Guest guest Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 > >> So, have you found the believe that is behind the feeling of *power*? > > Yes. > > > > To me, it is I don't care what > > you [others] think, say, want, > > like, dislike, approve, disapprove... > > > > My focus is only on what I want! > > > > This is what I want, whether > > you like it or not... is NOT > > my problem! > So, I hear, that you know you have more power than others, when you > focus only on what you want and don't care what others want. > > Is that accurate? Not exactly I feel " empowered " when my focus is fully on myself and other doesn't even enter the picture. I this " zone of power " , I don't see myself comparing with others and checking who has more power than the other. I am fully focused on myself and what I want. I don't even bother to check what others might want, think, say or do... If they [others] want, they can express " what they want " and I will hear it but, I will still focus ONLY on " what I want " ! I might also do " what they say they want " - but, only if it is also " what I want " and not because it is what they want! My focus when I am in " power zone " is fully on myself and I am just concentrating on what I want. I might still do things that might appear like " I am doing it for someone else " or " I am doing it because I care for someone else " ... but, I do it ONLY because that is what I want! > > And this is how you see someone that has power over you, as well? I think " over me " [or over someone] is not that important in this context! What I see as the key here is that the *empowered* person is not concerned with what others might think, do, say or express. The empowered person just acts the way which he/she wants without concerning himself/herself of the opinions, feedback, reactions or response of others! The *person in power* feels no threat, no fear from others. The *person in power* feels no " dependence " on the others! The person in power feels no need from others! And as a consequence, the *person in power* feels complete freedom to fully be himself/herself, full express himself/ herself without any external manipulation, coating or polish. That is what I mean by being in the *zone of power*! I have seen that many bosses naturally slip into this *zone* when they deal with their sub-ordinates. I have seen that I too naturally slip into this zone I deal with my sub-ordinates. On the opposite side, I have seen that in some meetings with my boss(es) I have greatly disagreed with their POV, have found them lying, misquoting, misrepresenting, distorting or inappropriately accusing. On these occasions, my natural response [if I felt *in power*] might have been to flatly ask them what they were doing. But, the " memory " part of my brain might tell me that it is not " safe " or " wise " to do so in this place and at this time - but, when I listen to this voice of *memory* and do what it says, I feel *out of power*! This is a practical situation that I sometimes find myself in. I have seen these kind of situations often leading into inner conflict and pain possibly because of inner repression/manipulation of true feelings/thoughts that they involve. I have been thinking of a *better* way to respond in these situations and I have experimented with *direct* response too. With direct response, many times, I have ended up in *direct* and *fierce* confrontation with my boss! I think main reason I have been still safe [in job] in spite of doing so is because the job market is so good... I have asked: - Is there a peaceful way to lie? - i.e. is there a way to lie and remain at peace? I have not yet, found that way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > > >> So, have you found the believe that is behind the feeling of > *power*? > > > Yes. > > > > > > To me, it is I don't care what > > > you [others] think, say, want, > > > like, dislike, approve, disapprove... > > > > > > My focus is only on what I want! > > > > > > This is what I want, whether > > > you like it or not... is NOT > > > my problem! > > > > So, I hear, that you know you have more power than others, when > you > > focus only on what you want and don't care what others want. > > > > Is that accurate? > > Not exactly > > I feel " empowered " when my focus > is fully on myself and other doesn't > even enter the picture. > > I this " zone of power " , I don't see > myself comparing with others and > checking who has more power than > the other. I am fully focused on > myself and what I want. I don't even > bother to check what others might > want, think, say or do... > > If they [others] want, they can express > " what they want " and I will hear it but, > I will still focus ONLY on " what I want " ! > > I might also do " what they say they want " - > but, only if it is also " what I want " and not > because it is what they want! > > > My focus when I am in > " power zone " is fully on myself and I am just > concentrating on what I want. I might still do things > that might appear like " I am doing it for someone > else " or " I am doing it because I care for someone else " ... > > but, I do it ONLY because that is what I want! > > > > > > And this is how you see someone that has power over you, as well? > > I think " over me " [or over someone] is not > that important in this context! What I see as > the key here is that the *empowered* person > is not concerned with what others might think, > do, say or express. The empowered person > just acts the way which he/she wants without > concerning himself/herself of the opinions, > feedback, reactions or response of others! > > > The *person in