Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Attention is noumenon ? > > > > > > Wow ! You seem to know the noumenon to make such statemet. > > > > > > Werner > > > > Call it a conjecture, Werner. > > But if attention is truly what shapes > > experience, if it is the " carving knife " > > in the " fluid ice of consciousness " > > (I'm being metaphorical, hope you get > > what I mean), then attention is > > effectively noumenon, is it not? > > > > Bill > > > > Oops, metaphorical ? What is that ? Is it using an example to explain > what cannot get explained ? > > Ok, I have no need for metaphors, I cannot follow you in either case. > Why don't you just forget noumenon and leave it alone ? > > Don't misunderstand me Bil. I like all you posts, but most of them I > don't understand > > Werner LOL! OK... forget noumenon. We didn't really need it anyway. Does it make sense to you that the flow of attention shapes the nature of your experience? It can seem that the character of your experience is due to the content... if the apple is sweet then the taste is sweet and it is a sweet experience, etc. But have you noticed how the movement of attention can have a powerful effect on the character of experience? Cuz considering your comments I can see that what I wrote was a bit too condensed (as in *way too condensed*). So thanks, you've helped me to pull out that one important thread: the effect of attention on experience. What do you think, Werner? Is the effect of attention on experience minor or profound? Bill > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Attention is noumenon. > > > > Noumenon is attention. > > > > > > > > Attention is movement that writes > > > > And its ink is the light of experience. > > > > > > > > Attention writes in dazzling color > > > > Vivid fluence > > > > Bright wonder > > > > Feeding on its own rapturous display. > > > > > > > > Attention is not the display > > > > but rather the " hidden hand " > > > > that moves the puppet show. > > > > > > > > Attenion is noumenon. > > > > Noumenon is attention. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > (3-05) > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Oops, metaphorical ? What is that ? Is it using an example to > explain > > what cannot get explained ? > > > > Ok, I have no need for metaphors, I cannot follow you in either > case. > > Why don't you just forget noumenon and leave it alone ? > > > > Don't misunderstand me Bil. I like all you posts, but most of them > I > > don't understand > > > > Werner > > LOL! > > OK... forget noumenon. > We didn't really need it anyway. > > Does it make sense to you that the > flow of attention shapes the nature of > your experience? > > It can seem that the character of your > experience is due to the content... > if the apple is sweet then the taste is > sweet and it is a sweet experience, etc. > > But have you noticed how the movement of > attention can have a powerful effect on > the character of experience? > > Cuz considering your comments I can see that > what I wrote was a bit too condensed (as in > *way too condensed*). > > So thanks, you've helped me to pull out that > one important thread: the effect of attention > on experience. > > What do you think, Werner? Is the effect of > attention on experience minor or profound? > > Bill > > Bill, How should I answer that ? I never payed attention to attention. Ok, attention is focussing and therefore exclusive and I can ímagine that focussing can create a different experience than not focussing. But during the day so many experiences are passing that I cannot tell which of them were with or without attention. And I also must tell you that this topic of attention doesn't let me jerk very much. Hearing a blackbird singing outside on the roof catches my attention more but not the attention itself. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Oops, metaphorical ? What is that ? Is it using an example to > > explain > > > what cannot get explained ? > > > > > > Ok, I have no need for metaphors, I cannot follow you in either > > case. > > > Why don't you just forget noumenon and leave it alone ? > > > > > > Don't misunderstand me Bil. I like all you posts, but most of > them > > I > > > don't understand > > > > > > Werner > > > > > LOL! > > > > OK... forget noumenon. > > We didn't really need it anyway. > > > > Does it make sense to you that the > > flow of attention shapes the nature of > > your experience? > > > > It can seem that the character of your > > experience is due to the content... > > if the apple is sweet then the taste is > > sweet and it is a sweet experience, etc. > > > > But have you noticed how the movement of > > attention can have a powerful effect on > > the character of experience? > > > > Cuz considering your comments I can see that > > what I wrote was a bit too condensed (as in > > *way too condensed*). > > > > So thanks, you've helped me to pull out that > > one important thread: the effect of attention > > on experience. > > > > What do you think, Werner? Is the effect of > > attention on experience minor or profound? > > > > Bill > > > > > > Bill, > > How should I answer that ? I never payed attention to attention. > > Ok, attention is focussing and therefore exclusive and I can ímagine > that focussing can create a different experience than not focussing. > > But during the day so many experiences are passing that I cannot tell > which of them were with or without attention. > > And I also must tell you that this topic of attention doesn't let me > jerk very much. Hearing a blackbird singing outside on the roof > catches my attention more but not the attention itself. > > Werner > OK, you're off the hook. But I did neglect a detail when explaining attention before... " focus " is attention, but " attention " is not