Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 In a message dated 5/21/2006 11:57:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lastrain writes: > > Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > > >In a message dated 5/20/2006 10:51:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > >stuartkfmn writes: > > > >>>L.E: This is a reminder that mind is a creation of brain, which is a > >>creation > >>>of the cellular community called the human organism. And that ego, > >>person, > >>>or self, is the creation or expression of mind. Each level has no > >>independent > >>>existence of its own and relies on the supporting levels for its > >>apparent > >>>existence. No brain, no mind, no ego, person, or self. In this > >>sense there is > >>>the question of who or what is in control, and who or what is the > >>reality of the > >>>situation Most of these discussions see the problem and solution > >>within the > >>>realm of mind, and ignore the " neural network " of brain in and by > >>which this > >>>all occurrs. If you start with: 'I am the representative of a > >>commnity of > >>>cells and am authorized to defend, protect and enhance the survival > >>of my > >>>community, you will have this discussion from a more practical and > >>realistic place, > >>>and understand the nature of the I am state as to its purpose and > >>existence. > >>> > >>>Larry Epston > >>> > >>> > >> > >>From where I sit the concept of the " brain enlightenment " and the > >> " spiritual enlightenment " don't contradict each other:-) > >>So I can agree with your story and still believe in the story that we > >>take our spiritual mind with us from life to life:-) > >>The truth is to be found where those two stories point. > >>I personally love a paradox:-) > >>The paradox being that they don't point at anything... and that is > >>somehow comforting to me... > >> > >>Stu > >> > >>L.E: Perhaps enlightenment can be seen as becoming aware of the > levels > >>supporting one's own existence. The more levels you are aware of, > the more > >>enlightened you are. For instance, ego can become aware of mind, > and that is one > >>step of enlightment. Each level that the ego can integrate into > its own sense > >>of self is further enlightenment. Those whose sense of self > embraces the > >>whole of existence, the beyond, the absolute, are the most > enlightened. > > > >Larry Epston > >www.epston.com > > > >There lived in a land far away......a small group of shadows that > worshiped the sun. > > They believed that one day....with enough effort.. they could become > just like their god. > > toombaru > > L.E: Once there was an orange. And the skin of the orange came to believe > that it was a distinct and separate entity and didn't depend on anything or > anyone. It held this belief unitl the orange dried up and rotted and he was > ffinally silent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 5/22/06 L.E: To understand the relationship between the atoms and molecules, molecules and cells, or brain and mind, think of music being played from the CD. The music is not the CD disk or the player. There are no little midget musicians hiding on the surface of the disk, right? Yet, out of the relationship between the CD disk and the player, the music comes forth from your speakers. The music and the CD disk are quite different in their structure and nature. There is nothing in the music that is like the CD disk at all. The music is a completely different level of energy than the CD disk, yet is entirely dependent on it. The music cannot exist by itself without the CD disk. Such is the relationship of the ego, yourself, to the mind, and supporting mind, is the brain's neural cellular network, and that is supported by other level of organization, all the way down into the atoms, and into the emptiness of Space as Infinite Potential. So the cycle, or front and back, or yin and yang, is from emptiness to material and matter and back again into space or emptiness. That is what is going on: that is what is. And in the midst of that, this, process of life is you talking to yourself and others: apparent others. As you embrace all of this, you can sense yourself as the infinitely large and the infinitely small, and beyond all limitations of form and shape and back again from the universal into the particular, as you, and as I am. To the extent that you can embrace and understand, and feel, and know this, is the extent of your enlightenment, or Self-Realization. Larry Epston www.epston.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 What you say is a good an analogy, to an extent. The problem is it makes music dependent on a CD and and the player. If I am correct, this is analgous to saying that the mind is dependent on the brain. However, I have had a good number of experiences of " celestial music " . When I was having these experiences I was quite aware that a certain point they in no way depended on the brain. This music existed eternally and was always going on in some bardo or other, which I by Grace had happened to tune in to. So what was the " Source " of the music? It was Consciusness itself. The Music was itself " Mind " , It was Mind beyond the brain. Perhaps call it supermind or superconsciousness. whatever. The point is that it was not a brain state. All I am saying is that yes, some states of mind (mundane and relatively extraordinary) are brain states, but all states of mind simply cannot be reduced to brain states or dependent on the brain. The other thing is to do with feeling. The brain according to modern science is a completely non feeling organ. It is true. Science says it has no pain receptors for example (that is why a headache is never felt in the head but on the surface or in the bones of the cranium.) And science would completely scoff at any notion that there is pleasure in the brain. So let me ask you: Have you ever experienced a sate in the brain that was full of pleasure or bliss? I have many times. So I think science is full of poop on this. Science has only discovered the common state of the brain, but not the potential state of the brain. The brain is potential very pleasureful and ecstatic. The question is: Is even the most extraordinary