Guest guest Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Nisargadatta said: " I am concerned with only one fact. Here I was in my wholeness, not even aware of my awareness, then suddenly this consciousness sprang up. How did it come about? That is the question which needs investigating. " This is the question I am currently investigating, but I'm not clear on what he means by consciousness? Is he talking about " I-am-ness " consciousness, or Brahma consciousness? What is the difference? P: Very good, Jason, That quote is Nis at his best. There he is giving you the highest knowledge. " Here I was in my wholeness.. " He means before conception, then there was no consciousness of a universe, nor an other, nor self, nor This, nor Brahma, nor That. So how did the universe came to be mirrored in a bit of flesh? And who needs that? J: Nisargadatta said a ripened guru is beyond even Brahma consciousness. P: He said that because after you realize that you are Brahma, another realization comes: there is no " I', nor 'I am,' nor Brahma. S: I read that Brahma was the " first born " , born from a lotus, and then Bramha climbed down the lotus stem into the water to find out who he is. All I want to do at this stage is understand this. P: Nice faire tale! S: I understand that awareness makes consciousness possible, but it also requires " food " , some body. Does that mean everything is conscious ( to some degree)? P: Awareness and consciousness are just words like magnetism and electricity. Does magnetism makes electricity possible? In a dynamo, yes, sort of, but it's the same phenomenon, electromagnetism. So think of awareness as another form of electromagnetism, and consciousness as the electric current inside a brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 > perhaps: > > the consciousness of a tree is being a tree with all the attributes > of tree-ness. ;-) > > however, it takes another aspect of being a tree to see this. > > ;-) > That makes complete sense to me, but it doesn't answer my question. I think there two ways of looking at it - consciousness arising in the body-mind of an infant, and consciousness arising from the chaos during creation. The first kind of food-dependant consciousness, was what? An atom? A cell? (thinking of Hindu Creation story, where Brahma appears a lotus). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Thanks for humouring me, or dancing ot whatver you call it :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 In a Nisargadatta book " Consciousness and the Absolute " he differentiates between Consciousness and the Absolute. Consciousness = the I-AM = the 4th state = knowingness. Ramesh says in " Pointers From Nisargadatta Maharaj " , " In its state of perfection, of total Awareness, IT is unaware of its awareness; then consciousness stirs into a moan of Aum, and the dream of creation begins. IT is conscious of being. IT exults in this beingness. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: (snip) > Nis said that it's ok to investigate things, so long as you do it > whole heartedly. > > Nis also said... > > " I am concerned with only one fact. Here I was in my wholeness, not > even aware of my awareness, then suddenly this consciousness sprang > up. How did it come about? That is the question which needs > investigating. " > > This question has been driving me crazy for the last few days. I've > thought, meditated, and read about creation in the Srimad- > Bhagavatam. It's like a fire in my mind. > > Peace > Jason If there is only evenness, and then there is imbalance, how did the imbalance come to be? If there is only *this* and then twoness occurs, how can that be? If there is only " awareness " and then consciousness occurs, how can that be? These are basically the same question. And to know the answer to this question, you won't be able to assume yourself existing as knower. In Niz's terms, you can't assume yourself as consciousness knowing the answer, because you're asking how did consciousness come to be. You must be what is, prior to any cosciousness, prior to existing as a knower. So, you may know the answer, but not as the knower of it. So you can't hold the answer in your mind, because the mind depends on assuming a knower of its contents. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > > because " you " believe that you are exactly this body.... > > > > now...that you get slowly awareness/consciousness of the energy by > > which " you " got this believe.... > > > Ok, but so do many millions of others. Many others would not even > question the belief. Does the same apply to them? How could awareness > get itself into this predicament? And what about the mentally ill? > What about beings that are not capable of realising, like chimpanzees > in a zoo? You can't answer this for yourself, yet you are also wanting to answer it for all these " others " ? Perhaps this entire scenario you're describing will be very different for you, once you know the answer as you, for you, of your own being. You postulate all these others, but in Niz's terms, these others are objects of which consciousness is aware. So, you're assuming yourself as a conscious being, separate from other conscious beings, able to be aware of them and their limitations. In that stance, how can you possibly know what is prior to consciousness? You've already taken yourself as a separable being with its own located consciousness, and an existence with qualities of its own, unto itself. -- D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 > If there is only evenness, and then there is imbalance, how did the > imbalance come to be? > > If there is only *this* and then twoness occurs, how can that be? > > If there is only " awareness " and then consciousness occurs, how can > that be? > > These are basically the same question. > Yes! > And to know the answer to this question, you won't be able to assume > yourself existing as knower. In Niz's terms, you can't assume > yourself as consciousness knowing the answer, because you're asking > how did consciousness come to be. You must be what is, prior to any > cosciousness, prior to existing as a knower. > > So, you may know the answer, but not as the knower of it. > > So you can't hold the answer in your mind, because the mind