necessarily focus. In other words, the notion of attention is more general, more broad that that of focus. So when " not focusing " there is still attention because there is still that which you notice. It won't be as " focused " ... but you don't become unconscious when you " don't focus " ... you are still aware. Bill PS: It can be interesting to observe how your attention moves without trying to change it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Oops, metaphorical ? What is that ? Is it using an example to > > > explain > > > > what cannot get explained ? > > > > > > > > Ok, I have no need for metaphors, I cannot follow you in either > > > case. > > > > Why don't you just forget noumenon and leave it alone ? > > > > > > > > Don't misunderstand me Bil. I like all you posts, but most of > > them > > > I > > > > don't understand > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > > OK... forget noumenon. > > > We didn't really need it anyway. > > > > > > Does it make sense to you that the > > > flow of attention shapes the nature of > > > your experience? > > > > > > It can seem that the character of your > > > experience is due to the content... > > > if the apple is sweet then the taste is > > > sweet and it is a sweet experience, etc. > > > > > > But have you noticed how the movement of > > > attention can have a powerful effect on > > > the character of experience? > > > > > > Cuz considering your comments I can see that > > > what I wrote was a bit too condensed (as in > > > *way too condensed*). > > > > > > So thanks, you've helped me to pull out that > > > one important thread: the effect of attention > > > on experience. > > > > > > What do you think, Werner? Is the effect of > > > attention on experience minor or profound? > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > How should I answer that ? I never payed attention to attention. > > > > Ok, attention is focussing and therefore exclusive and I can ímagine > > that focussing can create a different experience than not focussing. > > > > But during the day so many experiences are passing that I cannot tell > > which of them were with or without attention. > > > > And I also must tell you that this topic of attention doesn't let me > > jerk very much. Hearing a blackbird singing outside on the roof > > catches my attention more but not the attention itself. > > > > Werner > > > > OK, you're off the hook. > > But I did neglect a detail when explaining attention > before... " focus " is attention, but " attention " is > not necessarily focus. In other words, the notion of > attention is more general, more broad that that of > focus. > > So when " not focusing " there is still attention > because there is still that which you notice. > It won't be as " focused " ... but you don't become > unconscious when you " don't focus " ... you are > still aware. > > Bill > > PS: It can be interesting to observe how your > attention moves without trying to change it at > all. > attention is all there is open attention sometimes appear to close...in focusing on an object.. and when this happens the open whole-attention, is delayed by the part-focusing... ....iietsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Nisargadatta , " iietsa " <iietsa wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " > <pliantheart@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Oops, metaphorical ? What is that ? Is it using an example > to > > > > explain > > > > > what cannot get explained ? > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I have no need for metaphors, I cannot follow you in > either > > > > case. > > > > > Why don't you just forget noumenon and leave it alone ? > > > > > > > > > > Don't misunderstand me Bil. I like all you posts, but most > of > > > them > > > > I > > > > > don't understand > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > > > > OK... forget noumenon. > > > > We didn't really need it anyway. > > > > > > > > Does it make sense to you that the > > > > flow of attention shapes the nature of > > > > your experience? > > > > > > > > It can seem that the character of your > > > > experience is due to the content... > > > > if the apple is sweet then the taste is > > > > sweet and it is a sweet experience, etc. > > > > > > > > But have you noticed how the movement of > > > > attention can have a powerful effect on > > > > the character of experience? > > > > > > > > Cuz considering your comments I can see that > > > > what I wrote was a bit too condensed (as in > > > > *way too condensed*). > > > > > > > > So thanks, you've helped me to pull out that > > > > one important thread: the effect of attention > > > > on experience. > > > > > > > > What do you think, Werner? Is the effect of > > > > attention on experience minor or profound? > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > How should I answer that ? I never payed attention to attention. > > > > > > Ok, attention is focussing and therefore exclusive and I can > ímagine > > > that focussing can create a different experience than not > focussing. > > > > > > But during the day so many experiences are passing that I cannot > tell > > > which of them were with or without attention. > > > > > > And I also must tell you that this topic of attention doesn't > let me > > > jerk very much. Hearing a blackbird singing outside on the roof > > > catches my attention more but not the attention itself. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > OK, you're off the hook. > > > > But I did neglect a detail when explaining attention > > before... " focus " is attention, but " attention " is > > not necessarily focus. In other words, the notion of > > attention is more general, more broad that that of > > focus. > > > > So when " not focusing " there is still attention > > because there is still that which you notice. > > It won't be as " focused " ... but you don't become > > unconscious when you " don't focus " ... you are > > still aware. > > > > Bill > > > > PS: It can be interesting to observe how your > > attention moves without trying to change it at > > all. > > > attention is all there is > open attention sometimes appear to close...in focusing on an object.. > and when this happens the open whole-attention, is delayed by the > part-focusing... > ...iietsa > and the notion of " opening of attention... " the image of a flower opening to the sun Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " iietsa " <iietsa@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " > > <pliantheart@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Oops, metaphorical ? What is that ? Is it using an example > > to > > > > > explain > > > > > > what cannot get explained ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I have no need for metaphors, I cannot follow you in > > either > > > > > case. > > > > > > Why don't you just forget noumenon and leave it alone ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't misunderstand me Bil. I like all you posts, but most > > of > > > > them > > > > > I > > > > > > don't understand > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > > > > > > OK... forget noumenon. > > > > > We didn't really need it anyway. > > > > > > > > > > Does it make sense to you that the > > > > > flow of attention shapes the nature of > > > > > your experience? > > > > > > > > > > It can seem that the character of your > > > > > experience is due to the content... > > > > > if the apple is sweet then the taste is > > > > > sweet and it is a sweet experience, etc. > > > > > > > > > > But have you noticed how the movement of > > > > > attention can have a powerful effect on > > > > > the character of experience? > > > > > > > > > > Cuz considering your comments I can see that > > > > > what I wrote was a bit too condensed (as in > > > > > *way too condensed*). > > > > > > > > > > So thanks, you've helped me to pull out that > > > > > one important thread: the effect of attention > > > > > on experience. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think, Werner? Is the effect of > > > > > attention on experience minor or profound? > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > How should I answer that ? I never payed attention to attention. > > > > > > > > Ok, attention is focussing and therefore exclusive and I can > > ímagine > > > > that focussing can create a different experience than not > > focussing. > > > > > > > > But during the day so many experiences are passing that I cannot > > tell > > > > which of them were with or without attention. > > > > > > > > And I also must tell you that this topic of attention doesn't > > let me > > > > jerk very much. Hearing a blackbird singing outside on the roof > > > > catches my attention more but not the attention itself. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > OK, you're off the hook. > > > > > > But I did neglect a detail when explaining attention > > > before... " focus " is attention, but " attention " is > > > not necessarily focus. In other words, the notion of > > > attention is more general, more broad that that of > > > focus. > > > > > > So when " not focusing " there is still attention > > > because there is still that which you notice. > > > It won't be as " focused " ... but you don't become > > > unconscious when you " don't focus " ... you are > > > still aware. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > PS: It can be interesting to observe how your > > > attention moves without trying to change it at > > > all. > > > > > attention is all there is > > open attention sometimes appear to close...in focusing on an object.. > > and when this happens the open whole-attention, is delayed by the > > part-focusing... > > ...iietsa > > > > and the notion of " opening of attention... " > > the image of a flower > > opening to the sun > > > Bill > Oh Bill, You and your metaphors. I recognize the artist, the poet. How do you know that the opening of the flower to the sun is attention ? Is it because attention is your favorite notion ? How about this: Each plant is prayer to the sun ? But now this: The opening of the flower is a photo-chemical reaction ? Argh, isn't it ? Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > > and the notion of " opening of attention... " > > > > the image of a flower > > > > opening to the sun > > > > > > Bill > > > > Oh Bill, > > You and your metaphors. I recognize the artist, the poet. > > How do you know that the opening of the flower to the sun is > attention ? Is it because attention is your favorite notion ? > > How about this: Each plant is prayer to the sun ? > > But now this: The opening of the flower is a photo-chemical > reaction ? Argh, isn't it ? > > Werner A flower opens to the sun ... .... as a greedy beggar opens a bag to scoop in crumbs. Each flower attempts to rise higher to block out the sun from the smaller flowers below. Weeds come to see if they can steal nourishment and block out the big flowers. Then, locusts come and eats the flowers. And a bird comes and eats the locusts. Ah, the greed of natural beings! What a symphony of lust and hunger is nature! And how humans open their attention when they think there is something in it for them. And how they close it off if they are pretty sure they have nothing to gain! -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " iietsa " <iietsa@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " > > > <pliantheart@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oops, metaphorical ? What is that ? Is it using an > example > > > to > > > > > > explain > > > > > > > what cannot get explained ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I have no need for metaphors, I cannot follow you in > > > either > > > > > > case. > > > > > > > Why don't you just forget noumenon and leave it alone ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't misunderstand me Bil. I like all you posts, but > most > > > of > > > > > them > > > > > > I > > > > > > > don't understand > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > > > > > > > > OK... forget noumenon. > > > > > > We didn't really need it anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does it make sense to you that the > > > > > > flow of attention shapes the nature of > > > > > > your experience? > > > > > > > > > > > > It can seem that the character of your > > > > > > experience is due to the content... > > > > > > if the apple is sweet then the taste is > > > > > > sweet and it is a sweet experience, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > But have you noticed how the movement of > > > > > > attention can have a powerful effect on > > > > > > the character of experience? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cuz considering your comments I can see that > > > > > > what I wrote was a bit too condensed (as in > > > > > > *way too condensed*). > > > > > > > > > > > > So thanks, you've helped me to pull out that > > > > > > one important thread: the effect of attention > > > > > > on experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think, Werner? Is the effect of > > > > > > attention on experience minor or profound? > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > How should I answer that ? I never payed attention to > attention. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, attention is focussing and therefore exclusive and I can > > > ímagine > > > > > that focussing can create a different experience than not > > > focussing. > > > > > > > > > > But during the day so many experiences are passing that I > cannot > > > tell > > > > > which of them were with or without attention. > > > > > > > > > > And I also must tell you that this topic of attention doesn't > > > let me > > > > > jerk very much. Hearing a blackbird singing outside on the > roof > > > > > catches my attention more but not the attention itself. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, you're off the hook. > > > > > > > > But I did neglect a detail when explaining attention > > > > before... " focus " is attention, but " attention " is > > > > not necessarily focus. In other words, the notion of > > > > attention is more general, more broad that that of > > > > focus. > > > > > > > > So when " not focusing " there is still attention > > > > because there is still that which you notice. > > > > It won't be as " focused " ... but you don't become > > > > unconscious when you " don't focus " ... you are > > > > still aware. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > PS: It can be interesting to observe how your > > > > attention moves without trying to change it at > > > > all. > > > > > > > attention is all there is > > > open attention sometimes appear to close...in focusing on an > object.. > > > and when this happens the open whole-attention, is delayed by the > > > part-focusing... > > > ...iietsa > > > > > > > and the notion of " opening of attention... " > > > > the image of a flower > > > > opening to the sun > > > > > > Bill > > > > Oh Bill, > > You and your metaphors. I recognize the artist, the poet. > > How do you know that the opening of the flower to the sun is > attention ? Is it because attention is your favorite notion ? > > How about this: Each plant is prayer to the sun ? > > But now this: The opening of the flower is a photo-chemical > reaction ? Argh, isn't it ? > > Werner > why do you say Argh! The opening of attention is a chemical process too, I suppose. Really would have to be, wouldn't it? Aren't we just chemical processes here squirting our " virtual juices " back and forth, what you write activating some chemicals here and then back again? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > and the notion of " opening of attention... " > > > > > > the image of a flower > > > > > > opening to the sun > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > Oh Bill, > > > > You and your metaphors. I recognize the artist, the poet. > > > > How do you know that the opening of the flower to the sun is > > attention ? Is it because attention is your favorite notion ? > > > > How about this: Each plant is prayer to the sun ? > > > > But now this: The opening of the flower is a photo-chemical > > reaction ? Argh, isn't it ? > > > > Werner > > A flower opens to the sun ... > > ... as a greedy beggar opens a bag to scoop in crumbs. > > Each flower attempts to rise higher to block out the sun from the > smaller flowers below. > > Weeds come to see if they can steal nourishment and block out the big > flowers. > > Then, locusts come and eats the flowers. > > And a bird comes and eats the locusts. > > Ah, the greed of natural beings! > > What a symphony of lust and hunger is nature! > > And how humans open their attention when they think there is something > in it for them. > > And how they close it off if they are pretty sure they have nothing to > gain! > > -- Dan > what an interesting way to look at our posts here! each message another flower, clamboring for attention over the others... " here, me! me!, look at me! " each one seems to cry. ) Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 [...] > what an interesting way to look at our posts here! > > each message another flower, clamboring for attention > over the others... > > " here, me! me!, look at me! " each one seems to cry. > > ) Ultimately, I am all that I can know. ~ Katie. > > Bill > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.