Guest guest Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 <snip> > > > > there is " phenomena " ... > > what we call " appearance " > > and there is constant transformation, > > fluctuation, change in " appearance " ... > > > > such fluctuation can be seen as > > " my experience " , but not necessarily. > > > > to *see it as* a dynamic system is an > > alternative. Just a way of seeing. > > To see as a dynamic system is interesting > > at times. But to see it in those terms > > is not (necessarily) to say it *is* > > a system. > > > > Bill > > > > It is strange to me that others can feel and understand > " change " and fluctuation. I do not understand it at all! > > Everything, every sequence of events is to me individual disconnected > parts that are complete things with no relation to each other... > I have a massive form of dyslexia in which I can only read one letter > at a time, never a whole word all at one glance. And that is how I > experience life. > > I artifically string things together in order to participate in life > events with other people. But I am just faking it. Often I am told > that my statements sound cumbersome or clumsy. > > As I am writing this my heart is pounding and I am hyperventalating > because I am touching something that feels powerful and explosive to > me, something I do not often look at. > > In the physical game of life this is not a pro survival state, because > writing my name or driving my car is imensly complicated to me... but > in a spiritual sense it is an infinity of individual " selves " and > " nows " , which is neither good nor bad. > I am not experiencing life this way, I am Being lives this way. > Nothing flows or changes, all things just are all at once to me. > > I often fear the future just like most other people, but I don't > comprehend how it is also, at some point, the present. > > Thanks for letting me express all of that to each of you as it helped > me see it more fully:-) > > Stuart > Hi Stuart, I consider this message of yours very important and will give it my fullest attention. For now I just would like to ask a few questions: 1. Are you able to *slow down* your experience at all? For example, if you are reading, can you slow down the pace of the reading effort? Similarly with breathing... can you pay attention to your breathing and then slow down your breathing? 2. Are you able to " just observe " as you do a mundane task, such as washing dishes? That is, can you let yourself mechanically go through the dish-washing task and just observe yourself doing that. 3. What is it like for you to do something not too demanding such as taking a walk? Again, are you able to " just observe " as you do that? 4. What about thoughts? A constant stream of thought, or something else...? 5. Do you ever meditate? If so, what is that like? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 " pliantheart " <pliantheart wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > > > there is " phenomena " ... > > > what we call " appearance " > > > and there is constant transformation, > > > fluctuation, change in " appearance " ... > > > > > > such fluctuation can be seen as > > > " my experience " , but not necessarily. > > > > > > to *see it as* a dynamic system is an > > > alternative. Just a way of seeing. > > > To see as a dynamic system is interesting > > > at times. But to see it in those terms > > > is not (necessarily) to say it *is* > > > a system. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > It is strange to me that others can feel and understand > > " change " and fluctuation. I do not understand it at all! > > > > Everything, every sequence of events is to me individual disconnected > > parts that are complete things with no relation to each other... > > I have a massive form of dyslexia in which I can only read one letter > > at a time, never a whole word all at one glance. And that is how I > > experience life. > > > > I artifically string things together in order to participate in life > > events with other people. But I am just faking it. Often I am told > > that my statements sound cumbersome or clumsy. > > > > As I am writing this my heart is pounding and I am hyperventalating > > because I am touching something that feels powerful and explosive to > > me, something I do not often look at. > > > > In the physical game of life this is not a pro survival state, because > > writing my name or driving my car is imensly complicated to me... but > > in a spiritual sense it is an infinity of individual " selves " and > > " nows " , which is neither good nor bad. > > I am not experiencing life this way, I am Being lives this way. > > Nothing flows or changes, all things just are all at once to me. > > > > I often fear the future just like most other people, but I don't > > comprehend how it is also, at some point, the present. > > > > Thanks for letting me express all of that to each of you as it helped > > me see it more fully:-) > > > > Stuart > > > > Hi Stuart, > > I consider this message of yours very important and > will give it my fullest attention. > > For now I just would like to ask a few questions: > > 1. Are you able to *slow down* your experience at all? No, not at all. If I could I could put things into a sequence or larger clumps of data, like seeing a whole single word instead of a jumble of letters that are in themselves each a jumble of parts of letters. > For example, if you are reading, can you slow down the > pace of the reading effort? Similarly with breathing... > can you pay attention to your breathing and then slow > down your breathing? All degrees of speed are too fast. I am not saying that I suffer. I am blessed by a curse, because I am constantly having a mystical or trance like experience or different point of view than others do:-) Its like living in another dimension, which is fun... expept that survival in this physical game-universe is drastically hampered... > > 2. Are you able to " just observe " as you do a mundane task, > such as washing dishes? That is, can you let yourself > mechanically go through the dish-washing task and just > observe yourself doing that. Yes I can observe, but not the sequence, only the disjointed totally unrelated parts of the task of dish washing. This could have helped me learn to stand still in a chaos, but it has only resulted in my at best, becoming acustomed to the chaos, and one more thing. I would never have mentioned this to this list but I am on the subject so I will... I can feal peace (rarely) when I move myself to a place I call the pastel universe. It is a state in which there are no objects or time, and activity is complete in itself. I call this " pure do " or the state of " Being Action " without reason or a goal or a self as a thing that is a doer at the source of the action. No task is started or completed... just a state of " Pure absolute Do " . It first started when I was a little boy looking at a new leaf that had just unfolded on a tree. There seemed to be a Pure Do that was the heart of that leaf and it would feel no loss if it shriveled up and fell off and it would feel no gain if it sustained the entire tree with its chlorophyll. > > 3. What is it like for you to do something not too demanding > such as taking a walk? Again, are you able to " just observe " > as you do that? I very easily become one with the forest if I walk in one, but I can never take that with me when I leave the forest. > > 4. What about thoughts? A constant stream of thought, or > something else...? Automatic mind chatter most of the time but not a " stream " ... all the thoughts are at once and I am each of them all at once... and so I do not ever (almost ever) sleep without the aid of sleeping pills... which alter brain chemestry in a negative way. But I consider this a painful gift because it gives me chaos as a thing to hold onto. > > 5. Do you ever meditate? If so, what is that like? Only for seconds and it is like trying to see between parts of the universe or of me, and it is like a torture. It is a usless task for me because my body or brain are in a state of ADHD due to imbalances of epinephrine, norepinephrine dopamine and saratonin. I believe that all things are doorways to enlightment... even this. Thank you for acknowledging my post:-) All psychotheripy is, is in one way or another, listening and acknowleding:-) Stu > > Bill > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 --- stuartkfmn <stuartkfmn wrote: > " pliantheart " <pliantheart wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > there is " phenomena " ... > > > > what we call " appearance " > > > > and there is constant transformation, > > > > fluctuation, change in " appearance " ... > > > > > > > > such fluctuation can be seen as > > > > " my experience " , but not necessarily. > > > > > > > > to *see it as* a dynamic system is an > > > > alternative. Just a way of seeing. > > > > To see as a dynamic system is interesting > > > > at times. But to see it in those terms > > > > is not (necessarily) to say it *is* > > > > a system. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > It is strange to me that others can feel and understand > > > " change " and fluctuation. I do not understand it at all! > > > > > > Everything, every sequence of events is to me individual disconnected > > > parts that are complete things with no relation to each other... > > > I have a massive form of dyslexia in which I can only read one letter > > > at a time, never a whole word all at one glance. And that is how I > > > experience life. > > > > > > I artifically string things together in order to participate in life > > > events with other people. But I am just faking it. Often I am told > > > that my statements sound cumbersome or clumsy. > > > > > > As I am writing this my heart is pounding and I am hyperventalating > > > because I am touching something that feels powerful and explosive to > > > me, something I do not often look at. > > > > > > In the physical game of life this is not a pro survival state, because > > > writing my name or driving my car is imensly complicated to me... but > > > in a spiritual sense it is an infinity of individual " selves " and > > > " nows " , which is neither good nor bad. > > > I am not experiencing life this way, I am Being lives this way. > > > Nothing flows or changes, all things just are all at once to me. > > > > > > I often fear the future just like most other people, but I don't > > > comprehend how it is also, at some point, the present. > > > > > > Thanks for letting me express all of that to each of you as it helped > > > me see it more fully:-) > > > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > Hi Stuart, > > > > I consider this message of yours very important and > > will give it my fullest attention. > > > > For now I just would like to ask a few questions: > > > > 1. Are you able to *slow down* your experience at all? > > No, not at all. If I could I could put things into a sequence or > larger clumps of data, like seeing a whole single word instead of a > jumble of letters that are in themselves each a jumble of parts of > letters. In what ways are you able