power* feels no threat, no > fear from others. The *person in power* > feels no " dependence " on the others! > The person in power feels no need from > others! > > And as a consequence, the *person in > power* feels complete freedom to fully > be himself/herself, full express himself/ > herself without any external manipulation, > coating or polish. > > That is what I mean by being in the > *zone of power*! > > I have seen that many bosses naturally > slip into this *zone* when they deal with > their sub-ordinates. > > I have seen that I too naturally slip into > this zone I deal with my sub-ordinates. > > > > On the opposite side, > I have seen that in some meetings with my boss(es) > I have greatly disagreed with their POV, > have found them lying, misquoting, misrepresenting, > distorting or inappropriately accusing. On these occasions, > my natural response [if I felt *in power*] might have > been to flatly ask them what they were doing. > But, the " memory " part of my brain might tell > me that it is not " safe " or " wise " to do so in this > place and at this time - but, when I listen to this > voice of *memory* and do what it says, I feel > *out of power*! > > > This is a practical situation that I sometimes > find myself in. I have seen these kind of situations > often leading into inner conflict and pain possibly > because of inner repression/manipulation of true > feelings/thoughts that they involve. > > > I have been thinking of a *better* way to respond > in these situations and I have experimented with *direct* > response too. With direct response, many times, > I have ended up in *direct* and *fierce* confrontation > with my boss! I think main reason I have been still safe > [in job] in spite of doing so is because the job market is so good... > > > I have asked: > > - Is there a peaceful way to lie? > > - i.e. is there a way to lie and remain at peace? > > I have not yet, found that way! > very interesting. sounds like this only works when you're dealing with subordinates. so, it's not that you've achieved some kind of universally applicable state. rather, it's entirely dependent on your material advantage over others, in a purely capitalistic way. similarly, you say you only focus on what you want. but what do you want? if what you want is love from others, then you're in deep trouble because nobody's going to love you for being this way. they will only want either your material, your capital, or to change you into someone that can love. if you only want material advantage, then your life sounds pretty sterile. i know you don't care what i think. but if that were completely true, you wouldn't post. i assume you're posting to find out how long you can maintain and develop this agenda. so you actually do care what others think. all i myself want is to get your responses, if you will. and to just let you know that down the road, i'm quite sure, you'll find that it isn't power that you want, which is a lower chakra energy, but love, which is higher, more serene and more aware. clearly, awareness is not your priority, at this time, others would matter to you, if only for the pleasure of full awareness. but anything less than one's capacity for full awareness, is really a form of self-stupefaction. in fact, power can be defined as the capacity to stupefy. but to stupefy, one must be, oneself, stupefied. the reason your bosses won't edify you, is that that would bring you up to their level of awareness. and their power is dependent on your ignorance, on the one hand, and theirs vis a vis their superiors, on the other. the price they pay for keeping you down, is that they must themselves be kept down. that's the inate problem with power relations. as a wage slave, you may have no choice but to cultivate this state of mind. you capacity and willingness to articulate it, however, is quite unique and promising. i do believe you will ultimately talk yourself beyond it. those less articulate, are far less likely. on the other hand, if they find or live among warm hearts, not much articulation is necessary. it doesn't sound as though you have intimacy with your family. the absence of such warmth is tragic. the presence, is beautiful. however, the tragic and the beautiful cannot exist without each other. still, it may be better to have loved, experienced beauty, and lost, than never to have loved, experienced beauty and it's inevitable tragedy, at all. mabye that's what you're protecting yourself against. how about your family? ~*~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Hi Messenger! How are you?- I have read your response and it reads quite loving, thoughtful and considerate to me! Thanks! More below... [...] > > I have asked: > > > > - Is there a peaceful way to lie? > > > > - i.e. is there a way to lie and remain at peace? > > > > I have not yet, found that way! > > > > > very interesting. sounds like this only works when you're dealing > with subordinates. so, it's not that you've achieved some kind of > universally applicable state. rather, it's entirely dependent on your > material advantage over others, in a purely capitalistic way. Partly yes. But, I wouldn't call it " material advantage over others " but, simply Freedom and Power to do what I want! > > similarly, you say you only focus on what you want. but what do you > want? That depends. Sometimes what I might want is in fact, to make someone happy, make someone comfortable, protect someone from harm, buy someone food, medicine or ... house... or add some value by building something new, creating new means of livelihood, employment or creating new way of living, or, by creating a respectful, rightful