because of mind... " > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... mind itelf can't see behind.... " what moves with silent > breadth and depth > beyond all considerations > mind has no grasp of... " -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... " movement " is of mind only > > " illusion is, quite simply, > the spell of mind's explanations " -many explanations about " illusion " .... most famous one is the illusion that the individuality is apart from mind..... the dreamed individuality is of mind too... > > " when that has all been cast aside > (who knows how or why) > and the spell is broken > the order of things is revealed > as Mystery > and surprise > > but there is no " contemplator " > musing any more on the > how, the why, the wherefore... > > mind has always been a very small player > though in mind's imaginings it has > festooned itself with greatness > > a " greatness " in the end > to be crumpled and discarded > like a used paper cup " ....mind is playing around....as long there is no Silence Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 <snip> > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the Actual... > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > all is because of mind... " > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > mind itelf can't see behind.... but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind is *irrelevant*... that is my whole point! > " what moves with silent > > breadth and depth > > beyond all considerations > > mind has no grasp of... " > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > " movement " is of mind only no... the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " but that is not the only movement... > > " illusion is, quite simply, > > the spell of mind's explanations " > > -many explanations about " illusion " .... > most famous one is the illusion that the individuality is apart from > mind..... > the dreamed individuality is of mind too... there is experience apart from mind > > > " when that has all been cast aside > > (who knows how or why) > > and the spell is broken > > the order of things is revealed > > as Mystery > > and surprise > > > > but there is no " contemplator " > > musing any more on the > > how, the why, the wherefore... > > > > mind has always been a very small player > > though in mind's imaginings it has > > festooned itself with greatness > > > > a " greatness " in the end > > to be crumpled and discarded > > like a used paper cup " > > ...mind is playing around....as long there is no Silence > yes... and if Silence, no mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the Actual... > > > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > > all is because of mind... " > > > > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > > mind itelf can't see behind.... > > but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind > is *irrelevant*... > that is my whole point! > > > " what moves with silent > > > breadth and depth > > > beyond all considerations > > > mind has no grasp of... " > > > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > > " movement " is of mind only > > no... > the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " > > but that is not the only movement... > > > > > " illusion is, quite simply, > > > the spell of mind's explanations " > > > > -many explanations about " illusion " .... > > most famous one is the illusion that the individuality is apart > from > > mind..... > > the dreamed individuality is of mind too... > > there is experience apart from mind > > > > > > > " when that has all been cast aside > > > (who knows how or why) > > > and the spell is broken > > > the order of things is revealed > > > as Mystery > > > and surprise > > > > > > but there is no " contemplator " > > > musing any more on the > > > how, the why, the wherefore... > > > > > > mind has always been a very small player > > > though in mind's imaginings it has > > > festooned itself with greatness > > > > > > a " greatness " in the end > > > to be crumpled and discarded > > > like a used paper cup " > > > > ...mind is playing around....as long there is no Silence > > > > yes... > and if Silence, no mind... > There can be no " Silence " without the mind recognizing it or if a tree falls in the woods..... Love, Ana p.s. I am the cat let out of the bag ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 On 5/18/06, anabebe57 <anabebe57 wrote: > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn > wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the > Actual... > > > > > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > > > all is because of mind... " > > > > > > > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > > > mind itelf can't see behind.... > > > > but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind > > is *irrelevant*... > > that is my whole point! > > > > > " what moves with silent > > > > breadth and depth > > > > beyond all considerations > > > > mind has no grasp of... " > > > > > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > > > " movement " is of mind only > > > > no... > > the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " > > > > but that is not the only movement... > > > > > > > > " illusion is, quite simply, > > > > the spell of mind's explanations " > > > > > > -many explanations about " illusion " .... > > > most famous one is the illusion that the individuality is apart > > from > > > mind..... > > > the dreamed individuality is of mind too... > > > > there is experience apart from mind > > > > > > > > > > > " when that has all been cast aside > > > > (who knows how or why) > > > > and the spell is broken > > > > the order of things is revealed > > > > as Mystery > > > > and surprise > > > > > > > > but there is no " contemplator " > > > > musing any more on the > > > > how, the why, the wherefore... > > > > > > > > mind has always been a very small player > > > > though in mind's imaginings it has > > > > festooned itself with greatness > > > > > > > > a " greatness " in the end > > > > to be crumpled and discarded > > > > like a used paper cup " > > > > > > ...mind is playing around....as long there is no Silence > > > > > > > yes... > > and if Silence, no mind... > > > > > There can be no " Silence " without the mind recognizing it > or if a tree falls in the woods..... not true! the same for Peace or Light with Light it is perhaps easier to see... when all is Light... there certainly is no-mind and yet... quite clear... Light! > Love, > Ana > > p.s. I am the cat let out of the bag ;-) > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the Actual... > > > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > > all is because of mind... " > > > > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > > mind itelf can't see behind.... > > but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind > is *irrelevant*... > that is my whole point! > yes...i understood your point.... i expressed exactly the same with my words... > > " what moves with silent > > > breadth and depth > > > beyond all considerations > > > mind has no grasp of... " > > > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > > " movement " is of mind only > > no... > the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " > > but that is not the only movement... don't know what " this something " would be... mind Is the movement (yes, it's possible to know that there is " something behind " without movement....and even without any real relation to the movement of mind... the mirror itself has nothing to do with the reflected forms in it....it only let the forms appear....thats all) > > > > > " illusion is, quite simply, > > > the spell of mind's explanations " > > > > -many explanations about " illusion " .... > > most famous one is the illusion that the individuality is apart > from > > mind..... > > the dreamed individuality is of mind too... > > there is experience apart from mind mind include whole of your body-system.... how could experience be apart from mind? to be aware of Self....is to be aware at same time of the non- existing entity....which appeared to " experience " before.... > > > > >Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the > Actual... > > > > > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > > > all is because of mind... " > > > > > > > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > > > mind itelf can't see behind.... > > > > but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind > > is *irrelevant*... > > that is my whole point! > > > > yes...i understood your point.... > i expressed exactly the same with my words... > > > > > " what moves with silent > > > > breadth and depth > > > > beyond all considerations > > > > mind has no grasp of... " > > > > > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > > > " movement " is of mind only > > > > no... > > the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " > > > > but that is not the only movement... > > > don't know what " this something " would be... > > mind Is the movement > > (yes, it's possible to know that there is " something behind " without > movement....and even without any real relation to the movement of > mind... > the mirror itself has nothing to do with the reflected forms in > it....it only let the forms appear....thats all) I think I see why you don't understand what I am saying. And this is a very deep point. But here's a stab: At one point I did experience a " silent background " which had the quality of " something behind " such as you describe. In terms of the notion of figure/ground, it was the ground, and all thought, all " activity " in consciousness was as illuminated forms against that silent, implacable background. That background was not conceptual... it was *real*. I won't try to explain that, but it was utterly independent of whatever content of consciousness. Sometimes that background would " move in " and there would be utterly profound silence and depth. Sometimes it would be moved " way out " , as if in detached relation to " what was going on " . I should mention also that the " silent background " had a distinct inky, almost tar-like quality. Whatever was of consciousness that went into it simply dissolved. It was like a " black hole " in that regard. Over time that silent background began more and more to *seep in*, permeating what manifested as consciousness. As it did so the flow of thought, speech, action -- whatever was of consciousness -- took on more and more of a *trance-like* quality. I said that even before that the background would sometimes " move in " . When that happened it was as if in a profound trance. As the background began to " seep in " the trance-like quality began to pervade all " normal " conscious activities and experience. Until, eventually, all was as if assimilated into that inkly, implacably rich and deep background. And so it came to be that deep trance was *always the case*. When all that was done/experienced was as if in deep trance, then consciousness -- which was no longer needed to *do* anything -- became available to simply *apprehend*. And in so apprehending the *over-all movement* of the trance became more and more evident. This is maybe impossible to describe unless you already know first hand. But, for example, words spoken became evident as just a minor detail of a much larger movement. And that larger movement pertained not to a " person " ... the person was not a significant abstraction anymore. The larger movement was simply the undulation of silence within itself. So your notions of " behind " and " mirror " no longer apply at that stage. It is all very very fluid, with an unspeakable wholeness, utterly beyond and indifferent to the world-views of " people " . Complete within itself, it toils in the Unknown, Incomprehensible, reflecting deeper and deeper the profound luminence that emanates from its core. > > > > > > " illusion is, quite simply, > > > > the spell of mind's explanations " > > > > > > -many explanations about " illusion " .... > > > most famous one is the illusion that the individuality is apart > > from > > > mind..... > > > the dreamed individuality is of mind too... > > > > there is experience apart from mind > > mind include whole of your body-system.... > how could experience be apart from mind? see above > to be aware of Self....is to be aware at same time of the non- > existing entity....which appeared to " experience " before.... > > same > > > > >Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > > wrote: > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the > > Actual... > > > > > > > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > > > > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > > > > all is because of mind... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > > > > mind itelf can't see behind.... > > > > > > but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind > > > is *irrelevant*... > > > that is my whole point! > > > > > > > yes...i understood your point.... > > i expressed exactly the same with my words... > > > > > > > > " what moves with silent > > > > > breadth and depth > > > > > beyond all considerations > > > > > mind has no grasp of... " > > > > > > > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > > > > " movement " is of mind only > > > > > > no... > > > the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " > > > > > > but that is not the only movement... > > > > > > don't know what " this something " would be... > > > > mind Is the movement > > > > (yes, it's possible to know that there is " something behind " > without > > movement....and even without any real relation to the movement of > > mind... > > the mirror itself has nothing to do with the reflected forms in > > it....it only let the forms appear....thats all) > > I think I see why you don't understand what I am > saying. And this is a very deep point. But here's > a stab: > > At one point I did experience a " silent background " > which had the quality of " something behind " such as > you describe. In terms of the notion of figure/ground, > it was the ground, and all thought, all " activity " in > consciousness was as illuminated forms against that > silent, implacable background. That background was > not conceptual... it was *real*. I won't try to explain > that, but it was utterly independent of whatever content > of consciousness. Sometimes that background would > " move in " and there would be utterly profound silence > and depth. Sometimes it would be moved " way out " , as > if in detached relation to " what was going on " . > > I should mention also that the " silent background " > had a distinct inky, almost tar-like quality. Whatever > was of consciousness that went into it simply dissolved. > It was like a " black hole " in that regard. > > Over time that silent background began more and more > to *seep in*, permeating what manifested as consciousness. > As it did so the flow of thought, speech, action -- whatever > was of consciousness -- took on more and more of a > *trance-like* quality. > > I said that even before that the background would sometimes > " move in " . When that happened it was as if in a profound > trance. As the background began to " seep in " the trance-like > quality began to pervade all " normal " conscious activities > and experience. Until, eventually, all was as if assimilated > into that inkly, implacably rich and deep background. > And so it came to be that deep trance was *always the case*. > > When all that was done/experienced was as if in deep > trance, then consciousness -- which was no longer needed to > *do* anything -- became available to simply *apprehend*. > And in so apprehending the *over-all movement* of the > trance became more and more evident. This is maybe > impossible to describe unless you already know first > hand. But, for example, words spoken became evident as > just a minor detail of a much larger movement. And that > larger movement pertained not to a " person " ... the person > was not a significant abstraction anymore. The larger > movement was simply the undulation of silence within > itself. > > So your notions of " behind " and " mirror " no longer apply > at that stage. It is all very very fluid, with an > unspeakable wholeness, utterly beyond and indifferent to > the world-views of " people " . Complete within itself, it > toils in the Unknown, Incomprehensible, reflecting deeper > and deeper the profound luminence that emanates from its > core. > .....thanks for your description and explanations... it's clear, i wrote you recently, that everybody who is on the path......make " experiences " .....again....and again.... more and more.... if everybody would describe in detail his/her experiences in here..... i think we would get mad in comparing all the different " experiences " .......that everybody make..... on the path there is only one path..... just like there is only one being.... ....on search for/from/by/in/over/behind/.....Itself what happen on the path....is delusion.....of being " this or that " ... what will remain...one day....is absolut nothingness..... infinite, changeless, timeless, formless this real nature is present....in every appearing " movement " ....sure..... one who is in meditation state of mind....is conscious about the real nature......which is present....here and now......in whatever situation and movements.... the one " who " know the real nature.....don't need to prove it to anybody...... it's not necessary to describe It in endless words....... everybody is already everything.....no words about it's absurd to select people into knower of truth....and ignorant people..... only fools don't " see " oneness in All greetings from/to/by yourself..... