Guest guest Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 On Jul 3, 2006, at 4:47 PM, adithya_comming wrote: > NonDualPhil , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming wrote: >> >> [...] >> >>> nisargadatta: >>> In his own words, >>> " When I met my Guru, he told me, 'You are not what you take >> yourself >>> to be. Find out what you are. Watch the sense I AM, find your > real >>> Self...' I did as he told me. All my spare time I would spend >>> looking at myself in silence...and what a difference it made, > and >>> how soon! It took me only three years to realize my true > nature. " >>> >>> it took him only three years to realize his true nature.... >>> >>> how did you realize your true nature ? >>> >> >> >> A: If there is a real objective way to >> measure that Nisargadatta [or someone >> else] realized/achieved something that >> others didn't only then the question of >> realization can be answered in any real >> way. >> >> Do you know of any such way? P: Since you are asking the question, you should start by defining what realization is to you. But let's start by saying that no matter what you think it is, you must agree it's a subjective something. or other. And is there any objective way to measure anything subjective. Can anyone objectively measure your sadness, or your pleasure? How can I be sure you see red exactly as I do? >> >> A: If not... talk of " realization " just >> remains mere 'talk', stories, speculation, >> mental dreams and fantasies. >> >> For all we know, Nisargadatta himself >> might have been mistaken, wrong fantasizing or >> even 'lying'. >> >> How do I know that Nisargadatta was " realized " ? P: What I know, is that reading his words changed my life for the better, not only mine but many others. If you ever have made the life of anyone better, then you changed the world in a small measure. That is not a small thing, better, imo, than to have the highest realization, and to stay in a cave by yourself. > A: If 'professional' 'gurus' like Adyashanti, Gangaji, > Tolle, Katie, Ramesh, Kalkie, Sai Baba, Sailor Bob, > Adi da let imaprtial, neutral scientists observe and > examine their mental state, body, brain > in an objective way and on regular intervals for an > extended time - only then, we might have some > " objective " way to know what " realization " is. > > Until then, it will remain just " talk " ... P: If they did that, we'll only know how their brain's activity looks in a catscan, or any other machine, and what those activities have in common. It won't tells how they feel, or how can we get to be like them. > A: It is my experience that I don't have a 'constant' > mental state. I am neither always peaceful, nor always > full of love, nor always perfectly happy! > Sometimes I am as if in the state of deep dreamless > sleep while awake, other times I am frantic. Sometimes > I am even scared and holding onto my breath thinking > that I don't 'consciously' breathe I might die. P: Well, Arvin, I'm not loving or happy all the time either, although I'm never frantic. I guess the difference between us is that I don't mind not feeling happy or loving, when I don't. I know there is no " me " to hold to any feeling, so they come and go without staying long. Impermanence is FINE. I love it! > > > A: When I look at many pictures of Ramana - he too > doesn't look perfectly happy, clam in every picture > of his. > > When I hear stories of gurus from their close > associates - I hear the incidence to common > human emotions that occur in other humans > too. > > Based on this data, realization as in " always > happy " or " always peaceful " looks false or > at least 'not yet achieved by any human'. P: Always happy, always anything, would have no meaning. To feel happy, you need to be sad sometimes. Is not what it is felt, but the empty center through which those feelings float without sticking around like clouds through a summer sky, which is the core of realization. And how do you, objectively, measure that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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