depends on > assuming a knower of its contents. > > -- Dan > Nicely put. But most religions at least *attempt* to explain it. Niz often spoke of the five elements - this is basically Vedic way of explaining the grosser energies of the universe, the everyday matter and energy. That's simple enough. In the Vedas it says that these five elements were created by God " by his glance " . This occurred in the " causal ocean. " This is where it seems to begin. May be I need to stop this like you say! Because it does always end up with another question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 > You can't answer this for yourself, yet you are also wanting to answer > it for all these " others " ? > > Perhaps this entire scenario you're describing will be very different > for you, once you know the answer as you, for you, of your own being. > > You postulate all these others, but in Niz's terms, these others are > objects of which consciousness is aware. > > So, you're assuming yourself as a conscious being, separate from other > conscious beings, able to be aware of them and their limitations. > > In that stance, how can you possibly know what is prior to consciousness? > > You've already taken yourself as a separable being with its own > located consciousness, and an existence with qualities of its own, > unto itself. > > -- D. > Once one knows what one knows, where is the motivation for acquiring further knowledge? I want to take advantage of this ignorance while I still have it. It motivates me. If I merge in with the stateless state, all these others will still be there, or else who was Niz talking to in his books? Come on, these others may or may not exist, but from their point of view I'm sure they think they exist as beings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > > Once one knows what one knows, where is the motivation for acquiring > further knowledge? Sounds like an investment in " seeking " to me. Rather than inquiring into " seeking " itself, to understand its motivation, hence, not to invest in its motivation. > I want to take advantage of this ignorance while > I still have it. It motivates me. Rather than taking advantage of it, you could inquire into it, and understand that its motivation is a relentless and unending dissatisfaction that can never be quelled. A dissatisfaction that is addictive, because it has become associated with " being " and " being me. " > If I merge in with the stateless state, all these others will still > be there, or else who was Niz talking to in his books? You are speculating about this. You would have to be Niz, and be aware as Niz, to know how he understood his talking. Perhaps Niz spoke without maintaining any beliefs at all about supposed someone's whom he supposedly was addressing. But you can't know Niz from Niz's point of view. You only know from your point of view. So, why not find out what is so, for you, from and as your own " being-aware " -- you try to suppose what Niz knows and believes. Because all Niz is, to you, is a conglomeration of ideas and memories that you have formed into a character in your imagination. > Come on, > these others may or may not exist, but from their point of view I'm > sure they think they exist as beings. What you can be most sure of, is what you know most directly. And what you know most directly is your own being-aware, and whatever beliefs you attempt to carry with and as yourself, moment to moment. Why not investigate that? Because there is greater risk there, that is why not. And there is much less risk in speculating about " others " and what these others must be like, and how they must exist from their supposed points of view. -- D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > > If there is only evenness, and then there is imbalance, how did the > > imbalance come to be? > > > > If there is only *this* and then twoness occurs, how can that be? > > > > If there is only " awareness " and then consciousness occurs, how can > > that be? > > > > These are basically the same question. > > > > Yes! > > > And to know the answer to this question, you won't be able to > assume > > yourself existing as knower. In Niz's terms, you can't assume > > yourself as consciousness knowing the answer, because you're asking > > how did consciousness come to be. You must be what is, prior to > any > > cosciousness, prior to existing as a knower. > > > > So, you may know the answer, but not as the knower of it. > > > > So you can't hold the answer in your mind, because the mind > depends on > > assuming a knower of its contents. > > > > -- Dan > > > > Nicely put. But most religions at least *attempt* to explain it. Niz > often spoke of the five elements - this is basically Vedic way of > explaining the grosser energies of the universe, the everyday matter > and energy. That's simple enough. In the Vedas it says that these > five elements were created by God " by his glance " . This occurred in > the " causal ocean. " This is where it seems to begin. > > May be I need to stop this like you say! Because it does always end > up with another question. Yes. Answers to these kinds of questions, provided by teachers, are like giving a baby a rattle, so it gets quiet for a while. And it will only be quiet for a while, until the next perplexing question arises. I know that teachers in the Advaitic tradition would give one set of answers to questioners they deemed as being imbedded in certain assumptions (I am, the world exists), but would give other answers (no creation, no destruction) to those they thought were ready to transcend those assumptions (of a creation that occurred, of things that exist, of identifiable knowing beings that inhabit a known universe). But it's a good question you ask, a perplexing one, and one with no ultimate or final answer. Just like a koan in the Zen tradition. In Zen they would say, " stick with that question, become and be it, don't ever assume you have fully answered it. " To me, the " answer " has to do with bias. It is bias, also known as investment, that makes a division seem real, seem as if separation has occurred (or my " own " consciousness as a being, or being aware of or as a being that has its own existence). That bias comes from everywhere and nowhere. Like a kind of thirst