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > > > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the > > > Actual... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > > > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > > > > > > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > > > > > all is because of mind... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > > > > > mind itelf can't see behind.... > > > > > > > > but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind > > > > is *irrelevant*... > > > > that is my whole point! > > > > > > > > > > yes...i understood your point.... > > > i expressed exactly the same with my words... > > > > > > > > > > > " what moves with silent > > > > > > breadth and depth > > > > > > beyond all considerations > > > > > > mind has no grasp of... " > > > > > > > > > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > > > > > " movement " is of mind only > > > > > > > > no... > > > > the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " > > > > > > > > but that is not the only movement... > > > > > > > > > don't know what " this something " would be... > > > > > > mind Is the movement > > > > > > (yes, it's possible to know that there is " something behind " > > without > > > movement....and even without any real relation to the movement of > > > mind... > > > the mirror itself has nothing to do with the reflected forms in > > > it....it only let the forms appear....thats all) > > > > I think I see why you don't understand what I am > > saying. And this is a very deep point. But here's > > a stab: > > > > At one point I did experience a " silent background " > > which had the quality of " something behind " such as > > you describe. In terms of the notion of figure/ground, > > it was the ground, and all thought, all " activity " in > > consciousness was as illuminated forms against that > > silent, implacable background. That background was > > not conceptual... it was *real*. I won't try to explain > > that, but it was utterly independent of whatever content > > of consciousness. Sometimes that background would > > " move in " and there would be utterly profound silence > > and depth. Sometimes it would be moved " way out " , as > > if in detached relation to " what was going on " . > > > > I should mention also that the " silent background " > > had a distinct inky, almost tar-like quality. Whatever > > was of consciousness that went into it simply dissolved. > > It was like a " black hole " in that regard. > > > > Over time that silent background began more and more > > to *seep in*, permeating what manifested as consciousness. > > As it did so the flow of thought, speech, action -- whatever > > was of consciousness -- took on more and more of a > > *trance-like* quality. > > > > I said that even before that the background would sometimes > > " move in " . When that happened it was as if in a profound > > trance. As the background began to " seep in " the trance-like > > quality began to pervade all " normal " conscious activities > > and experience. Until, eventually, all was as if assimilated > > into that inkly, implacably rich and deep background. > > And so it came to be that deep trance was *always the case*. > > > > When all that was done/experienced was as if in deep > > trance, then consciousness -- which was no longer needed to > > *do* anything -- became available to simply *apprehend*. > > And in so apprehending the *over-all movement* of the > > trance became more and more evident. This is maybe > > impossible to describe unless you already know first > > hand. But, for example, words spoken became evident as > > just a minor detail of a much larger movement. And that > > larger movement pertained not to a " person " ... the person > > was not a significant abstraction anymore. The larger > > movement was simply the undulation of silence within > > itself. > > > > So your notions of " behind " and " mirror " no longer apply > > at that stage. It is all very very fluid, with an > > unspeakable wholeness, utterly beyond and indifferent to > > the world-views of " people " . Complete within itself, it > > toils in the Unknown, Incomprehensible, reflecting deeper > > and deeper the profound luminence that emanates from its > > core. > > > > ....thanks for your description and explanations... > > it's clear, i wrote you recently, that everybody who is on the > path......make " experiences " .....again....and again.... > more and more.... > > if everybody would describe in detail his/her experiences in here..... > i think we would get mad in comparing all the > different " experiences " .......that everybody make..... > on the path > > there is only one path..... > just like there is only one being.... > ...on search for/from/by/in/over/behind/.....Itself > > what happen on the path....is delusion.....of being " this or that " ... > > what will remain...one day....is absolut nothingness..... > > infinite, changeless, timeless, formless > > this real nature is present....in every > appearing " movement " ....sure..... > > one who is in meditation state of mind....is conscious about the real > nature......which is present....here and now......in whatever > situation and movements.... > > the one " who " know the real nature.....don't need to prove it to > anybody...... > it's not necessary to describe It in endless words....... > > everybody is already everything.....no words about > > it's absurd to select people into knower of truth....and ignorant > people..... > > only fools don't " see " oneness in All > > greetings from/to/by yourself..... > > Marc > my interest was only to convey that the notions of " behind " and " mirror " that you expressed are not descriptions of " the way it is " . Perhaps you already saw it that way. There is no description of " the way it is " that is true. What unfolds is incredibly fluid, organic, fresh... there are no " patterns " that apply. None. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > > > > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the > > > > Actual... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > > > > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > > > > > > all is because of mind... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > > > > > > mind itelf can't see behind.... > > > > > > > > > > but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind > > > > > is *irrelevant*... > > > > > that is my whole point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes...i understood your point.... > > > > i expressed exactly the same with my words... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " what moves with silent > > > > > > > breadth and depth > > > > > > > beyond all considerations > > > > > > > mind has no grasp of... " > > > > > > > > > > > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > > > > > > " movement " is of mind only > > > > > > > > > > no... > > > > > the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " > > > > > > > > > > but that is not the only movement... > > > > > > > > > > > > don't know what " this something " would be... > > > > > > > > mind Is the movement > > > > > > > > (yes, it's possible to know that there is " something behind " > > > without > > > > movement....and even without any real relation to the movement of > > > > mind... > > > > the mirror itself has nothing to do with the reflected forms in > > > > it....it only let the forms appear....thats all) > > > > > > I think I see why you don't understand what I am > > > saying. And this is a very deep point. But here's > > > a stab: > > > > > > At one point I did experience a " silent background " > > > which had the quality of " something behind " such as > > > you describe. In terms of the notion of figure/ground, > > > it was the ground, and all thought, all " activity " in > > > consciousness was as illuminated forms against that > > > silent, implacable background. That background was > > > not conceptual... it was *real*. I won't try to explain > > > that, but it was utterly independent of whatever content > > > of consciousness. Sometimes that background would > > > " move in " and there would be utterly profound silence > > > and depth. Sometimes it would be moved " way out " , as > > > if in detached relation to " what was going on " . > > > > > > I should mention also that the " silent background " > > > had a distinct inky, almost tar-like quality. Whatever > > > was of consciousness that went into it simply dissolved. > > > It was like a " black hole " in that regard. > > > > > > Over time that silent background began more and more > > > to *seep in*, permeating what manifested as consciousness. > > > As it did so the flow of thought, speech, action -- whatever > > > was of consciousness -- took on more and more of a > > > *trance-like* quality. > > > > > > I said that even before that the background would sometimes > > > " move in " . When that happened it was as if in a profound > > > trance. As the background began to " seep in " the trance-like > > > quality began to pervade all " normal " conscious activities > > > and experience. Until, eventually, all was as if assimilated > > > into that inkly, implacably rich and deep background. > > > And so it came to be that deep trance was *always the case*. > > > > > > When all that was done/experienced was as if in deep > > > trance, then consciousness -- which was no longer needed to > > > *do* anything -- became available to simply *apprehend*. > > > And in so apprehending the *over-all movement* of the > > > trance became more and more evident. This is maybe > > > impossible to describe unless you already know first > > > hand. But, for example, words spoken became evident as > > > just a minor detail of a much larger movement. And that > > > larger movement pertained not to a " person " ... the person > > > was not a significant abstraction anymore. The larger > > > movement was simply the undulation of silence within > > > itself. > > > > > > So your notions of " behind " and " mirror " no longer apply > > > at that stage. It is all very very fluid, with an > > > unspeakable wholeness, utterly beyond and indifferent to > > > the world-views of " people " . Complete within itself, it > > > toils in the Unknown, Incomprehensible, reflecting deeper > > > and deeper the profound luminence that emanates from its > > > core. > > > > > > > ....thanks for your description and explanations... > > > > it's clear, i wrote you recently, that everybody who is on the > > path......make " experiences " .....again....and again.... > > more and more.... > > > > if everybody would describe in detail his/her experiences in here..... > > i think we would get mad in comparing all the > > different " experiences " .......that everybody make..... > > on the path > > > > there is only one path..... > > just like there is only one being.... > > ...on search for/from/by/in/over/behind/.....Itself > > > > what happen on the path....is delusion.....of being " this or that " ... > > > > what will remain...one day....is absolut nothingness..... > > > > infinite, changeless, timeless, formless > > > > this real nature is present....in every > > appearing " movement " ....sure..... > > > > one