Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart wrote: > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into > the higher states of consciousness and finally go > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler > levels, without losing one's grip on the levels left > behind. In a way it is like having death under > control. One begins with the lowest levels: social > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of the > body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond the > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond 'I-am- > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all > ideas into the impersonally personal pure being. But > you must be energetic when you take to meditation. > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit > your interests and activities to what is needed for > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your > energies and time for breaking the wall your mind > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > regret. > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > I Am That > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > Bill > yes...the shift from the catchy attention...the so called focusing on the object... to the openness attention...the so called being the pure attention itself...not cathing...not releasing...only beingness itself ....iietsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Nisargadatta , " iietsa " <iietsa wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > wrote: > > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into > > the higher states of consciousness and finally go > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler > > levels, without losing one's grip on the levels left > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: social > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of the > > body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond the > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond 'I-am- > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure being. But > > you must be energetic when you take to meditation. > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit > > your interests and activities to what is needed for > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your > > energies and time for breaking the wall your mind > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > regret. > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > I Am That > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > Bill > > > yes...the shift from the catchy attention...the so called focusing > on the object... > > to the openness attention...the so called being the pure attention > itself...not cathing...not releasing...only beingness itself > ...iietsa > just so attention as clear and as vast as the sky Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart wrote: > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into > > the higher states of consciousness and finally go > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler > > levels, without losing one's grip on the levels > > left > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: social > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of the > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > perceptions; > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond the > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond 'I-am- > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure being. > > But > > you must be energetic when you take to meditation. > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit > > your interests and activities to what is needed > > for > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all > > your > > energies and time for breaking the wall your mind > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > regret. > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > I Am That > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art > > of > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > Bill > > > Sounds likes lots of effort to me. > > Noel think of it as a " softening " of attention... attention becoming more diaphanous, transparent... it is a softening of the focus... more and more It is concentrated focus that is effort. Dilution and expansion of focus is the opposite. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart wrote: > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into > > the higher states of consciousness and finally go > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler > > levels, without losing one's grip on the levels > > left > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: social > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of the > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > perceptions; > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond the > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond 'I-am- > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure being. > > But > > you must be energetic when you take to meditation. > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit > > your interests and activities to what is needed > > for > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all > > your > > energies and time for breaking the wall your mind > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > regret. > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > I Am That > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art > > of > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > Bill Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. One is not the cause or effect of the other. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into > > > the higher states of consciousness and finally go > > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > > shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler > > > levels, without losing one's grip on the levels > > > left > > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: social > > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of the > > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > > perceptions; > > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond the > > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond 'I-am- > > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all > > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure being. > > > But > > > you must be energetic when you take to meditation. > > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit > > > your interests and activities to what is needed > > > for > > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all > > > your > > > energies and time for breaking the wall your mind > > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > > regret. > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > > I Am That > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art > > > of > > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > > > Bill > > > > > Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > > > toombaru > Meditation in the beginning and meditation in the end are different. The quote from Nis is to someone at the beginning. In the end one can say there is no meditation or there is only meditation. In the end the quality of intent has completely dissolved into the shimmering liquidity of the moment. And meditation is never a cause... the evolutionary path of meditation is one of liberation from the bondage of believing there is any " having an effect " (via intentions, actions, etc.). Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , Noel > > <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce > > into > > > > the higher states of consciousness and finally > > go > > > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > > > shifting the focus of attention to ever > > subtler > > > > levels, without losing one's grip on the > > levels > > > > left > > > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: > > social > > > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > the > > > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > > > perceptions; > > > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond > > the > > > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond > > 'I-am- > > > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond > > all > > > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure > > being. > > > > But > > > > you must be energetic when you take to > > meditation. > > > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. > > Limit > > > > your interests and activities to what is > > needed > > > > for > > > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save > > all > > > > your > > > > energies and time for breaking the wall your > > mind > > > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > > > regret. > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > > > I Am That > > > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the > > art > > > > of > > > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > > > > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it > describes awareness without effort. > > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta > piece is in 'without losing one's grip'... 