Guest guest Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > > Is there a movement in your awareness as you read this? > > > > yes > > > > > > > Are you able to simply observe whatever movement there > > may be in your awareness? > > > > yes > > > But the understanding comes *after* dissolution into Now, > > not beforehand. The understanding is not a *means*. > > > > And consider, how could one possibly understand *before* > > dissolution into Now? > > > > I realise that understanding will not help me, but there must be > some verbal expression of this. All these different people, animals, > billions of " I ams " feeling seperate. > re: " I realise that understanding will not help me, but there must be some verbal expression of this. " Some verbal expression of what? Dissolution into Now is utterly independent of verbal expression. You understand that I think. Dissolution into Now is *abandoning* the realm of verbal manipulation as the basis for ordering reality. It is a very dramatic departure. And not easily undertaken. It is a break from the entire way one experiences order. Hence the realm of verbal manipulation does not want to relinquish control and attempts to maintain control by making *its* issues central. It does this by positing questions. Which is precisely what I see in your comments. To make continual observation of whatever movement there may be in awareness the sole practice is what I recommend. Even if the quest for verbal understanding continues, behind all that observe whatever movement of attention that is going on. Eventually you realize that the movement of attention happens of its own and that you don't have to identify with it. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 > Dissolution into Now is utterly independent of verbal expression. > You understand that I think. > > Dissolution into Now is *abandoning* the realm of verbal > manipulation as the basis for ordering reality. It is a > very dramatic departure. And not easily undertaken. It is > a break from the entire way one experiences order. > > Hence the realm of verbal manipulation does not want to > relinquish control and attempts to maintain control by making > *its* issues central. It does this by positing questions. > Which is precisely what I see in your comments. > > To make continual observation of whatever movement there > may be in awareness the sole practice is what I recommend. > Even if the quest for verbal understanding continues, > behind all that observe whatever movement of attention that > is going on. > > Eventually you realize that the movement of attention happens > of its own and that you don't have to identify with it. > > > Bill When you say movement in awareness...well, I have some difficult with that word sometimes. Is it not movements in consciousness that are taking place, when I switch focus? When chasing trying to figure out something, like the idea of " free will " , for exanmple, it feels like I am going down a tunnel which gets smaller and smaller until eventual I can't move, or can only move very slowly. Or, moving inside a branch of tree until I get the very tip of the leaf, and then pressing new leaves into shape. Is this what you mean by observing movements of awareness? (Just a small digression here. If lucky on any of these thought endeavours, I end up with two concepts (and a headache!!). Like for example, " conscious and unconscious " , " positive and negative " , " order and disorder " , and conclude that one cannot exist without the other, and then I start to get mixed up as to which is which, " Life and Death " being a good example. " Subject and Object " is the big one at the moment. On a less serious note, it does seem that the answer to the universe is....<drum roll>....2! The reason, every attempt at " plumbing the depths " of any topic or idea ends up with a concept that has its oppsoite concept. Amazing really. So the common denominator is 2. And of course that ties in with the idea that the nature of the mind is duality. Niz said this..) But back to the serious...When you say movement in awareness...is it what I referred to before digression here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > > Dissolution into Now is utterly independent of verbal expression. > > You understand that I think. > > > > Dissolution into Now is *abandoning* the realm of verbal > > manipulation as the basis for ordering reality. It is a > > very dramatic departure. And not easily undertaken. It is > > a break from the entire way one experiences order. > > > > Hence the realm of verbal manipulation does not want to > > relinquish control and attempts to maintain control by making > > *its* issues central. It does this by positing questions. > > Which is precisely what I see in your comments. > > > > To make continual observation of whatever movement there > > may be in awareness the sole practice is what I recommend. > > Even if the quest for verbal understanding continues, > > behind all that observe whatever movement of attention that > > is going on. > > > > Eventually you realize that the movement of attention happens > > of its own and that you don't have to identify with it. > > > > > > Bill > > When you say movement in awareness...well, I have some difficult > with that word sometimes. Is it not movements in consciousness that > are taking place, when I switch focus? yes...! > When chasing trying to figure out something, like the idea of " free > will " , for exanmple, it feels like I am going down a tunnel which > gets smaller and smaller until eventual I can't move, or can only > move very slowly. Or, moving inside a branch of tree until I get the > very tip of the leaf, and then pressing new leaves into shape. > > Is this what you mean by observing movements of awareness? yes in both examples it is movement of attention movements in consciousness = movement of attention > (Just a small digression here. If lucky on any of these thought > endeavours, I end up with two concepts (and a headache!!). Like for > example, " conscious and unconscious " , " positive and > negative " , " order and disorder " , and conclude that one cannot exist > without the other, and then I start to get mixed up as to which is > which, that " mixed up " ... just stay with that... what that is is a gentle " buzz " from coming out of the grip of the thought process. The thought process wants to say " bad! you are mixed up! get on track again! " ... but ignore those injunctions... that " mixed up " is really just " being " [recalls the saying, " Confusion is a state of grace. " ] " Life and Death " being a good example. " Subject and Object " > is the big one at the moment. On a less serious note, it does seem > that the answer to the universe is....<drum roll>....2! The reason, > every attempt at " plumbing the depths " of any topic or idea ends up > with a concept that has its oppsoite concept. Amazing really. So the > common denominator is 2. And of course that ties in with the idea > that the nature of the mind is duality. Niz said this..) > > But back to the serious...When you say movement in awareness...is it > what I referred to before digression here? totally... and now that you understand that, my suggestion is to just *witness* that movement. When you are witnessing the movement of attention continuously you come to realize that Hey! I'm just witnessing it and it continues to move along. Soooo... while it has always seemed that it was *me* that was moving the attention, I can see now that it moves of its own. Hence to come to disindentify with the movement of attention. And that is huge... because when you no longer identify with the movement of attention you no longer identify with the behavior of the " mechanism " (the body process ). And no longer identifying with all that you realize that it is all happening of its own and is not you. At that point you are basically free. So it all starts with witnessing the movement of attention. Just that. Very simple but you must stick with it. Keep coming back to it (you will get caught up again and again). Bill PS: There is one more suggest to deepen that process, but not until you have the witnessing of attention well established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 < totally... < and now that you understand that, my suggestion is to < just *witness* that movement. When you are witnessing < the movement of attention continuously you come to realize < that Hey! I'm just witnessing it and it continues to move < along. Soooo... while it has always seemed that it was < *me* that was moving the attention, I can see now that it < moves of its own. Hence to come to disindentify with the < movement of attention. And that is huge... because when < you no longer identify with the movement of attention < you no longer identify with the behavior of the " mechanism " < (the body process ). And no longer identifying with all < that you realize that it is all happening of its own and < is not you. At that point you are basically free. < So it all starts with witnessing the movement of attention. < Just that. < Very simple but you must stick with it. Keep coming back < to it (you will get caught up again and again). < Bill < PS: There is one more suggest to deepen that process, < but not until you have the witnessing of attention < well established. Either on or off the list, I'm interested in knowing what your suggestion is! Michael Adamson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Adamson " <adamson wrote: > > < totally... > > < and now that you understand that, my suggestion is to > < just *witness* that movement. When you are witnessing > < the movement of attention continuously you come to realize > < that Hey! I'm just witnessing it and it continues to move > < along. Soooo... while it has always seemed that it was > < *me* that was moving the attention, I can see now that it > < moves of its own. Hence to come to disindentify with the > < movement of attention. And that is huge... because when > < you no longer identify with the movement of attention > < you no longer identify with the behavior of the " mechanism " > < (the body process ). And no longer identifying with all > < that you realize that it is all happening of its own and > < is not you. At that point you are basically free. > > < So it all starts with witnessing the movement of attention. > < Just that. > > < Very simple but you must stick with it. Keep coming back > < to it (you will get caught up again and again). > > < Bill > > < PS: There is one more suggest to deepen that process, > < but not until you have the witnessing of attention > < well established. > > Either on or off the list, I'm interested in knowing what your suggestion is! > > Michael > Adamson This is just " programming " notions... not an attempt to say the " way it is " : consider two dimensions for attention: one is what the attention is *on*... where it is *directed* the other is the degree of focus. The suggestion is to ignore the first dimension altogether, just observe where attention goes of its own accord, as suggested in the prior message. Regarding the second dimension of attention, though, the suggestion is to " soften " the attention, allowing it to become more an more diffuse. And don't try to get this intellectually, rather experiment... get a taste. It will seem like there is really no limit to how much you can soften attention once you get into it. I could say more, but better to experience for oneself... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 > and now that you understand that, my suggestion is to > just *witness* that movement. When you are witnessing > the movement of attention continuously you come to realize > that Hey! I'm just witnessing it and it continues to move > along. Soooo... while it has always seemed that it was > *me* that was moving the attention, I can see now that it > moves of its own. Hence to come to disindentify with the > movement of attention. And that is huge... because when > you no longer identify with the movement of attention > you no longer identify with the behavior of the " mechanism " > (the body process ). And no longer identifying with all > that you realize that it is all happening of its own and > is not you. At that point you are basically free. > > So it all starts with witnessing the movement of attention. > Just that. > > Very simple but you must stick with it. Keep coming back > to it (you will get caught up again and again). > Not easy. Is witnessing a form of attention? If I'm giving attention to thought process, and I'm very focused on that, I'm so absorbed in it that in order to witness it, it seems I must split my attention, become less aborbed in the thought, may even end that thought. It seems th emind is single pointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > > and now that you understand that, my suggestion is to > > just *witness* that movement. When you are witnessing > > the movement of attention continuously you come to realize > > that Hey! I'm just witnessing it and it continues to move > > along. Soooo... while it has always seemed that it was > > *me* that was moving the attention, I can see now that it > > moves of its own. Hence to come to disindentify with the > > movement of attention. And that is huge... because when > > you no longer identify with the movement of attention > > you no longer identify with the behavior of the " mechanism " > > (the body process ). And no longer identifying with all > > that you realize that it is all happening of its own and > > is not you. At that point you are basically free. > > > > So it all starts with witnessing the movement of attention. > > Just that. > > > > Very simple but you must stick with it. Keep coming back > > to it (you will get caught up again and again). > > > Not easy. Is witnessing a form of attention? If I'm giving attention > to thought process, and I'm very focused on that, I'm so absorbed in > it that in order to witness it, it seems I must split my attention, > become less aborbed in the thought, may even end that thought. It > seems th emind is single pointed. > The belief that 'mind' can see itself is the problem.....not the solution. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno@> > wrote: > > > > > and now that you understand that, my suggestion is to > > > just *witness* that movement. When you are witnessing > > > the movement of attention continuously you come to realize > > > that Hey! I'm just witnessing it and it continues to move > > > along. Soooo... while it has always seemed that it was > > > *me* that was moving the attention, I can see now that it > > > moves of its own. Hence to come to disindentify with the > > > movement of attention. And that is huge... because when > > > you no longer identify with the movement of attention > > > you no longer identify with the behavior of the " mechanism " > > > (the body process ). And no longer identifying with all > > > that you realize that it is all happening of its own and > > > is not you. At that point you are basically free. > > > > > > So it all starts with witnessing the movement of attention. > > > Just that. > > > > > > Very simple but you must stick with it. Keep coming back > > > to it (you will get caught up again and again). > > > > > Not easy. Is witnessing a form of attention? If I'm giving attention > > to thought process, and I'm very focused on that, I'm so absorbed in > > it that in order to witness it, it seems I must split my attention, > > become less aborbed in the thought, may even end that thought. It > > seems th emind is single pointed. > > > > > The belief that 'mind' can see itself is the problem.....not the solution. > > > toombaru > ...belife in the problem.....that...the problem....is.....no problem: .......no problem.... ......iietsa.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 --- toombaru2006 <lastrain wrote: > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno > wrote: > > > > > and now that you understand that, my suggestion is to > > > just *witness* that movement. When you are witnessing > > > the movement of attention continuously you come to realize > > > that Hey! I'm just witnessing it and it continues to move > > > along. Soooo... while it has always seemed that it was > > > *me* that was moving the attention, I can see now that it > > > moves of its own. Hence to come to disindentify with the > > > movement of attention. And that is huge... because when > > > you no longer identify with the movement of attention > > > you no longer identify with the behavior of the " mechanism " > > > (the body process ). And no longer identifying with all > > > that you realize that it is all happening of its own and > > > is not you. At that point you are basically free. > > > > > > So it all starts with witnessing the movement of attention. > > > Just that. > > > > > > Very simple but you must stick with it. Keep coming back > > > to it (you will get caught up again and again). > > > > > Not easy. Is witnessing a form of attention? If I'm giving attention > > to thought process, and I'm very focused on that, I'm so absorbed in > > it that in order to witness it, it seems I must split my attention, > > become less aborbed in the thought, may even end that thought. It > > seems th emind is single pointed. > > > > > The belief that 'mind' can see itself is the problem.....not the solution. No such thing as " the problem " . No such thing as " the solution " . No such thing as " the mind " . > > toombaru > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.