who is in meditation state of mind....is conscious about the real > > nature......which is present....here and now......in whatever > > situation and movements.... > > > > the one " who " know the real nature.....don't need to prove it to > > anybody...... > > it's not necessary to describe It in endless words....... > > > > everybody is already everything.....no words about > > > > it's absurd to select people into knower of truth....and ignorant > > people..... > > > > only fools don't " see " oneness in All > > > > greetings from/to/by yourself..... > > > > Marc > > > > my interest was only to convey that the notions > of " behind " and " mirror " that you expressed are not > descriptions of " the way it is " . > > Perhaps you already saw it that way. > > There is no description of " the way it is " that is true. > > What unfolds is incredibly fluid, organic, fresh... > > there are no " patterns " that apply. > > None. > > Bill Hi Bill, you seem to know so..... " the way it is " ....great.... there is no longer need to exchange some bubble then.... wish you a wonderful " unfold " of.....whatever.... Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > > > > > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of the > > > > > Actual... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > > > > > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > > > > > > > all is because of mind... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > > > > > > > mind itelf can't see behind.... > > > > > > > > > > > > but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind > > > > > > is *irrelevant*... > > > > > > that is my whole point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes...i understood your point.... > > > > > i expressed exactly the same with my words... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " what moves with silent > > > > > > > > breadth and depth > > > > > > > > beyond all considerations > > > > > > > > mind has no grasp of... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > > > > > > > " movement " is of mind only > > > > > > > > > > > > no... > > > > > > the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " > > > > > > > > > > > > but that is not the only movement... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't know what " this something " would be... > > > > > > > > > > mind Is the movement > > > > > > > > > > (yes, it's possible to know that there is " something behind " > > > > without > > > > > movement....and even without any real relation to the > movement of > > > > > mind... > > > > > the mirror itself has nothing to do with the reflected forms > in > > > > > it....it only let the forms appear....thats all) > > > > > > > > I think I see why you don't understand what I am > > > > saying. And this is a very deep point. But here's > > > > a stab: > > > > > > > > At one point I did experience a " silent background " > > > > which had the quality of " something behind " such as > > > > you describe. In terms of the notion of figure/ground, > > > > it was the ground, and all thought, all " activity " in > > > > consciousness was as illuminated forms against that > > > > silent, implacable background. That background was > > > > not conceptual... it was *real*. I won't try to explain > > > > that, but it was utterly independent of whatever content > > > > of consciousness. Sometimes that background would > > > > " move in " and there would be utterly profound silence > > > > and depth. Sometimes it would be moved " way out " , as > > > > if in detached relation to " what was going on " . > > > > > > > > I should mention also that the " silent background " > > > > had a distinct inky, almost tar-like quality. Whatever > > > > was of consciousness that went into it simply dissolved. > > > > It was like a " black hole " in that regard. > > > > > > > > Over time that silent background began more and more > > > > to *seep in*, permeating what manifested as consciousness. > > > > As it did so the flow of thought, speech, action -- whatever > > > > was of consciousness -- took on more and more of a > > > > *trance-like* quality. > > > > > > > > I said that even before that the background would sometimes > > > > " move in " . When that happened it was as if in a profound > > > > trance. As the background began to " seep in " the trance-like > > > > quality began to pervade all " normal " conscious activities > > > > and experience. Until, eventually, all was as if assimilated > > > > into that inkly, implacably rich and deep background. > > > > And so it came to be that deep trance was *always the case*. > > > > > > > > When all that was done/experienced was as if in deep > > > > trance, then consciousness -- which was no longer needed to > > > > *do* anything -- became available to simply *apprehend*. > > > > And in so apprehending the *over-all movement* of the > > > > trance became more and more evident. This is maybe > > > > impossible to describe unless you already know first > > > > hand. But, for example, words spoken became evident as > > > > just a minor detail of a much larger movement. And that > > > > larger movement pertained not to a " person " ... the person > > > > was not a significant abstraction anymore. The larger > > > > movement was simply the undulation of silence within > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > So your notions of " behind " and " mirror " no longer apply > > > > at that stage. It is all very very fluid, with an > > > > unspeakable wholeness, utterly beyond and indifferent to > > > > the world-views of " people " . Complete within itself, it > > > > toils in the Unknown, Incomprehensible, reflecting deeper > > > > and deeper the profound luminence that emanates from its > > > > core. > > > > > > > > > > ....thanks for your description