'like > having death under control.' > > 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these > words feel like heavy weights to me. > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta > would say about fear Toombaru responded using the word > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it > describes 'grasping'. > > What do you think? > > Noel Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by the terms you indicate. I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of intensity... his *earnestness*. Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " that can certainly sound like effort involved. But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to *do* something. It is simply an enormous devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be raised to some level to emerge from the clutches of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just lah-di-dah out of that. So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an utmost intensity, an utmost seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a laid-back floating down the stream either! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 " pliantheart " <pliantheart wrote: Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under control. One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is grasped and firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas into the impersonally personal pure being. But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and activities to what is needed for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. Believe me, you will not regret Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention.... " Bill T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. One is not the cause or effect of the other. toombaru N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes awareness without effort. Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel like heavy weights to me. If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say about fear Toombaru responded using the word 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes 'grasping'. What do you think? Noel B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by the terms you indicate. I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of intensity... his *earnestness*. Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " that can certainly sound like effort involved. But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to *do* something. It is simply an enormous devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be raised to some level to emerge from the clutches of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just lah-di-dah out of that. So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an utmost intensity, an utmost seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a laid-back floating down the stream either! Bill Yes Bill ! And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline practiced for decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " with every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, Nisargadatta's salvation is at Era Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Era Molnar " <n0ndual wrote: > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: > > B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the > levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under control. One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas into the impersonally personal pure being. > > But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and activities to what is needed > for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. Believe me, you will not regret > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention.... " > Bill > > T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > toombaru > > N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes awareness without effort. > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel like heavy weights to me. > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say about fear Toombaru responded using the word > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes 'grasping'. > What do you think? > > Noel > > B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by the terms you indicate. > > I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of intensity... his *earnestness*. > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to *do* something. It is simply an enormous > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be raised to some level to emerge from the clutches > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just lah-di-dah out of that. > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an utmost intensity, an utmost > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a laid-back floating down the stream either! > > Bill > > > > Yes Bill ! > > And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline practiced for decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " with every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, Nisargadatta's salvation is at > > Era > The same earnestness applied to one's boot straps will proportedly lift one to the ceiling. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Era Molnar " <n0ndual@> wrote: > > > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > > Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher > states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of > meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever > subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the > > levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under control. > One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and > habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the mind, its > thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is > grasped and > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the > sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', > beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas > into the impersonally personal pure being. > > > > But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is > definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and > activities to what is needed > > for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies > and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. > Believe me, you will not regret > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the > focus of attention.... " > > Bill > > > > T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > > > toombaru > > > > N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes > awareness without effort. > > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in > 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' > 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel like > heavy weights to me. > > > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say > about fear Toombaru responded using the word > > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes > 'grasping'. > > What do you think? > > > > Noel > > > > B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by > the terms you indicate. > > > > I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not > his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been > > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of > intensity... his *earnestness*. > > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, > " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " > > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and > the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly > rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of > > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to > *do* something. It is simply an enormous > > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be > raised to some level to emerge from the clutches > > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just > lah-di-dah out of that. > > > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. > But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an > utmost intensity, an utmost > > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a > laid-back floating down the stream either! > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > Yes Bill ! > > > > And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops > easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline practiced for > decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " with > every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, > Nisargadatta's salvation is at > > > > Era > > > The purpose of earnestness is the realization that earnestness has no effect. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Era Molnar " <n0ndual wrote: > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: > > B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the > levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under control. One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas into the impersonally personal pure being. > > But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and activities to what is needed > for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. Believe me, you will not regret > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention.... " > Bill > > T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > toombaru > > N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes awareness without effort. > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel like heavy weights to me. > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say about fear Toombaru responded using the word > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes 'grasping'. > What do you think? > > Noel > > B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by the terms you indicate. > > I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of intensity... his *earnestness*. > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to *do* something. It is simply an enormous > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be raised to some level to emerge from the clutches > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just lah-di-dah out of that. > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an utmost intensity, an utmost > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a laid-back floating down the stream either! > > Bill > > > > Yes Bill ! > > And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline practiced for decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " with every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, Nisargadatta's salvation is at > > Era > Your enthusiasm is contagious Era! ) Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Era Molnar " <n0ndual@> wrote: > > > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > > Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher > states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of > meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever > subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the > > levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under control. > One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and > habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the mind, its > thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is > grasped and > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the > sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', > beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas > into the impersonally personal pure being. > > > > But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is > definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and > activities to what is needed > > for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies > and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. > Believe me, you will not regret > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the > focus of attention.... " > > Bill > > > > T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > > > toombaru > > > > N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes > awareness without effort. > > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in > 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' > 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel like > heavy weights to me. > > > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say > about fear Toombaru responded using the word > > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes > 'grasping'. > > What do you think? > > > > Noel > > > > B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by > the terms you indicate. > > > > I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not > his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been > > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of > intensity... his *earnestness*. > > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, > " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " > > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and > the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly > rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of > > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to > *do* something. It is simply an enormous > > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be > raised to some level to emerge from the clutches > > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just > lah-di-dah out of that. > > > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. > But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an > utmost intensity, an utmost > > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a > laid-back floating down the stream either! > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > Yes Bill ! > > > > And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops > easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline practiced for > decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " with > every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, > Nisargadatta's salvation is at > > > > Era > > > > > The same earnestness applied to one's boot straps will proportedly > lift one to the ceiling. > > > > toombaru > Let's not futz around Toomb! The same earnestness applied to one's earnestness... whatever it is, return it to itself... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Era Molnar " <n0ndual@> wrote: > > > > > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher > > states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of > > meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever > > subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the > > > levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under control. > > One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and > > habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the mind, its > > thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is > > grasped and > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the > > sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', > > beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas > > into the impersonally personal pure being. > > > > > > But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is > > definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and > > activities to what is needed > > > for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies > > and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. > > Believe me, you will not regret > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the > > focus of attention.... " > > > Bill > > > > > > T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > > > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > > > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes > > awareness without effort. > > > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in > > 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' > > 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel like > > heavy weights to me. > > > > > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say > > about fear Toombaru responded using the word > > > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes > > 'grasping'. > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > > > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by > > the terms you indicate. > > > > > > I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not > > his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been > > > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of > > intensity... his *earnestness*. > > > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, > > " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " > > > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > > > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and > > the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly > > rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of > > > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to > > *do* something. It is simply an enormous > > > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be > > raised to some level to emerge from the clutches > > > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just > > lah-di-dah out of that. > > > > > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. > > But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an > > utmost intensity, an utmost > > > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a > > laid-back floating down the stream either! > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Bill ! > > > > > > And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops > > easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline practiced for > > decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " with > > every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, > > Nisargadatta's salvation is at > > > > > > Era > > > > > > > > > The purpose of earnestness is the realization that earnestness has no > effect. > > > toombaru > Not really, as the earnestness remains as a kind of intensity. Consider those photos of Nis's face. What you are seeing is the earnestness *burned in*... here I am, softly floating, with no *thing* anywhere... and yet an acuteness of intensity... an intensity that is not " about " anything... you are right in that nothing has any effect anywhere on anything. But what you say could be misleading to some... because the earnestness absolutely *is* a vital ingredient. What you say implies (or can be taken to imply) that earnestness is not important. Earnestness is vitally important. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Era Molnar " <n0ndual@> wrote: > > > > > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher > > states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of > > meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever > > subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the > > > levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under control. > > One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and > > habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the mind, its > > thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is > > grasped and > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the > > sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', > > beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas > > into the impersonally personal pure being. > > > > > > But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is > > definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and > > activities to what is needed > > > for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies > > and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. > > Believe me, you will not regret > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the > > focus of attention.... " > > > Bill > > > > > > T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > > > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > > > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes > > awareness without effort. > > > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in > > 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' > > 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel like > > heavy weights to me. > > > > > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say > > about fear Toombaru responded using the word > > > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes > > 'grasping'. > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > > > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by > > the terms you indicate. > > > > > > I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not > > his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been > > > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of > > intensity... his *earnestness*. > > > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, > > " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " > > > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > > > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and > > the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly > > rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of > > > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to > > *do* something. It is simply an enormous > > > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be > > raised to some level to emerge from the clutches > > > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just > > lah-di-dah out of that. > > > > > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. > > But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an > > utmost intensity, an utmost > > > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a > > laid-back floating down the stream either! > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Bill ! > > > > > > And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops > > easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline practiced for > > decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " with > > every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, > > Nisargadatta's salvation is at > > > > > > Era > > > > > > > > > The same earnestness applied to one's boot straps will proportedly > > lift one to the ceiling. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Let's not futz around Toomb! > The same earnestness applied to one's earnestness... > > whatever it is, return it to itself... > > Bill > One can apply upmost earnestness to eracing one's shadow with a stick as a good test to demonstrate the effectiveness of earnestness applied to the improvement of the illusory self. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Era Molnar " <n0ndual@> wrote: > > > > > > > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher > > > states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of > > > meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever > > > subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the > > > > levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under control. > > > One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and > > > habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > > the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the mind, its > > > thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is > > > grasped and > > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the > > > sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', > > > beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas > > > into the impersonally personal pure being. > > > > > > > > But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is > > > definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and > > > activities to what is needed > > > > for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies > > > and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. > > > Believe me, you will not regret > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That > > > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the > > > focus of attention.... " > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > > > > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > > > > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes > > > awareness without effort. > > > > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in > > > 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' > > > 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel like > > > heavy weights to me. > > > > > > > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say > > > about fear Toombaru responded using the word > > > > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes > > > 'grasping'. > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > > > > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by > > > the terms you indicate. > > > > > > > > I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not > > > his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been > > > > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of > > > intensity... his *earnestness*. > > > > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, > > > " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " > > > > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > > > > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and > > > the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly > > > rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of > > > > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to > > > *do* something. It is simply an enormous > > > > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be > > > raised to some level to emerge from the clutches > > > > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just > > > lah-di-dah out of that. > > > > > > > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. > > > But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an > > > utmost intensity, an utmost > > > > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a > > > laid-back floating down the stream either! > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Bill ! > > > > > > > > And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops > > > easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline practiced for > > > decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " with > > > every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, > > > Nisargadatta's salvation is at > > > > > > > > Era > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of earnestness is the realization that earnestness has no > > effect. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Not really, as the earnestness remains as a kind of intensity. > > Consider those photos of Nis's face. What you are seeing is > the earnestness *burned in*... > > here I am, softly floating, with no *thing* anywhere... > > and yet an acuteness of intensity... an intensity that is > not " about " anything... > > you are right in that nothing has any effect anywhere on > anything. But what you say could be misleading to some... > because the earnestness absolutely *is* a vital ingredient. > What you say implies (or can be taken to imply) that earnestness > is not important. Earnestness is vitally important. > > > Bill > To whom would earnestness apply? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Era Molnar " <n0ndual@> wrote: > > > > > > > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher > > > states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of > > > meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever > > > subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the > > > > levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under control. > > > One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and > > > habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > > the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the mind, its > > > thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is > > > grasped and > > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the > > > sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', > > > beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas > > > into the impersonally personal pure being. > > > > > > > > But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is > > > definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and > > > activities to what is needed > > > > for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies > > > and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. > > > Believe me, you will not regret > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That > > > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the > > > focus of attention.... " > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > > > > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > > > > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes > > > awareness without effort. > > > > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in > > > 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' > > > 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel like > > > heavy weights to me. > > > > > > > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say > > > about fear Toombaru responded using the word > > > > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes > > > 'grasping'. > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > > > > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as implied by > > > the terms you indicate. > > > > > > > > I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not > > > his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been > > > > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of > > > intensity... his *earnestness*. > > > > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, > > > " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " > > > > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > > > > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible intensity, and > > > the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly > > > rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of > > > > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of straining to > > > *do* something. It is simply an enormous > > > > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really must be > > > raised to some level to emerge from the clutches > > > > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just > > > lah-di-dah out of that. > > > > > > > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. > > > But I also know from my own experience that to break free requires an > > > utmost intensity, an utmost > > > > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a > > > laid-back floating down the stream either! > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Bill ! > > > > > > > > And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops > > > easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline practiced for > > > decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " with > > > every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, > > > Nisargadatta's salvation is at > > > > > > > > Era > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same earnestness applied to one's boot straps will proportedly > > > lift one to the ceiling. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > Let's not futz around Toomb! > > The same earnestness applied to one's earnestness... > > > > whatever it is, return it to itself... > > > > Bill > One can apply upmost earnestness to eracing one's shadow with a stick > as a good test to demonstrate the effectiveness of earnestness applied > to the improvement of the illusory self. > > > toombaru > If you are reading the discussion of earnestness (by Nis) as a *means* to be applied, the effectiveness of which can be assessed, then you are missing what he says thereof completely! Earnestness, as he speaks of it, is the ultimate intangible. It does not even exist, except as a burning unspeakable. Know that burning and know the fire that can never be extinguished. Know that burning and know that the means and the end are one. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Era Molnar " <n0ndual@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > " pliantheart " <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > > Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > B: Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher > > > > states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of > > > > meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever > > > > subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the > > > > > levels left behind. In a way it is like having death under > control. > > > > One begins with the lowest levels: social circumstances, customs and > > > > habits; physical surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > > > the body, the senses, their sensations and perceptions; the > mind, its > > > > thoughts and feelings; until the entire mechanism of personality is > > > > grasped and > > > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is reached when the > > > > sense of identity goes beyond the 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond > 'so-l-am', > > > > beyond 'I-am-the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all ideas > > > > into the impersonally personal pure being. > > > > > > > > > > But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is > > > > definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and > > > > activities to what is needed > > > > > for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies > > > > and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. > > > > Believe me, you will not regret > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: I Am That > > > > > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art of shifting the > > > > focus of attention.... " > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > T: Meditation and apperception occur concurrently. > > > > > One is not the cause or effect of the other. > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > N: Perhaps any differences may only be in language (?) > > > > > I like the word 'apperception' because for me it describes > > > > awareness without effort. > > > > > Where I see effort, for example, in the Nisargadatta piece is in > > > > 'without losing one's grip'... 'like having death under control.' > > > > 'grip'...'control'...'grasped and firmly held' these words feel > like > > > > heavy weights to me. > > > > > > > > > > If I may bring this in, when I asked what Nisargadatta would say > > > > about fear Toombaru responded using the word > > > > > 'apprehend' another word which I find heavy because it describes > > > > 'grasping'. > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > > B: Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > > > > > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort as > implied by > > > > the terms you indicate. > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking recently that what I got from Nisargadatta was not > > > > his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not been > > > > > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push of > > > > intensity... his *earnestness*. > > > > > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And when he says, > > > > " ...you must be energetic when you take to meditation, " > > > > > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > > > > > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible > intensity, and > > > > the intensity itself is not effort. It is an intensity that boldly > > > > rejects the lulling comfort of the routine, of > > > > > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense of > straining to > > > > *do* something. It is simply an enormous > > > > > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level really > must be > > > > raised to some level to emerge from the clutches > > > > > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not just > > > > lah-di-dah out of that. > > > > > > > > > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what you are saying. > > > > But I also know from my own experience that to break free > requires an > > > > utmost intensity, an utmost > > > > > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it