[NonDualPhil] Realization / Pete.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote:

>

> >>>>

> >>

> >> P: Since you are asking the question,

> >> you should start by defining what realization

> >> is to you.

> >

> > A: I am looking for some kind of " common "

> > definition. Based on my own experience,

> > my definition is that in a human life,

> > " realization " and " un-realization [ignorance] "

> > is an on-going process and not an one time

> > event that happens and a human is permanently

> > transformed.

>

> P: Arvind, Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, education,

> tact, or sensitivity to another's feelings. I guess If you

> use it in connection with realization, then you're referring

> to unawareness of numen.

 

" Ignorance " that I am referring to here is the

our/human tendency to confuse our reality

to be 'ego self'. By ignorance I mean our

tendency to form an attachment to our " thought

self " .

 

By ongoing process I mean that this

'ability' to form attachment survives

even after seeing falsity of the " thought image " .

 

 

BTW... what do you mean by " numen " ?

 

> Once numen informs our life, and

> the vacuity of self is felt, this could be called realization.

>

> That realization doesn't meanthat a state of immutability has

> been reached. Change is the very nature of manifestation.

 

I agree.

 

 

> >

> > A: In my experience, for a " human " , permanent

> > transformation NEVER happens. As time passes

> > [with continued 'effortless' practice] - you

> > just get " good " at it and it becomes easier

> > and easier, simpler and simpler and you start

> > acting in the world without having to leave

> > " realization " .

>

> P: " Without having to leave realization " gives

> the impression that realization is something concrete

> that one can arrive and depart from like an airport.

 

I am talking it in terms of a 'process' like 'thinking'

and 'not thinking', 'conceptualizing' or

'not conceptualizing'.

 

By not having to leave realization I mean

acting in the world without forming an

attachment to the thought image of self.

 

By leaving realization I mean getting

lost in identification with thought self

again when while deal in various aspects

of life.

 

To me, [after initial realization], crux

of the practice is to learn and integrate the

first one [ " acting in the world without

forming an attachment to the thought image

of self " ].

 

 

> Realization is something like puberty, something at

> the same time irreversible, and yet one can still act

> and feel like a child at times.

 

Puberty is certainly irreversible in my definition.

Even if you " act " again like a child you are never

really a child as far as the body and brain is

concerned.

 

But, realization in my experience applies

to mind and mind keeps most of its capacities

intact though it might become increasingly

easier to act one way [such as in 'meditative'

way] one that way is exercised long enough.

 

>

> >

> > A: But, there is no point where you are

> > permanently transformed. There is no point

> > where the 'potential' for ignorance dies.

>

> P: Permanently transformed in what way? Aging

> is permanently transforming your body and mind,

> so can realization, but that doesn't mean change stops,

> or bliss is glued to the brain. Ignorance of what?

 

I hope I have explained what I mean by 'ignorance'

in this concept.

 

To further elaborate on it, in my experience, symptoms

like suffering, mental pain arise only after an attachment

to the false self has formed. As long as there is not attachment

to the false self you are free from these " thought based "

ailments.

 

But, if those thought ailments still form it is a clear

indication that the attachment to the false self is

still in place.

 

 

> >

> >

> >> P: I know there is no " me " to hold to any feeling,

> >> so they come and go without staying long. Impermanence

> >> is FINE. I love it!

> >

> > A: Well... sometimes, I love 'impermanence'

> > of 'mental states', sometimes I don't.

>

> P: That's OK.

 

Sure.

 

> >

> > A: And, I notice that I can not be 'angry',

> > 'sad', 'irritated', worried and LOVE it

> > at the same time.

>

> P: No problem, if you don't have an ideal

> of how you should feel.

 

I have noticed that having or not having

an 'ideal' doesn't matter much in regard

to what emotional state I end up in. It only

matters after I notice the mental state I end

up in. After that, if I have an " ideal " - I might

either try to achieve it or create suffering and

mental pain for having missed it. If I don't have

an " ideal " - I can just watch it dispassionately

and let it go or be " empowered " by it, indulge

in it and thus, make it stronger and more repeatable.

 

>

> >

> >

> >> P: Is not what it is felt, but the empty

> >> center through which those feelings float without

> >> sticking around like clouds through a summer sky,

> >> which is the core of realization.

> >

> > A: Is that your definition of " realization " ?

>

> P: That, and being informed by numen,

> and certainty, is much of it.

>

> I really don't give a fig if it can be measured,

> or not. I don't give a fig if there is a greater

> realization waiting. I don't give a fig if

> realization can be lost, or not. In short, I don't

> give a fig about the future.

 

'Not giving a fig' has some " aggressive " connotation

for me. I associate with expression some anger,

resentment or displeasure. Is that what you are trying

to covey, Pete?

 

I am not suggesting but, merely asking.

 

 

> I think you are OK,

> Arvind, but you still haven't accepted change.

 

 

Yes, I too think I am OK.

 

But, I see it more as I haven't stopped 'exploring'

and " investigating " and I beginning to see that

this exploration and investigation is benefiting me

at mental and personal level. I further see that

this exploration and investigation is a natural

tendency in me and I can not easily stop it without

repressing which might have some undesired

consequences.

 

As time has passed, I have become 'stable'

at some level and at another level, I am

still trying to question, inquire and learn more...

 

I think that is the part of the process of

'integration' and 'living' and 'learning

to live'.

 

I guess at some level, I will keep learning

all my " human " life.

 

With warm regards,

ac.