opportunity for someone... yet, I know, this is what *I Want* and it has nothing to do with the *other*! And, I know I am doing it only because this is TRULY what I want to do , this is my Inner Voice, this is my Inner Flow and I am doing it because doing it makes me happy... NOW! What others think of it doesn't matter! What will be the ultimate result of it - I may not know and it doesn't seem to matter because I am doing it simply because this is what I want to do NOW and because I am enjoying doing it Now! I am doing it because I feel energized by doing it Now! Loving Doing it is the reason I am doing it - if it does something good in terms of result that is an added bonus but, that is not my focus or intention! Similarity if someone was helped because of it, it is good and an added bonus - yet, it is not my reason for doing it. > if what you want is love from others, then you're in deep > trouble because nobody's going to love you for being this way. No. This is not what I want. Because, I notice that I have received [and do continue to receive] plenty of it without making any external attempt to get it. I notice that I often receive it just by being myself and without doing anything specific with the purpose of " gaining love " ! > they will only want either your material, your capital, > or to change you into someone that can love. Yes. That could be true. > > if you only want material advantage, then your life sounds pretty sterile. I hope I clarified it above. I don't think I care for " advantage " but, I know I want " abundance " and freedom to create what I want to create at each moment! > > i know you don't care what i think. I do care in the sense that I care to hear it and try to understand it and I thank you for taking time to read and respond. > but if that were completely true, > you wouldn't post. I am not sure if I fully understand what you mean here. But, I might put forward things for simple reason of examining it, studying it, analyzing it and learning more about it. And, I might believe that others can bring insights and perspective that I may not yet be aware of! > i assume you're posting to find out how long you > can maintain and develop this agenda. so you actually do care what > others think. > > all i myself want is to get your responses, if you will. Sure. It has been my pleasure. > and to just > let you know that down the road, i'm quite sure, you'll find that it > isn't power that you want, which is a lower chakra energy, but love, > which is higher, more serene and more aware. I don't think I find myself too much out of love. But, I do find myself sometimes lacking enough power and freedom to fully be myself. > > clearly, awareness is not your priority, at this time, others would > matter to you, if only for the pleasure of full awareness. but > anything less than one's capacity for full awareness, is really a form of self-stupefaction. I am not sure, if I fully understand what you mean here. It is my understanding that I can not really know what others want, think or will do. Therefore, it might be more truthful to FOCUS on only what I might know - myself! > > in fact, power can be defined as the capacity to stupefy. but to > stupefy, one must be, oneself, stupefied. the reason your bosses > won't edify you, is that that would bring you up to their level of > awareness. Yet, that is not true for all bosses. I have had no less than 12-15 bosses but, only 3-4 of them have had this problem. I think in many cases their problem has possibly stemmed from their own feeling of insecurity, inferiority and their own lack of confidence! > and their power is dependent on your ignorance, on the one > hand, and theirs vis a vis their superiors, on the other. > > the price they pay for keeping you down, is that they must themselves > be kept down. that's the inate problem with power relations. > > as a wage slave, you may have no choice but to cultivate this state of > mind. you capacity and willingness to articulate it, however, is > quite unique and promising. i do believe you will ultimately talk > yourself beyond it. > > those less articulate, are far less likely. on the other hand, if > they find or live among warm hearts, not much articulation is necessary. > > it doesn't sound as though you have intimacy with your family. I do feel quite close to my family. But, I don't find myself too concerned for them. > the absence of such warmth is tragic. Yes. It could be. > the presence, is beautiful. > however, the tragic and the beautiful cannot exist without each other. > > still, it may be better to have loved, experienced beauty, and lost, > than never to have loved, experienced beauty and it's inevitable > tragedy, at all. Sure. > > mabye that's what you're protecting yourself against. how about your > family? I think my family is doing quite fine. > > ~*~ > Greeting, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Simply tell the truth. (The truth is a peaceful lie) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 In Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > Hi Messenger! > > How are you?