certainly isn't a > > > > laid-back floating down the stream either! > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Bill ! > > > > > > > > > > And that earnestness, Nisargadatta's earnestness equals and tops > > > > easy all the efforts and yogic tapas burning discipline > practiced for > > > > decades. It is this stance to be earnest with holding the " I AM " > with > > > > every breath without pretence and mind BS where salvation, > > > > Nisargadatta's salvation is at > > > > > > > > > > Era > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of earnestness is the realization that earnestness has no > > > effect. > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > Not really, as the earnestness remains as a kind of intensity. > > > > Consider those photos of Nis's face. What you are seeing is > > the earnestness *burned in*... > > > > here I am, softly floating, with no *thing* anywhere... > > > > and yet an acuteness of intensity... an intensity that is > > not " about " anything... > > > > you are right in that nothing has any effect anywhere on > > anything. But what you say could be misleading to some... > > because the earnestness absolutely *is* a vital ingredient. > > What you say implies (or can be taken to imply) that earnestness > > is not important. Earnestness is vitally important. > > > > > > Bill > > > > To whom would earnestness apply? > > toombaru > to no one! certainly that is clear! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart wrote: > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into > > the higher states of consciousness and finally go > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler > > levels, without losing one's grip on the levels > > left > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: social > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of the > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > perceptions; > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond the > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond 'I-am- > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond all > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure being. > > But > > you must be energetic when you take to meditation. > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit > > your interests and activities to what is needed > > for > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all > > your > > energies and time for breaking the wall your mind > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > regret. > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > I Am That > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the art > > of > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > Bill > > > Sounds likes lots of effort to me. > > Noel ....to loose ignorance.....take normally some kind of " effort " .... the one " who " is satisfied with ignorance....can stay there.... forever... without any effort.....true.... there are, in reality, no " others " inside the dream bubble..... ....even no Gurus.... (no light...where there is darkness) Marc Ps: but meditation is of help....for some entities....to have a look outside the dream-bubble > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 In the above quote, Nisargadatta seems to be advising individual entities that have volition. I prefer his later books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > > > --- dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , Noel > > <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce > > into > > > > the higher states of consciousness and finally > > go > > > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > > > shifting the focus of attention to ever > > subtler > > > > levels, without losing one's grip on the > > levels > > > > left > > > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: > > social > > > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > the > > > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > > > perceptions; > > > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond > > the > > > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond > > 'I-am- > > > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond > > all > > > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure > > being. > > > > But > > > > you must be energetic when you take to > > meditation. > > > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. > > Limit > > > > your interests and activities to what is > > needed > > > > for > > > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save > > all > > > > your > > > > energies and time for breaking the wall your > > mind > > > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > > > regret. > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > > > I Am That > > > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the > > art > > > > of > > > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > Sounds likes lots of effort to me. > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > ...to loose ignorance.....take normally some kind of > > " effort " .... > > > > the one " who " is satisfied with ignorance....can > > stay there.... > > > > forever... > > > > without any effort.....true.... > > > > there are, in reality, no " others " inside the dream > > bubble..... > > > > ...even no Gurus.... > > > > (no light...where there is darkness) > > > > Marc > > > > > > Ps: but meditation is of help....for some > > entities....to have a look > > outside the dream-bubble > > > Hi Marc, > > I believe I understand what you are describing and I > do not disagree with you. > > I think there is a language issue in this as in most > discussions. Just finished a message to Bill, for > example, in which I wrote something like I did not > mean 'applied' in the sense of 'effort'. I think > people who do not understand Nisargadatta would be > scratching their heads and thinking what the hell is > she talking about? > > > > Some here are attempting to communicate about > something that does not lend itself to language. > > Noel yes.... as for example meditation..... meditation can't be realy explained by words.... just like the " real Self " can't be explained by words... those things are behind mind.... see you there... Marc > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , Noel > > > <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce > > > into > > > > > the higher states of consciousness and finally > > > go > > > > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > > > > shifting the focus of attention to ever > > > subtler > > > > > levels, without losing one's grip on the > > > levels > > > > > left > > > > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > > > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: > > > social > > > > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > > > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > > the > > > > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > > > > perceptions; > > > > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > > > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > > > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond > > > the > > > > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond > > > 'I-am- > > > > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond > > > all > > > > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure > > > being. > > > > > But > > > > > you must be energetic when you take to > > > meditation. > > > > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. > > > Limit > > > > > your interests and activities to what is > > > needed > > > > > for > > > > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save > > > all > > > > > your > > > > > energies and time for breaking the wall your > > > mind > > > > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > > > > regret. > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > > > > I Am That > > > > > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the > > > art > > > > > of > > > > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds likes lots of effort to me. > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > ...to loose ignorance.....take normally some kind of > > > " effort " .... > > > > > > the one " who " is satisfied with ignorance....can > > > stay there.... > > > > > > forever... > > > > > > without any effort.....true.... > > > > > > there are, in reality, no " others " inside the dream > > > bubble..... > > > > > > ...even no Gurus.... > > > > > > (no light...where there is darkness) > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > Ps: but meditation is of help....for some > > > entities....to have a look > > > outside the dream-bubble > > > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > I believe I understand what you are describing and I > > do not disagree with you. > > > > I think there is a language issue in this as in most > > discussions. Just finished a message to Bill, for > > example, in which I wrote something like I did not > > mean 'applied' in the sense of 'effort'. I think > > people who do not understand Nisargadatta would be > > scratching their heads