and explanations... > > > > > > it's clear, i wrote you recently, that everybody who is on the > > > path......make " experiences " .....again....and again.... > > > more and more.... > > > > > > if everybody would describe in detail his/her experiences in > here..... > > > i think we would get mad in comparing all the > > > different " experiences " .......that everybody make..... > > > on the path > > > > > > there is only one path..... > > > just like there is only one being.... > > > ...on search for/from/by/in/over/behind/.....Itself > > > > > > what happen on the path....is delusion.....of being " this or > that " ... > > > > > > what will remain...one day....is absolut nothingness..... > > > > > > infinite, changeless, timeless, formless > > > > > > this real nature is present....in every > > > appearing " movement " ....sure..... > > > > > > one who is in meditation state of mind....is conscious about the > real > > > nature......which is present....here and now......in whatever > > > situation and movements.... > > > > > > the one " who " know the real nature.....don't need to prove it to > > > anybody...... > > > it's not necessary to describe It in endless words....... > > > > > > everybody is already everything.....no words about > > > > > > it's absurd to select people into knower of truth....and ignorant > > > people..... > > > > > > only fools don't " see " oneness in All > > > > > > greetings from/to/by yourself..... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > my interest was only to convey that the notions > > of " behind " and " mirror " that you expressed are not > > descriptions of " the way it is " . > > > > Perhaps you already saw it that way. > > > > There is no description of " the way it is " that is true. > > > > What unfolds is incredibly fluid, organic, fresh... > > > > there are no " patterns " that apply. > > > > None. > > > > Bill > > > Hi Bill, > > you seem to know so..... " the way it is " ....great.... > > there is no longer need to exchange some bubble then.... > > wish you a wonderful " unfold " of.....whatever.... > > Marc > > I said there is no " the way it is " . You say I seem to know " the way it is " . Why do you say that? Your words sound sarcastic. Were they intended to be? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <illusyn@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " > <illusyn@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....it's hard to get out of " individuality " .... > > > > > > > > > > you want some explanations....in order to " be " of > the > > > > > > Actual... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the " actual " ....just This here, and now....happen > > > > > > > > > > because there is a mind working..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " from the point-of-view of mind... > > > > > > > > > all is because of mind... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -yes...from the point of view of mind..... > > > > > > > > mind itelf can't see behind.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but Marc... point-of-view-of-mind > > > > > > > is *irrelevant*... > > > > > > > that is my whole point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes...i understood your point.... > > > > > > i expressed exactly the same with my words... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " what moves with silent > > > > > > > > > breadth and depth > > > > > > > > > beyond all considerations > > > > > > > > > mind has no grasp of... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -nothing realy " move " behond considerations..... > > > > > > > > " movement " is of mind only > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no... > > > > > > > the movement mind knows is the movement " of something " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but that is not the only movement... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't know what " this something " would be... > > > > > > > > > > > > mind Is the movement > > > > > > > > > > > > (yes, it's possible to know that there is " something > behind " > > > > > without > > > > > > movement....and even without any real relation to the > > movement of > > > > > > mind... > > > > > > the mirror itself has nothing to do with the reflected > forms > > in > > > > > > it....it only let the forms appear....thats all) > > > > > > > > > > I think I see why you don't understand what I am > > > > > saying. And this is a very deep point. But here's > > > > > a stab: > > > > > > > > > > At one point I did experience a " silent background " > > > > > which had the quality of " something behind " such as > > > > > you describe. In terms of the notion of figure/ground, > > > > > it was the ground, and all thought, all " activity " in > > > > > consciousness was as illuminated forms against that > > > > > silent, implacable background. That background was > > > > > not conceptual... it was *real*. I won't try to explain > > > > > that, but it was utterly independent of whatever content > > > > > of consciousness. Sometimes that background would > > > > > " move in " and there would be utterly profound silence > > > > > and depth. Sometimes it would be moved " way out " , as > > > > > if in detached relation to " what was going on " . > > > > > > > > > > I should mention also that the " silent background " > > > > > had a distinct inky, almost tar-like quality. Whatever > > > > > was of consciousness that went into it simply dissolved. > > > > > It was like a " black hole " in that regard. > > > > > > > > > > Over time that silent background began more and more > > > > > to *seep in*, permeating what manifested as consciousness. > > > > > As it did so the flow of thought, speech, action -- whatever > > > > > was of consciousness -- took on more and