state of the brain/mind enlightenment? I do not think so. For one thing, whenever I have had a strong feeling in the heart region, I noticed it was greater and more pleasureful (and definitely more loving) than any state I had ever experienced in the brain. And too, there seemed to be a great release of pressure when I had these experiences in the heart. I never felt motivated to pursue any other state. They seemed to contain an inherent freedom, whereas, the states of the brain always had some residual seeking to them. I also noticed I was far more accepting and less judgemental when the heart was freer. The ego in my opinion is more connected with the knot in the heart, than the knot in the head (though both seem pretty knotted up most of the time!). It is also interesting that Ramana called the Self, " Hridaya " , which translates as the heart. It is true, that by this heart he meant " that to which all else returns " , and he emphasized that this heart is not confined to any region of the body. But still, he certainly did not call the Self, " The Head " or " The Brain " . Nisargadatta and Ramana both stated that the primary sadhana was one of feelng, not of thinking. This to me is essential. Feeling is the connection to Self. And that feeling I do not associate with the brain/mind. Ultimately that feeling is not associated with any structure in the body. It is itself simply Self Nature. It is the coneection, the link, and eventaullly the goal itself. Shanti, Christo epston wrote: 5/22/06 L.E: To understand the relationship between the atoms and molecules, molecules and cells, or brain and mind, think of music being played from the CD. The music is not the CD disk or the player. There are no little midget musicians hiding on the surface of the disk, right? Yet, out of the relationship between the CD disk and the player, the music comes forth from your speakers. The music and the CD disk are quite different in their structure and nature. There is nothing in the music that is like the CD disk at all. The music is a completely different level of energy than the CD disk, yet is entirely dependent on it. The music cannot exist by itself without the CD disk. Such is the relationship of the ego, yourself, to the mind, and supporting mind, is the brain's neural cellular network, and that is supported by other level of organization, all the way down into the atoms, and into the emptiness of Space as Infinite Potential. So the cycle, or front and back, or yin and yang, is from emptiness to material and matter and back again into space or emptiness. That is what is going on: that is what is. And in the midst of that, this, process of life is you talking to yourself and others: apparent others. As you embrace all of this, you can sense yourself as the infinitely large and the infinitely small, and beyond all limitations of form and shape and back again from the universal into the particular, as you, and as I am. To the extent that you can embrace and understand, and feel, and know this, is the extent of your enlightenment, or Self-Realization. Larry Epston www.epston.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 5/21/2006 11:57:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > lastrain writes: > > > > > Nisargadatta , epston@ wrote: > > > > > >In a message dated 5/20/2006 10:51:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > >stuartkfmn@ writes: > > > > > >>>L.E: This is a reminder that mind is a creation of brain, which is a > > >>creation > > >>>of the cellular community called the human organism. And that ego, > > >>person, > > >>>or self, is the creation or expression of mind. Each level has no > > >>independent > > >>>existence of its own and relies on the supporting levels for its > > >>apparent > > >>>existence. No brain, no mind, no ego, person, or self. In this > > >>sense there is > > >>>the question of who or what is in control, and who or what is the > > >>reality of the > > >>>situation Most of these discussions see the problem and solution > > >>within the > > >>>realm of mind, and ignore the " neural network " of brain in and by > > >>which this > > >>>all occurrs. If you start with: 'I am the representative of a > > >>commnity of > > >>>cells and am authorized to defend, protect and enhance the survival > > >>of my > > >>>community, you will have this discussion from a more practical and > > >>realistic place, > > >>>and understand the nature of the I am state as to its purpose and > > >>existence. > > >>> > > >>>Larry Epston > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >>From where I sit the concept of the " brain enlightenment " and the > > >> " spiritual enlightenment " don't contradict each other:-) > > >>So I can agree with your story and still believe in the story that we > > >>take our spiritual mind with us from life to life:-) > > >>The truth is to be found where those two stories point. > > >>I personally love a paradox:-) > > >>The paradox being that they don't point at anything... and that is > > >>somehow comforting to me... > > >> > > >>Stu > > >> > > >>L.E: Perhaps enlightenment can be seen as becoming aware of the > > levels > > >>supporting one's own existence. The more levels you are aware of, > > the more > > >>enlightened you are. For instance, ego can become aware of mind, > > and that is one > > >>step of enlightment. Each level that the ego can integrate into > > its own sense > > >>of self is further enlightenment. Those whose sense of self > > embraces the > > >>whole of existence, the beyond, the absolute, are the most > > enlightened. > > > > > >Larry Epston > > >www.epston.com > > > > > >There lived in a land far away......a small group of shadows that > > worshiped the sun. > > > > They believed that one day....with enough effort.. they could become > > just like their god. > > > > toombaru > > > > L.E: Once there was an orange. And the skin of the orange came to believe > > that it was a distinct and separate entity and didn't depend on anything or > > anyone. It held this belief unitl the orange dried up and rotted and he was > > ffinally silent. I love dried fruit... J > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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