from being itself, a thirst to know and to exist within experience, as one having experiences that can be known and retained. As if a bias could be valuable and positive, because it gave an experience of existing as a being between birth and death. Although there is this nagging doubt that it really hasn't been able to give what it seemed to offer. And that no division ever really occurred in any actual, ongoing, or established way. No anchor for being ever really could be there. -- D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > Thanks for humouring me, or dancing ot whatver you call it :-) > well darlin, that's the only dance there is, when you're dancing in the light... Bows, Ana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > because " you " believe that you are exactly this body.... > > > > > > > > now...that you get slowly awareness/consciousness of the energy by > > > > which " you " got this believe.... > > > > > > > > > Ok, but so do many millions of others. Many others would not even > > > question the belief. Does the same apply to them? How could awareness > > > get itself into this predicament? And what about the mentally ill? > > > What about beings that are not capable of realising, like chimpanzees > > > in a zoo? > > > > > > there are no others.... > > > > as long you are living in this your " believe-zoo " ....there are also all > > this others appearing.... > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > ...............kinda like ............in your dream last night? > > > > toombaru lol... the " believe-zoo " ....is like the dream last night.....yes Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno@> > wrote: > > > > > because " you " believe that you are exactly this body.... > > > > > > now...that you get slowly awareness/consciousness of the energy by > > > which " you " got this believe.... > > > > > > Ok, but so do many millions of others. Many others would not even > > question the belief. Does the same apply to them? How could awareness > > get itself into this predicament? And what about the mentally ill? > > What about beings that are not capable of realising, like chimpanzees > > in a zoo? > > > there are no others.... > > as long you are living in this your " believe-zoo " ....there are also all > this others appearing.... > > Marc Ps: i understand your question.... but i'm sure that it apply to every entity which is dreaming to be seperated from Self.... who/what is dreaming to have free decision and choice..... but after a while......more or less long period of time...... after more or less fabuloes experiences and understandings and insights and intiutions.... it's time for Home.....for everybody...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > because " you " believe that you are exactly this body.... > > > > > > > > now...that you get slowly awareness/consciousness of the energy by > > > > which " you " got this believe.... > > > > > > > > > Ok, but so do many millions of others. Many others would not even > > > question the belief. Does the same apply to them? How could awareness > > > get itself into this predicament? And what about the mentally ill? > > > What about beings that are not capable of realising, like chimpanzees > > > in a zoo? > > > > > > there are no others.... > > > > as long you are living in this your " believe-zoo " ....there are also all > > this others appearing.... > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > ...............kinda like ............in your dream last night? > > > > toombaru > What dream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 --- dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 wrote: > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " > <jasondedonno@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > because " you " believe that you are exactly this body.... > > > > > > > > > > now...that you get slowly awareness/consciousness of the > energy by > > > > > which " you " got this believe.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, but so do many millions of others. Many others would not > even > > > > question the belief. Does the same apply to them? How could > awareness > > > > get itself into this predicament? And what about the mentally > ill? > > > > What about beings that are not capable of realising, like > chimpanzees > > > > in a zoo? > > > > > > > > > there are no others.... > > > > > > as long you are living in this your " believe-zoo " ....there are > also all > > > this others appearing.... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...............kinda like ............in your dream last night? > > > > > > > > toombaru > > lol... > > the " believe-zoo " ....is like the dream last night.....yes > > Marc > > here no believe-zoo though a dream moving slow and deep what on the surface not important while what is deep is well... deep and so the depths go stirring ever deeper as if dissolving down down there is more to be said than just that this is a side-show don't be satisfied that you " know " there is no summit you can sit upon and declare you know all summits are not attainments but deadends Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , pliantheart <pliantheart wrote: > > > > --- dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " > > <jasondedonno@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > because " you " believe that you are exactly this body.... > > > > > > > > > > > > now...that you get slowly awareness/consciousness of the > > energy by > > > > > > which " you " got this believe.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, but so do many millions of others. Many others would not > > even > > > > > question the belief. Does the same apply to them? How could > > awareness > > > > > get itself into this predicament? And what about the mentally > > ill? > > > > > What about beings that are not capable of realising, like > > chimpanzees > > > > > in a zoo? > > > > > > > > > > > > there are no others.... > > > > > > > > as long you are living in this your " believe-zoo " ....there are > > also all > > > > this others appearing.... > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...............kinda like ............in your dream last night? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > lol... > > > > the " believe-zoo " ....is like the dream last night.....yes > > > > Marc > > > > > here no believe-zoo > > though a dream > > moving slow and deep > > what on the surface > not important > > while what is deep is > well... > deep > > and so the depths go stirring > ever deeper > > as if dissolving > down > down > > there is more to be said > than just that this is > a side-show > > don't be satisfied that you " know " > > there is no summit you can sit upon > and declare you know all > > summits are not attainments > but deadends > > Bill > > > there is a time.... .....for every .... ego minds.... dissolving.... into pure love and peace and knowledge and awareness.... with/during a more less nice show.... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 <snip> > > > > here no believe-zoo > > > > though a dream > > > > moving slow and deep > > > > what on the surface > > not important > > > > while what is deep is > > well... > > deep > > > > and so the depths go stirring > > ever deeper > > > > as if dissolving > > down > > down > > > > there is more to be said > > than just that this is > > a side-show > > > > don't be satisfied that you " know " > > > > there is no summit you can sit upon > > and declare you know all > > > > summits are not attainments > > but deadends > > > > Bill > > > > > > there is a time.... > > ....for every .... > > ego minds.... > > dissolving.... > > into pure love and peace and knowledge and awareness.... > > with/during a more less nice show.... LOL!! I love it Bill > Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Richard " <richarkar wrote: > > In a Nisargadatta book " Consciousness and the Absolute " he > differentiates between Consciousness and the Absolute. > > Consciousness = the I-AM = the 4th state = knowingness. > > Ramesh says in " Pointers From Nisargadatta Maharaj " , " In its state of > perfection, of total Awareness, IT is unaware of its awareness; then > consciousness stirs into a moan of Aum, and the dream of creation > begins. IT is conscious of being. IT exults in this beingness. " > Thanks. Where was the Ramesh quote from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 > here no believe-zoo > > though a dream > > moving slow and deep > > what on the surface > not important > > while what is deep is > well... > deep > > and so the depths go stirring > ever deeper > > as if dissolving > down > down > > there is more to be said > than just that this is > a side-show > > don't be satisfied that you " know " > > there is no summit you can sit upon > and declare you know all > > summits are not attainments > but deadends > > Bill I know there is not summit to sit on. It reminds me of the Zen quote - " When you reach the top of a 100ft pole, what then? " I just want to tie up a few loose ends before I let this go. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 > Answers to these kinds of questions, provided by teachers, are like > giving a baby a rattle, so it gets quiet for a while. > > And it will only be quiet for a while, until the next perplexing > question arises. > > I know that teachers in the Advaitic tradition would give one set of > answers to questioners they deemed as being imbedded in certain > assumptions (I am, the world exists), but would give other answers (no > creation, no destruction) to those they thought were ready to > transcend those assumptions (of a creation that occurred, of things > that exist, of identifiable knowing beings that inhabit a known universe). Yes. I notice Niz did this a lot. > Just like a koan in the Zen tradition. > > In Zen they would say, " stick with that question, become and be it, > don't ever assume you have fully answered it. " No chance I can let it go. It's like a constant headache - almost makes me feel ill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I'm beginnging to feel like a monkey in zoo myself. Is everyone here stateless, or are there a few imagined beings like me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > I'm beginnging to feel like a monkey in zoo myself. Is everyone here > stateless, or are there a few imagined beings like me? thats a good question to the VIP Gurus in here.... let's see how they react on this important words... curious too.... let's wait and see..... how the important answers will be.... but patience.... Marc Ps: the fruits will be there....when there is infinite patience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > > here no believe-zoo > > > > though a dream > > > > moving slow and deep > > > > what on the surface > > not important > > > > while what is deep is > > well... > > deep > > > > and so the depths go stirring > > ever deeper > > > > as if dissolving > > down > > down > > > > there is more to be said > > than just that this is > > a side-show > > > > don't be satisfied that you " know " > > > > there is no summit you can sit upon > > and declare you know all > > > > summits are not attainments > > but deadends > > > > Bill > > I know there is not summit to sit on. It reminds me of the Zen > quote - " When you reach the top of a 100ft pole, what then? " > > I just want to tie up a few loose ends before I let this go. > > J > It's loose ends........all the way down. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " > <jasondedonno@> wrote: > > > > I'm beginnging to feel like a monkey in zoo myself. Is everyone > here > > stateless, or are there a few imagined beings like me? > Well.........that's just it. There is no you. So..........in a way.........we are all here......like you. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > I'm beginnging to feel like a monkey in zoo myself. Is everyone here > stateless, or are there a few imagined beings like me? > if you can truly see that you take yourself to be what you call an imagined being...there is already a letting go... when the feeling I am a monkey in the zoo appears...you just welcome it...let it be absolutey what it appears to be...dont interfere at all...dont react...let it be like a dying horse in a stable...watch it...follow its movement and at the same time stay detached.... and you will suddenly find yourself out of the happening... in what you call the statless.... ...iietsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.