to modulate your experience... i.e. in what ways can you change the nature of your experience? You say you cannot slow it down. What about attention? In what ways can you modify/control attention? Can you change what your attention is on? Can you adjust focus of attention, e.g. can you *relax* the focus of attention? > > For example, if you are reading, can you slow down the > > pace of the reading effort? Similarly with breathing... > > can you pay attention to your breathing and then slow > > down your breathing? > > All degrees of speed are too fast. > > I am not saying that I suffer. I am blessed by a curse, because I am > constantly having a mystical or trance like experience or different > point of view than others do:-) Its like living in another dimension, > which is fun... expept that survival in this physical game-universe is > drastically hampered... So it is strange/awkward from the perspective of " trying to get things done " but is not in itself painful or disturbing... > > > > 2. Are you able to " just observe " as you do a mundane task, > > such as washing dishes? That is, can you let yourself > > mechanically go through the dish-washing task and just > > observe yourself doing that. > > Yes I can observe, but not the sequence, only the disjointed totally > unrelated parts of the task of dish washing. This could have helped > me learn to stand still in a chaos, but it has only resulted in my at > best, becoming acustomed to the chaos, and one more thing. I wonder at your emphasis on " sequence " . If I am observing myself washing dishing there is no sequence involved. It is all happening at once. Why is sequence important to you? What makes you say it is chaos? Does the process of dish washing happen in an orderly way? If someone were to observe you washing dishes would they say it was chaotic? > I would never have mentioned this to this list but I am on the subject > so I will... > I can feal peace (rarely) when I move myself to a place I call the > pastel universe. It is a state in which there are no objects or time, > and activity is complete in itself. I call this " pure do " or the > state of " Being Action " without reason or a goal or a self as a thing > that is a doer at the source of the action. No task is started or > completed... just a state of " Pure absolute Do " . It first started > when I was a little boy looking at a new leaf that had just unfolded > on a tree. There seemed to be a Pure Do that was the heart of that > leaf and it would feel no loss if it shriveled up and fell off and it > would feel no gain if it sustained the entire tree with its chlorophyll. > Note that the rare time that you describe as peaceful there are no " activities " ... as if your sense of chaos pertains to when you have a task or activity of some kind to perform. What happens when you do something without *trying*? For example, take a pencil and sheet of paper and draw on the paper, but put no limitations or expectation on yourself as you do so. Even if the paper ends up blank, that is okay. What happens in such a case? > > 3. What is it like for you to do something not too demanding > > such as taking a walk? Again, are you able to " just observe " > > as you do that? > > I very easily become one with the forest if I walk in one, but I can > never take that with me when I leave the forest. Neither can I (take it with me). And most people cannot become one with the forest if they walk in one. So you are blessed in that dept. So in what other activities can you become " one with " as in walking in forest? > > > > 4. What about thoughts? A constant stream of thought, or > > something else...? > > Automatic mind chatter most of the time but not a " stream " ... all the > thoughts are at once and I am each of them all at once... and so I do > not ever (almost ever) sleep without the aid of sleeping pills... > which alter brain chemestry in a negative way. There is a medication that is designed to induce sleep in a way that is not negative. It is called Remeron (the name comes from REM for Rapid Eye Movement). I've used it and always have awakened with a profoundly refreshing sleep. Amazing stuff. Also can induce very vivid dreaming. > But I consider this a > painful gift because it gives me chaos as a thing to hold onto. Why do you need anything to hold onto? We can't be free until we really REALLY let go. > > > > 5. Do you ever meditate? If so, what is that like? > > Only for seconds and it is like trying to see between parts of the > universe or of me, and it is like a torture. You say above that you do not suffer from your condition, yet here say meditating is a torture. What gives? By meditation I mean just sitting and being attentive to the movement of consciousness. Nothing more. > It is a usless task for > me because my body or brain are in a state of ADHD due to imbalances > of epinephrine, norepinephrine dopamine and saratonin. I suggest you beware of saying things are impossible for you because of your brain chemistry. > I believe that all things are doorways to enlightment... even this. > > Thank you for acknowledging my post:-) All psychotheripy is, is in > one way or another, listening and acknowleding:-) > > Stu Your comments were fascinating. I look forward to your reply. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Nisargadatta , pliantheart <pliantheart wrote: > > > > --- stuartkfmn <stuartkfmn wrote: > > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is " phenomena " ... > > > > > what we call " appearance " > > > > > and there is constant transformation, > > > > > fluctuation, change in " appearance " ... > > > > > > > > > > such fluctuation can be seen as > > > > > " my experience " , but not necessarily. > > > > > > > > > > to *see it as* a dynamic system is an > > > > > alternative. Just a way of seeing. > > > > > To see as a dynamic system is interesting > > > > > at times. But to see it in those terms > > > > > is not (necessarily) to say it *is* > > > > > a system. > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is strange to me that others can feel and understand > > > > " change " and fluctuation. I do not understand it at all! > > > > > > > > Everything, every sequence of events is to me individual disconnected > > > > parts that are complete things with no relation to each other... > > > > I have a massive form of dyslexia in which I can only read one letter > > > > at a time, never a whole word all at one glance. And that is how I > > > > experience life. > > > > > > > > I artifically string things together in order to participate in life > > > > events with other people. But I am just faking it. Often I am told > > > > that my statements sound cumbersome or clumsy. > > > > > > > > As I am writing this my heart is pounding and I am hyperventalating > > > > because I am touching something that feels powerful and explosive to > > > > me, something I do not often look at. > > > > > > > > In the physical game of life this is not a pro survival state, because > > > > writing my name or driving my car is imensly complicated to me... but > > > > in a spiritual sense it is an infinity of individual " selves " and > > > > " nows " , which is neither good nor bad. > > > > I am not experiencing life this way, I am Being lives this way. > > > > Nothing flows or changes, all things just are all at once to me. > > > > > > > > I often fear the future just like most other people, but I don't > > > > comprehend how it is also, at some point, the present. > > > > > > > > Thanks for letting me express all of that to each of you as it helped > > > > me see it more fully:-) > > > > > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > > > > Hi Stuart, > > > > > > I consider this message of yours very important and > > > will give it my fullest attention. > > > > > > For now I just would like to ask a few questions: > > > > > > 1. Are you able to *slow down* your experience at all? > > > > No, not at all. If I could I could put things into a sequence or > > larger clumps of data, like seeing a whole single word instead of a > > jumble of letters that are in themselves each a jumble of parts of > > letters. > > In what ways are you able to modulate your experience... i.e. > in what ways can you change the nature of your experience? > You say you cannot slow it down. What about attention? In what > ways can you modify/control attention? Can you change what your > attention is on? Can you adjust focus of attention, e.g. can you > *relax* the focus of attention? I don't really modulate my eperiences, maybe because I don't believe in change of one thing into another. In some ways, I experience all that I experience, all at once. But I can feel happy or sad, pain or pleasure; so I am not talking about polarities in this discussion. I am only talking about outcomes. All outcomes are all here all at once for me. My choice is to try to focus on one thing instead of another, but it is an egoic activity and I am not good at it. > > > > For example, if you are reading, can you slow down the > > > pace of the reading effort? Similarly with breathing... > > > can you pay attention to your breathing and then slow > > > down your breathing? > > > > All degrees of speed are too fast. > > > > I am not saying that I suffer. I am blessed by a curse, because I am > > constantly having a mystical or trance like experience or different > > point of view than others do:-) Its like living in another dimension, > > which is fun... expept that survival in this physical game-universe is > > drastically hampered... > > So it is strange/awkward from the perspective of " trying to get things done " Exactly. > but is not in itself painful or disturbing... Only in that I am judged by society or various groups of people, as being an oddball and it affects my income... so yes, it is painful but it is not my pain... Or it is my pain when I believe what I am told by those who judge me in a negative way. > > > > > > > 2. Are you able to " just observe " as you do a mundane task, > > > such as washing dishes? That is, can you let yourself > > > mechanically go through the dish-washing task and just > > > observe yourself doing that. > > > > Yes I can observe, but not the sequence, only the disjointed totally > > unrelated parts of the task of dish washing. This could have helped > > me learn to stand still in a chaos, but it has only resulted in my at > > best, becoming acustomed to the chaos, and one more thing. > > I wonder at your emphasis on " sequence " . If I am observing myself > washing dishing there is no sequence involved. It is all happening > at once. Why is sequence important to you? Because I live in time and space and the egoic game of life can't be played when the beginning and the end are all here at once. I am not talking about oneness, I am talking about all things superimposed on all other things, like multiple exposures on one photograph. I believe you experience the " pure do " and call it " all happening at once " . I can do that too, but in a game the sequence is to me the playing field or carrier wave, and I am a radio siginal that is not on a carrier wave. > > What makes you say it is chaos? > Because