and thinking what the hell is > > she talking about? > > > > > > > > Some here are attempting to communicate about > > something that does not lend itself to language. > > > > Noel > > yes.... > > as for example meditation..... > meditation can't be realy explained by words.... > > just like the " real Self " can't be explained by words... > > those things are behind mind.... > > see you there... > > Marc Namaste all, I'd say meditation is an open mind and an open heart that bears well the infinite range of This Is, including all our personal stuff/baggage and the world-at-large with its heart-breaking reality. Anna > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > > > --- dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , Noel > > <noel_beau@> wrote: > > <snip> > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > > > I believe I understand what you are describing and > > I > > > do not disagree with you. > > > > > > I think there is a language issue in this as in > > most > > > discussions. Just finished a message to Bill, for > > > example, in which I wrote something like I did not > > > mean 'applied' in the sense of 'effort'. I think > > > people who do not understand Nisargadatta would be > > > scratching their heads and thinking what the hell > > is > > > she talking about? > > > > > > > > > > > > Some here are attempting to communicate about > > > something that does not lend itself to language. > > > > > > Noel > > > > yes.... > > > > as for example meditation..... > > meditation can't be realy explained by words.... > > > > just like the " real Self " can't be explained by > > words... > > > > those things are behind mind.... > > > > see you there... > > > > Marc > > > I am t/here... > > Noel exactly > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Noel > > > > <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce > > > > into > > > > > > the higher states of consciousness and finally > > > > go > > > > > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > > > > > shifting the focus of attention to ever > > > > subtler > > > > > > levels, without losing one's grip on the > > > > levels > > > > > > left > > > > > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > > > > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: > > > > social > > > > > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > > > > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > > > the > > > > > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > > > > > perceptions; > > > > > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > > > > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > > > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > > > > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond > > > > the > > > > > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond > > > > 'I-am- > > > > > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond > > > > all > > > > > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure > > > > being. > > > > > > But > > > > > > you must be energetic when you take to > > > > meditation. > > > > > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. > > > > Limit > > > > > > your interests and activities to what is > > > > needed > > > > > > for > > > > > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save > > > > all > > > > > > your > > > > > > energies and time for breaking the wall your > > > > mind > > > > > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > > > > > regret. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > > > > > I Am That > > > > > > > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the > > > > art > > > > > > of > > > > > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds likes lots of effort to me. > > > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > > > > ...to loose ignorance.....take normally some kind of > > > > " effort " .... > > > > > > > > the one " who " is satisfied with ignorance....can > > > > stay there.... > > > > > > > > forever... > > > > > > > > without any effort.....true.... > > > > > > > > there are, in reality, no " others " inside the dream > > > > bubble..... > > > > > > > > ...even no Gurus.... > > > > > > > > (no light...where there is darkness) > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > Ps: but meditation is of help....for some > > > > entities....to have a look > > > > outside the dream-bubble > > > > > > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > > > I believe I understand what you are describing and I > > > do not disagree with you. > > > > > > I think there is a language issue in this as in most > > > discussions. Just finished a message to Bill, for > > > example, in which I wrote something like I did not > > > mean 'applied' in the sense of 'effort'. I think > > > people who do not understand Nisargadatta would be > > > scratching their heads and thinking what the hell is > > > she talking about? > > > > > > > > > > > > Some here are attempting to communicate about > > > something that does not lend itself to language. > > > > > > Noel > > > > yes.... > > > > as for example meditation..... > > meditation can't be realy explained by words.... > > > > just like the " real Self " can't be explained by words... > > > > those things are behind mind.... > > > > see you there... > > > > Marc > > > Namaste all, > > I'd say meditation is an open mind and an open heart that bears well > the infinite range of This Is, including all our personal > stuff/baggage and the world-at-large with its heart-breaking reality. > > Anna > > ....reading the " chapter 19 " .... there is written/described....the relation to God to the world... so i'd say.... meditation is a bath into God.... Marc Ps: after some baths....and nice (inner) cleaning..... ignorance/dream....dissolve ...one day.... completely (then there is no more " personal stuff.... " ....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 > > > > Now I see where you are coming from re " effort " . > > > > And I relate to your observations re apparent effort > > as implied by the terms you indicate. > > > > I was thinking recently that what I got from > > Nisargadatta > > was not his " method " (the " I am inquiry " has not > > been > > my approach); what I got from him was the extra push > > of intensity... his *earnestness*. > > > > Now, earnestness certainly can imply effort. And > > when he > > says, " ...you must be energetic when you take to > > meditation, " > > that can certainly sound like effort involved. > > > > But in my view he is really indicating an incredible > > intensity, > > and the intensity itself is not effort. It is an > > intensity > > that boldly rejects the lulling comfort of the > > routine, of > > the customary. But it is not an effort in the sense > > of > > straining to *do* something. It is simply an > > enormous > > devotion to being with what is. And the energy level > > really > > must be raised to some level to emerge from the > > clutches > > of the conditioned patterns of living. One does not > > just > > lah-di-dah out of that. > > > > So, yes I completely relate to the spirit of what > > you are > > saying. But I also know from my own experience that > > to > > break free requires an utmost intensity, an utmost > > seriousness... I don't call that effort, but it > > certainly > > isn't a laid-back floating down the stream either! > > > > Bill > > You are quite clear. I find no disagreement with your > description here. > > This may be a duh for you, but for me the question > arises as to what the earnestness is in the service > of. Or, to what is the earnestness applied? For the > record I am not using applied in the sense of effort. In a sense the earnestness in in service of itself. It is in the service of whatever it is that " is earnest " ... call it the " I am " if you like... In another post I wrote: " Earnestness, as he speaks of it, is the ultimate intangible. It does not even exist, except as a burning unspeakable. Know that burning and know the fire that can never be extinguished. Know that burning and know that the means and the end are one. " That is why it doesn't matter what the " method " is as long as there is complete earnestness. And note that complete earnestness = complete honesty. And not how all of this boils down to an utter directness... > You seem to be saying here earnestness drives > de-conditioning. Oh, I really like that! Yes, it is what pops the bubble of containment. > If that is correct are you then > suggesting that conditioning actually dematerializes > and results in energetic change via earnestness? yes... conditioning is just energy caught up in closed loops. When those closed loops are broken up then the energy is liberated. Bill > Noel > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Noel > > > > > <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce > > > > > into > > > > > > > the higher states of consciousness and finally > > > > > go > > > > > > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > > > > > > shifting the focus of attention to ever > > > > > subtler > > > > > > > levels, without losing one's grip on the > > > > > levels > > > > > > > left > > > > > > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > > > > > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: > > > > > social > > > > > > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > > > > > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > > > > the > > > > > > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > > > > > > perceptions; > > > > > > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > > > > > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > > > > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > > > > > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond > > > > > the > > > > > > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond > > > > > 'I-am- > > > > > > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond > > > > > all > > > > > > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure > > > > > being. > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > you must be energetic when you take to > > > > > meditation. > > > > > > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. > > > > > Limit > > > > > > > your interests and activities to what is > > > > > needed > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save > > > > > all > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > energies and time for breaking the wall your > > > > > mind > > > > > > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > > > > > > regret. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > > > > > > I Am That > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the > > > > > art > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds likes lots of effort to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...to loose ignorance.....take normally some kind of > > > > > " effort " .... > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " is satisfied with ignorance....can > > > > > stay there.... > > > > > > > > > > forever... > > > > > > > > > > without any effort.....true.... > > > > > > > > > > there are, in reality, no " others " inside the dream > > > > > bubble..... > > > > > > > > > > ...even no Gurus.... > > > > > > > > > > (no light...where there is darkness) > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ps: but meditation is of help....for some > > > > > entities....to have a look > > > > > outside the dream-bubble > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > > > > > I believe I understand what you are describing and I > > > > do not disagree with you. > > > > > > > > I think there is a language issue in this as in most > > > > discussions. Just finished a message to Bill, for > > > > example, in which I wrote something like I did not > > > > mean 'applied' in the sense of 'effort'. I think > > > > people who do not understand Nisargadatta would be > > > > scratching their heads and thinking what the hell is > > > > she talking about? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some here are attempting to communicate about > > > > something that does not lend itself to language. > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > yes.... > > > > > > as for example meditation..... > > > meditation can't be realy explained by words.... > > > > > > just like the " real Self " can't be explained by words... > > > > > > those things are behind mind.... > > > > > > see you there... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > Namaste all, > > > > I'd say meditation is an open mind and an open heart that bears well > > the infinite range of This Is, including all our personal > > stuff/baggage and the world-at-large with its heart-breaking > reality. > > > > Anna > > > > > > ...reading the " chapter 19 " .... > > there is written/described....the relation to God to the world... > > so i'd say.... > > meditation is a bath into God.... > > Marc > > > Ps: after some baths....and nice (inner) cleaning..... > > ignorance/dream....dissolve ...one day.... > > completely > > (then there is no more " personal stuff.... " ....) > yes...but like the last lines in Gladiator, as Juba buries Maximus' statues: ....not yet...not yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Noel > > > > > > <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- pliantheart <pliantheart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > the higher states of consciousness and finally > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of > > > > > > > > shifting the focus of attention to ever > > > > > > subtler > > > > > > > > levels, without losing one's grip on the > > > > > > levels > > > > > > > > left > > > > > > > > behind. In a way it is like having death under > > > > > > > > control. One begins with the lowest levels: > > > > > > social > > > > > > > > circumstances, customs and habits; physical > > > > > > > > surroundings, the posture and the breathing of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > body, the senses, their sensations and > > > > > > > > perceptions; > > > > > > > > the mind, its thoughts and feelings; until the > > > > > > > > entire mechanism of personality is grasped and > > > > > > > > firmly held. The final stage of meditation is > > > > > > > > reached when the sense of identity goes beyond > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > 'I-am-so-and-so', beyond 'so-l-am', beyond > > > > > > 'I-am- > > > > > > > > the-witness-only', beyond 'there-is', beyond > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > ideas into the impersonally personal pure > > > > > > being. > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > you must be energetic when you take to > > > > > > meditation. > > > > > > > > It is definitely not a part-time occupation. > > > > > > Limit > > > > > > > > your interests and activities to what is > > > > > > needed > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > you and your dependents' barest needs. Save > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > energies and time for breaking the wall your > > > > > > mind > > > > > > > > had built around you. Believe me, you will not > > > > > > > > regret. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj > > > > > > > > I Am That > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note especially, " The art of meditation is the > > > > > > art > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > shifting the focus of attention.... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds likes lots of effort to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...to loose ignorance.....take normally some kind of > > > > > > " effort " .... > > > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " is satisfied with ignorance....can > > > > > > stay there.... > > > > > > > > > > > > forever... > > > > > > > > > > > > without any effort.....true.... > > > > > > > > > > > > there are, in reality, no " others " inside the dream > > > > > > bubble..... > > > > > > > > > > > > ...even no Gurus.... > > > > > > > > > > > > (no light...where there is darkness) > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ps: but meditation is of help....for some > > > > > > entities....to have a look > > > > > > outside the dream-bubble > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > > > > > > > I believe I understand what you are describing and I > > > > > do not disagree with you. > > > > > > > > > > I think there is a language issue in this as in most > > > > > discussions. Just finished a message to Bill, for > > > > > example, in which I wrote something like I did not > > > > > mean 'applied' in the sense of 'effort'. I think > > > > > people who do not understand Nisargadatta would be > > > > > scratching their heads and thinking what the hell is > > > > > she talking about? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some here are attempting to communicate about > > > > > something that does not lend itself to language. > > > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > yes.... > > > > > > > > as for example meditation..... > > > > meditation can't be realy explained by words.... > > > > > > > > just like the " real Self " can't be explained by words... > > > > > > > > those things are behind mind.... > > > > > > > > see you there... > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > Namaste all, > > > > > > I'd say meditation is an open mind and an open heart that bears > well > > > the infinite range of This Is, including all our personal > > > stuff/baggage and the world-at-large with its heart-breaking > > reality. > > > > > > Anna > > > > > > > > > > ...reading the " chapter 19 " .... > > > > there is written/described....the relation to God to the world... > > > > so i'd say.... > > > > meditation is a bath into God.... > > > > Marc > > > > > > Ps: after some baths....and nice (inner) cleaning..... > > > > ignorance/dream....dissolve ...one day.... > > > > completely > > > > (then there is no more " personal stuff.... " ....) > > > > > > > yes...but like the last lines in Gladiator, > as Juba buries Maximus' statues: > > ...not yet...not yet... ....yes.... insteed to have a nice meditation.... people tend to see movies.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.