- > > I have read your response and it reads > quite loving, thoughtful and considerate > to me! > > Thanks! > > More below... thank you, as well! but i must confess, with some embarrassment, that i now realize that i almost completely misunderstood your post. when i read it, it sounded as though you were on some kind of power trip. but now that i see that your main desire is to be sensitive both to yourself first, and then, in an albeit indirect way, to others, as an expression and outgrowth of this self awareness, i find i must change my mind almost completely. and it reminds of how i, at times, make seemingly indefensible and provocative statements, just to arouse interest and challenge assumptions. i don't know whether you were doing this, i may have missed some posts that lead to the one i responded to. in any case, i do feel almost completely in accord with your attitude, now that you explain it. although, if you remain interested in my response, i would like to quibble just a little bit, with a few details that, for me, in any case, enrich a basic focus that we both, actually seem to share. i'll stick to 'seem,' since i have no doubt you will surprise me again, if our dialog continues. > > > [...] > > > > > I have asked: > > > > > > - Is there a peaceful way to lie? > > > > > > - i.e. is there a way to lie and remain at peace? > > > > > > I have not yet, found that way! > > > > > > > > > very interesting. sounds like this only works when you're dealing > > with subordinates. so, it's not that you've achieved some kind of > > universally applicable state. rather, it's entirely dependent on > your > > material advantage over others, in a purely capitalistic way. > > Partly yes. But, I wouldn't call it > " material advantage over others " > but, simply Freedom and Power to > do what I want! > > > > > > similarly, you say you only focus > on what you want. but what do you > > want? > > That depends. > > Sometimes what I might want is in fact, > to make someone happy, make someone > comfortable, protect someone from harm, > buy someone food, medicine or ... house... > or add some value by building something > new, creating new means of livelihood, > employment or creating new way of living, > or, by creating a respectful, rightful > opportunity for someone... > > yet, I know, this is what *I Want* > and it has nothing to do with the > *other*! > > And, I know I am doing it only > because this is TRULY what I want to do > , this is my Inner Voice, this is my Inner > Flow and I am doing it because doing > it makes me happy... NOW! > > What others think of it doesn't matter! > What will be the ultimate result of it - > I may not know and it doesn't seem to matter > because I am doing it simply because this is > what I want to do NOW and because I am enjoying > doing it Now! I am doing it because I feel > energized by doing it Now! > > Loving Doing it is the reason I am doing it - > if it does something good in terms of result > that is an added bonus but, that is not my focus > or intention! Similarity if someone was helped > because of it, it is good and an added bonus - yet, > it is not my reason for doing it. my point would be subtle: at first it sounds as though you are intentionally blocking out what others think and feel, how they respond to you. but now i see that you are not blocking them out at all. you are merely not focusing or centering on them. still, i can't imagine that you would focus so exclusively on yourself. it sounds to me as though such a seemingly exclusive focus would take effort. does it? if it does, then it wouldn't seem too comfortable or sustainable, therefore. on the other hand, if it is relatively effortless, then the emphasis you seem to place on it, seems contradictory. still, i do find, that as i explore an new attitude, i tend to overemphasize it, to a degree, just to give it the impetus it seems to need, in order to take shape and grow. > > > > if what you want is love from others, then you're in deep > > trouble because nobody's going to love you for being this way. > > No. > > This is not what I want. Because, I notice that > I have received [and do continue to receive] > plenty of it without making any external > attempt to get it. I notice that I often > receive it just by being myself and without > doing anything specific with the purpose > of " gaining love " ! ah, well then, i see that you are aware of getting and appreciating love. that, for me, paints a completely different picture than the one i got at first. all you're saying is that you aren't intentionally working at getting love. and i find we share this position too. i just like to be in the state of love, or, the word i'm starting to prefer, warmth. so, i just create this atmosphere of warmth for myself, and others seem to want to cuddle up with me in that space. what i now see you doing, is just creating a space of warmth, or love. and i would see how you call it freedom and power. yes, because it is the ultimate freedom and power: the freedom and power to be in the space or state of love, or warmth. so, all i can say is that power, semantically, has always meant something completely different than the way you're using it. i wonder whether you mightn't check with others to see whether they don't share my ambivalence. i'd be surprised if you didn't as well, to be honest with you. > > > > they will only want either your material, your capital, > > or to change you into someone that can love. > > > Yes. That could be true. not if you are creating this inner space that i would prefer to call warmth or love. then, all they really want is to share that inner space. but i might be putting words into you mouth. > > > > > > if you only want material advantage, then your life sounds pretty > sterile. > > I hope I clarified it above. > > I don't think I care for " advantage " but, > I know I want " abundance " and freedom > to create what I want to create at each > moment! > > > > > > i know you don't care what i think. > > I do care in the sense that I care to > hear it and try to understand it and I > thank you for taking time to read and > respond. > > > but if that were completely true, > > you wouldn't post. > > I am not