it is not oneness, it is horse back riding without knowing where the horse is. > Does the process of dish washing happen in an orderly way? > If someone were to observe you washing dishes would they > say it was chaotic? I is orderly... because to some degree I can mimic what others do. > > > I would never have mentioned this to this list but I am on the subject > > so I will... > > I can feal peace (rarely) when I move myself to a place I call the > > pastel universe. It is a state in which there are no objects or time, > > and activity is complete in itself. I call this " pure do " or the > > state of " Being Action " without reason or a goal or a self as a thing > > that is a doer at the source of the action. No task is started or > > completed... just a state of " Pure absolute Do " . It first started > > when I was a little boy looking at a new leaf that had just unfolded > > on a tree. There seemed to be a Pure Do that was the heart of that > > leaf and it would feel no loss if it shriveled up and fell off and it > > would feel no gain if it sustained the entire tree with its chlorophyll. > > > > Note that the rare time that you describe as peaceful there are no > " activities " ... as if your sense of chaos pertains to when you have > a task or activity of some kind to perform. Interesting!:-) True... > > What happens when you do something without *trying*? > For example, take a pencil and sheet of paper and draw on the > paper, but put no limitations or expectation on yourself as > you do so. Even if the paper ends up blank, that is okay. > What happens in such a case? I am a sculptor and I only do free forms because there is nothing to duplicate or comply with. The only rule I honor when sculpting is " don't make it look like a hood ornament " :-) > > > > 3. What is it like for you to do something not too demanding > > > such as taking a walk? Again, are you able to " just observe " > > > as you do that? > > > > I very easily become one with the forest if I walk in one, but I can > > never take that with me when I leave the forest. > > Neither can I (take it with me). And most people cannot become one > with the forest if they walk in one. So you are blessed in that dept. Yes, exactly, I am blessed:-) But I pay dearly for that blessing. > > So in what other activities can you become " one with " as in walking > in forest? LOL You are doing psychotherapy on me! :-) Nature as in oceans, forests, clouds in the sky... I become one with them. > > > > > > > 4. What about thoughts? A constant stream of thought, or > > > something else...? > > > > Automatic mind chatter most of the time but not a " stream " ... all the > > thoughts are at once and I am each of them all at once... and so I do > > not ever (almost ever) sleep without the aid of sleeping pills... > > which alter brain chemestry in a negative way. > There is a medication that is designed to induce sleep in a way > that is not negative. It is called Remeron (the name comes from REM > for Rapid Eye Movement). I've used it and always have awakened with > a profoundly refreshing sleep. Amazing stuff. Also can induce very > vivid dreaming. Yes, but if you used it daily for years, it would mess you up. > > > But I consider this a > > painful gift because it gives me chaos as a thing to hold onto. > > Why do you need anything to hold onto? We can't be free > until we really REALLY let go. Yes, I agree... So maybe this problem is a great gift in that if forces me to deal with that issue of letting go:-) It is very interesting to me... that letting go can be freeing, but if done as an ego it is only polarizing as in the polarity of " free / trapped " . It may be that when we love the moments when we have let go and hate the moments when we are stuck... we are not experiencing any moments of freedom at all, but only an egoic posive pole that feels good. > > > > > > > 5. Do you ever meditate? If so, what is that like? > > > > Only for seconds and it is like trying to see between parts of the > > universe or of me, and it is like a torture. > You say above that you do not suffer from your condition, yet here > say meditating is a torture. What gives? You hit the nail on the head! I have come to believe that each of me in the all at once, experiences all possibilities or outcomes or sensations, etc. Each is a viewpoint. You spotted two of these viewpoints!:-) > > By meditation I mean just sitting and being attentive to the > movement of consciousness. Nothing more. > Yes, I know... But there are so many of me watching different moments .... That is the chaos!!! And one of me dislikes forcing the list members to read about my story when I should instead be talking about the subject of this list... > > It is a usless task for > > me because my body or brain are in a state of ADHD due to imbalances > > of epinephrine, norepinephrine dopamine and saratonin. > > I suggest you beware of saying things are impossible for you because > of your brain chemistry. Good point:-) Negative affirmation:-) > > > I believe that all things are doorways to enlightment... even this. > > > > Thank you for acknowledging my post:-) All psychotheripy is, is in > > one way or another, listening and acknowleding:-) > > > > Stu > > Your comments were fascinating. I look forward to your reply. But my replies are just a story and the one thing that is negative about a story is that the more you tell it the more real it becomes. Thanks for your interest Bill:-))) Stu > > Bill > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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