more of a > > > > > *trance-like* quality. > > > > > > > > > > I said that even before that the background would sometimes > > > > > " move in " . When that happened it was as if in a profound > > > > > trance. As the background began to " seep in " the trance-like > > > > > quality began to pervade all " normal " conscious activities > > > > > and experience. Until, eventually, all was as if assimilated > > > > > into that inkly, implacably rich and deep background. > > > > > And so it came to be that deep trance was *always the case*. > > > > > > > > > > When all that was done/experienced was as if in deep > > > > > trance, then consciousness -- which was no longer needed to > > > > > *do* anything -- became available to simply *apprehend*. > > > > > And in so apprehending the *over-all movement* of the > > > > > trance became more and more evident. This is maybe > > > > > impossible to describe unless you already know first > > > > > hand. But, for example, words spoken became evident as > > > > > just a minor detail of a much larger movement. And that > > > > > larger movement pertained not to a " person " ... the person > > > > > was not a significant abstraction anymore. The larger > > > > > movement was simply the undulation of silence within > > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > > > So your notions of " behind " and " mirror " no longer apply > > > > > at that stage. It is all very very fluid, with an > > > > > unspeakable wholeness, utterly beyond and indifferent to > > > > > the world-views of " people " . Complete within itself, it > > > > > toils in the Unknown, Incomprehensible, reflecting deeper > > > > > and deeper the profound luminence that emanates from its > > > > > core. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ....thanks for your description and explanations... > > > > > > > > it's clear, i wrote you recently, that everybody who is on the > > > > path......make " experiences " .....again....and again.... > > > > more and more.... > > > > > > > > if everybody would describe in detail his/her experiences in > > here..... > > > > i think we would get mad in comparing all the > > > > different " experiences " .......that everybody make..... > > > > on the path > > > > > > > > there is only one path..... > > > > just like there is only one being.... > > > > ...on search for/from/by/in/over/behind/.....Itself > > > > > > > > what happen on the path....is delusion.....of being " this or > > that " ... > > > > > > > > what will remain...one day....is absolut nothingness..... > > > > > > > > infinite, changeless, timeless, formless > > > > > > > > this real nature is present....in every > > > > appearing " movement " ....sure..... > > > > > > > > one who is in meditation state of mind....is conscious about > the > > real > > > > nature......which is present....here and now......in whatever > > > > situation and movements.... > > > > > > > > the one " who " know the real nature.....don't need to prove it > to > > > > anybody...... > > > > it's not necessary to describe It in endless words....... > > > > > > > > everybody is already everything.....no words about > > > > > > > > it's absurd to select people into knower of truth....and > ignorant > > > > people..... > > > > > > > > only fools don't " see " oneness in All > > > > > > > > greetings from/to/by yourself..... > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > my interest was only to convey that the notions > > > of " behind " and " mirror " that you expressed are not > > > descriptions of " the way it is " . > > > > > > Perhaps you already saw it that way. > > > > > > There is no description of " the way it is " that is true. > > > > > > What unfolds is incredibly fluid, organic, fresh... > > > > > > there are no " patterns " that apply. > > > > > > None. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > you seem to know so..... " the way it is " ....great.... > > > > there is no longer need to exchange some bubble then.... > > > > wish you a wonderful " unfold " of.....whatever.... > > > > Marc > > > > > I said there is no " the way it is " . > You say I seem to know " the way it is " . > Why do you say that? > > Your words sound sarcastic. Were they intended to be? > > Bill ..... " the way it is " ....maybe endless possible ways to " see " " the way it is " ......and also endless number of possible words to describe the one who tell about " the way it is " .....is telling about he/she is seeing " the way it is " ...... maybe we agree on the point that there is no way to express how exactly is the real " way it is " .... sorry if there were some misunderstanding.... Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 <snip> > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > you seem to know so..... " the way it is " ....great.... > > > > > > there is no longer need to exchange some bubble then.... > > > > > > wish you a wonderful " unfold " of.....whatever.... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > I said there is no " the way it is " . > > You say I seem to know " the way it is " . > > Why do you say that? > > > > Your words sound sarcastic. Were they intended to be? > > > > Bill > > > > .... " the way it is " ....maybe endless possible ways to " see " " the way > it is " ......and also endless number of possible words to describe > > the one who tell about " the way it is " .....is telling about he/she is > seeing " the way it is " ...... yes, good point many ways of using words also > maybe we agree on the point that there is no way to express how > exactly is the real " way it is " .... we seem to > sorry if there were some misunderstanding.... apparently there weren't, of which I am pleased Bill > Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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