sure if I fully understand what > you mean here. > > But, I might put forward things for simple > reason of examining it, studying it, analyzing > it and learning more about it. And, I might > believe that others can bring insights and > perspective that I may not yet be aware of! > > yes, that's the opposite of my first impression. > > i assume you're posting to find out how long you > > can maintain and develop this agenda. so you actually do care what > > others think. > > > > > > all i myself want is to get your responses, if you will. > > Sure. It has been my pleasure. > > > > and to just > > let you know that down the road, > i'm quite sure, you'll find that it > > isn't power that you want, which is > a lower chakra energy, but love, > > which is higher, more serene and more aware. > > I don't think I find myself too much > out of love. But, I do find myself > sometimes lacking enough power > and freedom to fully be myself. > sounds like you are in love, then. my experience is that when i feel a lack, it is because i haven't taken the opportunity to love that, so called, lack. once i love it, it is completely transformed into an abundance. do you know what i'm referring to? > > > > clearly, awareness is not your priority, at this time, others would > > matter to you, if only for the pleasure of full awareness. but > > anything less than one's capacity for full awareness, is really a > form of self-stupefaction. > > > I am not sure, if I fully understand > what you mean here. > > It is my understanding that I can not > really know what others want, think > or will do. Therefore, it might be more > truthful to FOCUS on only what I might know > - myself! > yes, here's, again, where a certain level of 'subtlety' comes in, for me. i would definitely focus primarily on my feelings. but that doesn't mean that i have to exclude others' feelings, just because i can't be entirely sure of what they are. on the contrary. i find that to focus on others' feelings, is simultaneously, simultaneously, to focus on my own. it's quite magical, i find. the only reason, i, personally, thought of it as either i have to focus on my own or i have to focus on another's, was due to parental dictate. the sense that i had to either obey an authority figure or i had the freedom to surrender to myself. but once i found myself emancipated from any sense of obligation, it became, has become, an utter delight to feel myself, in a very real sense, in others, and others in myself. so, our point of departure, if there is one, may focus almost entirely on how significant that sense of obligation is to us. hope you have time, if you respond, to address this issue, if no other. obligation. since it is the exact opposite of what you want: freedom. > > in fact, power can be defined as the capacity to stupefy. but to > > stupefy, one must be, oneself, stupefied. the reason your bosses > > won't edify you, is that that would bring you up to their level of > > awareness. > > Yet, that is not true for all bosses. > > I have had no less than 12-15 bosses > but, only 3-4 of them have had this > problem. > > I think in many cases their problem has > possibly stemmed from their own feeling > of insecurity, inferiority and their own > lack of confidence! > sounds like you have the perfect handle on it. > > and their power is dependent on your ignorance, on the one > > hand, and theirs vis a vis their superiors, on the other. > > > > the price they pay for keeping you down, is that they must > themselves > > be kept down. that's the innate problem with power relations. > > > > as a wage slave, you may have no choice but to cultivate this > state of > > mind. you capacity and willingness to articulate it, however, is > > quite unique and promising. i do believe you will ultimately talk > > yourself beyond it. > > > > those less articulate, are far less likely. on the other hand, if > > they find or live among warm hearts, not much articulation is > necessary. > > > > it doesn't sound as though you have intimacy with your family. > > I do feel quite close to my family. > But, I don't find myself too concerned > for them. > i'm getting a double message. i'm wondering if this isn't sort of the inflection point whereby i could hang the sense i get that i'm hearing two opposite stories unfold. do you know what i mean? > > the absence of such warmth is tragic. > > Yes. It could be. > > > > the presence, is beautiful. > > however, the tragic and the beautiful cannot exist without each > other. > > > > still, it may be better to have loved, experienced beauty, and > lost, > > than never to have loved, experienced beauty and it's inevitable > > tragedy, at all. > > Sure. > > > > > > maybe that's what you're protecting yourself against. how about > your > > family? > > I think my family is doing quite fine. > sounds good. but, not to push too hard, how do you feel: in contrast to what you think. i feel and think that most people whose lives are determined significantly by a sense of obligation have two salient qualities: 1) they long for freedom 2) they feel obligated by both themselves and others. these two properties prevent them from being fully in touch with both their own feelings and those of others. i would define obligation as, precisely, the demand that one become insensitive to one's own and other's feelings. where there's complete openness to feelings, there is the sense of freedom that is the polar opposite of obligation. does this, perhaps, ring true? > > ~*~ > > > > Greeting, > ac. > may warmth grow with you ~*~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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