Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 [...] > >> A: If there is a real objective way to > >> measure that Nisargadatta [or someone > >> else] realized/achieved something that > >> others didn't only then the question of > >> realization can be answered in any real > >> way. > >> > >> Do you know of any such way? > > P: Since you are asking the question, > you should start by defining what realization > is to you. I am looking for some kind of " common " definition. Based on my own experience, my definition is that in a human life, " realization " and " un-realization [ignorance] " is an on-going process and not an one time event that happens and a human is permanently transformed. In my experience, for a " human " , permanent transformation NEVER happens. As time passes [with continued 'effortless' practice] - you just get " good " at it and it becomes easier and easier, simpler and simpler and you start acting in the world without having to leave " realization " . But, there is no point where you are permanently transformed. There is no point where the 'potential' for ignorance dies. > But let's start by saying that no > matter what you think it is, you must agree > it's a subjective something. or other. And is there > any objective way to measure anything > subjective. I am beginning to see that as " subject " humans are not that different from each other and that's why it is possible to somewhat objectively define 'subjective' things like - beauty, happiness, sadness, elegance, order, chaos, noise, music. I think meditation, " realization " , 'nirvana', 'samadhi' are NOT that different. > Can anyone objectively measure > your sadness, or your pleasure? I am beginning to see that 'subjective' and 'objective' are not as different as we/I used to believe they were. What happens at 'subjective' [feelings, thought] level changes the 'objective' [brain waves, heart rate, heart rhythm, breathing rate, breathing rhythm] and vice-versa. When we consume 'objects' such as alcohol, drugs, chocolate or breathe sandal or roses or a female body - it changes something at subjective level in thoughts, feelings, emotions; a change which is again detectable via secretion of hormones and changes in breathing, heart rate, brain waves and many other 'objective' symptoms. I am beginning to see that in the same way that 'energy is matter' and 'mater is energy' perhaps, 'subjective is objective' and 'objective is subjective' 'Pleasure', 'sadness' in many cases might simply be a matter of measuring the presence of certain hormones in the blood. In many cases, measuring the heart rate, breathing rhythm, brain waves too give quite an accurate indication of the 'state of mind'. > How can I > be sure you see red exactly as I do? " You " or " I " can never be sure. Only a scientific instrument can tell that what happened 'inside you' was same [or different] than what happened 'inside me'. As it tells us that my and your heart pumps blood the same way, beats at similar rate and our brain emits same/similar waves while sleeping. But " you " or " I " can never know it directly by ourselves and thus, we can not be sure. > > >> > >> A: If not... talk of " realization " just > >> remains mere 'talk', stories, speculation, > >> mental dreams and fantasies. > >> > >> For all we know, Nisargadatta himself > >> might have been mistaken, wrong fantasizing or > >> even 'lying'. > >> > >> How do I know that Nisargadatta was " realized " ? > > P: What I know, is that reading his words changed > my life for the better, not only mine but many others. I can believe that. And, I can respect that. > If you ever have made the life of anyone better, then > you changed the world in a small measure. I agree to that. > That is > not a small thing, better, imo, than to have the highest > realization, and to stay in a cave by yourself. Yes, I can see the value in your point here. > > > A: If 'professional' 'gurus' like Adyashanti, Gangaji, > > Tolle, Katie, Ramesh, Kalkie, Sai Baba, Sailor Bob, > > Adi da let imaprtial, neutral scientists observe and > > examine their mental state, body, brain > > in an objective way and on regular intervals for an > > extended time - only then, we might have some > > " objective " way to know what " realization " is. > > > > Until then, it will remain just " talk " ... > > P: If they did that, we'll only know how their brain's > activity looks in a catscan, or any other machine, > and what those activities have in common. It won't > tells how they feel, or how can we get to be like them. I think it can tell us all these things. I think it can tell us 'how they feel' and 'how can we get to be like them' after all this is what science is all about. However, I am not saying that science can do it tomorrow... It might take some [or great] time but science definitely has potential to demystify it to a great degree. > > > A: It is my experience that I don't have a 'constant' > > mental state. I am neither always peaceful, nor always > > full of love, nor always perfectly happy! > > Sometimes I am as if in the state of deep dreamless > > sleep while awake, other times I am frantic. Sometimes > > I am even scared and holding onto my breath thinking > > that I don't 'consciously' breathe I might die. > > P: Well, Arvind, I'm not loving or happy all the time > either, although I'm never frantic. Frantic has many meanings including 'worried', uptight, anxious. > I guess the difference > between us is that I don't mind not feeling happy or loving, > when I don't. I noticed that sometimes 'I mind' and sometimes 'I don't mind'. And, I noticed that sometimes 'minding' and 'not minding' happens on its own without me wanting to mind or not. > I know there is no " me " to hold to any feeling, > so they come and go without staying long. Impermanence > is FINE. I love it! Well... sometimes, I love 'impermanence' of 'mental states', sometimes I don't. And, I notice that I can not be 'angry', 'sad', 'irritated', worried and LOVE it at the same time. I noticed that when I LOVE the state I am in - it starts changing and transforms into " love " ! > > > > > > A: When I look at many pictures of Ramana - he too > > doesn't look perfectly happy, clam in every picture > > of his. > > > > When I hear stories of gurus from their close > > associates - I hear the incidence to common > > human emotions that occur in other humans > > too. > > > > Based on this data, realization as in " always > > happy " or " always peaceful " looks false or > > at least 'not yet achieved by any human'. > > P: Always happy, always anything, would have > no meaning. To feel happy, you need to be sad > sometimes. I am not sure if that is necessarily true. > Is not what it is felt, but the empty > center through which those feelings float without > sticking around like clouds through a summer sky, > which is the core of realization. Is that your definition of " realization " ? > And how do you, > objectively, measure that? I am sure it " can be " measured. I notice that there is great feeling difference between when I form an 'attachment' [try to make something 'stick'] and when I stay impartial, detached, dispassionate [not trying to make anything 'stick' or not]. I also notice that soon after I stay dispassionate, my thoughts start becoming less frequent, the gap between thoughts starts increasing, I start feeling peaceful and my heart beat and breathing pattern starts changing too. I am sure some changes might be taking place at the brain wave level too. All these things can surely be measured and with more advances in science many other things that might be going on can be measured too. What you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 snip - > > > Is not what it is felt, but the empty > > center through which those feelings float without > > sticking around like clouds through a summer sky, > > which is the core of realization. > This seems like a true definition of awakening to me. Nothing sticks, things do not fixate floating awareness. Stuart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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