Relative and Absolute/To Dan

June 8, 2006

Hi Dan,

I was haunted by some earlier messages of yours that I felt

had elements worth expanding upon. So I went back through

some of your earlier messages and pulled out a number of

them that seemed interesting. The following is a take-off on

one of those.

Excerpt:

In terms of experience, there's a difference between transcended

(trance-ending) and being stuck (in a " me " trance).

...

So, in terms of experience, there is transcendence - you could call

it

the " dissolution of the stuck attempt at located self "

Yet, in absolute terms, there is no transcendence required or

possible, no self was ever located which could be trancended.

The absolute and the relative, that which is beyond experience, and

experience -- are not two.

-Dan

~~~~~~~~~

I think your point was to address the argument: There is

no such thing as " transcendence " because there is no one to

do the transcending and nothing to be transcended. And I think

you addressed that effectively.

But teasing apart the fibers in what you wrote (studying the

entrails as it were) something interesting came out of it for

me.

You speak of " the absolute... that which is beyond experience, "

and I wondered if there really is such a thing.

Since there cannot be absolute experience, is not " the absolute...

that which is beyond experience " not really only a concept?

What struck me as interesting is that when experience does

transcend the " stuck attempt at located self " there is a *sense

of absoluteness* about it in contrast to the stuckedness.

When the " located self " is transcended... there is absence of any

" particular " , nothing stays still, nothing is specific...

it is very fluid and alive. Such experience, then, can seem to

be absolute in nature because nothing qualifies it... like looking

at running water, there is the appearance of form, but there is

no particular form. So when the " located self " is transcended

the absence of any particular creates a sense of " generalness "

to the experience, which can be readily construed as " absolute "

in nature.

But it is not absolute, it is still happening in time; it is simply

not tied down to particular qualities.

Regarding the matter of time:

Case 1:

When experience is *mediated by mental activity* then that is a

sense of " time " as experience ratchets from state to state and

a sense of sequentiality ensues. This would correspond to experience

as per the " located self " .

Case 2:

When experience is not mediated by mental activity, when the

" local self " is transcended such that what transpires is fluid,

open, free... what occurs still is technically within time, but

the " sense of time " is no longer present.

It seems that the second case is still in time but *seems to be*

beyond time because it does not have the sense of " sequential

time " as in Case 1. Experience as in Case 2 seems absolute

relative to Case 1. But Case 2 is not " the absolute... that which

is beyond experience. "

And I don't see that what is " beyond experience " as really being

of any interest to us. It is an idea that never has any bearing

for us.

So then, looking at your statements:

Yet, in absolute terms, there is no transcendence required or

possible, no self was ever located which could be trancended.

Note that even in Case 2 there is no " self " which is located.

The absolute and the relative, that which is beyond experience,

and experience -- are not two.

The not-twoness of absolute and relative is not a signficant concern

for us, because " that which is beyond experience " is never the case.

I am quite intrigued by the new way of looking at absolute and

relative as described above. I hope my exposition of it is clear

enough. And I am quite interested in what you think.

Do we sometimes use " absolute " to refer to experience as in

Case 2?

Is perhaps the term " absolute " in fact an appropriate one for

experience as in Case 2?

etc.

Bill

June 9, 2006

L.E: Spinning spinning, they hop from strand to strand,

Lost as the sunlight strikes

In dazzling diamonds of reflection .

They know their way around the web,

The rest is lost in darkness,

As they stay close to home.

Lost in self-congradulations

About their certitude

And endless explanations

Of how it all works.

pliantheart <pliantheart

Nisargadatta

Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:51:25 -0000