Guest guest Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman@> wrote: > > > > >Fear and suffering can probably be avoided. There are reasons to > > >believe that fear is caused by a chemical imbalance in body and mind. > > > > > >al. > > > > Hi Al! > > > > Why should it be avoided when the very attempt to avoid it is the > > root for the suffering? > > > > Greetings > > Stefan > > > > Hi Stefan, > > In a healthy state our emotions go up and down. In an unhealthy state > there is a constant emotional background of a 'down' state. Avoidance > does not heal this gap. Only a returning to balance is the cure. > Stress-related diseases like cancer and heart diseases are a huge > problem in developed countries. I suspect that the root cause of this > problem is the constant subconscious load of unprocessed emotions. > > al. > not to mention unprocessed multinationals spilling their toxins, torture and genocide all over the place: there is such a thing here, on this caravan, no? .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , " skywhilds " <skywords wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman@> wrote: > > > > > > >Fear and suffering can probably be avoided. There are reasons to > > > >believe that fear is caused by a chemical imbalance in body and > mind. > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > Hi Al! > > > > > > Why should it be avoided when the very attempt to avoid it is the > > > root for the suffering? > > > > > > Greetings > > > Stefan > > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > In a healthy state our emotions go up and down. In an unhealthy state > > there is a constant emotional background of a 'down' state. Avoidance > > does not heal this gap. Only a returning to balance is the cure. > > Stress-related diseases like cancer and heart diseases are a huge > > problem in developed countries. I suspect that the root cause of this > > problem is the constant subconscious load of unprocessed emotions. > > > > al. > > > > > not to mention unprocessed > > multinationals spilling their > > toxins, torture and genocide > > all over the place: > > there is such a thing here, > > on this caravan, no? > > > > > ... > Toxins in food, air and water probably are very damaging to a body that is already weakened by emotional and mental stress. However, a stress-free mind and body are likely to be much more resilient to those kinds of things. I think we will begin to see more and more scientific reports about how the mind and our emotions affect our health. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " skywhilds " <skywords@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman@> wrote: > > > > > > > > >Fear and suffering can probably be avoided. There are reasons to > > > > >believe that fear is caused by a chemical imbalance in body and > > mind. > > > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > > > Hi Al! > > > > > > > > Why should it be avoided when the very attempt to avoid it is the > > > > root for the suffering? > > > > > > > > Greetings > > > > Stefan > > > > > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > > > In a healthy state our emotions go up and down. In an unhealthy state > > > there is a constant emotional background of a 'down' state. Avoidance > > > does not heal this gap. Only a returning to balance is the cure. > > > Stress-related diseases like cancer and heart diseases are a huge > > > problem in developed countries. I suspect that the root cause of this > > > problem is the constant subconscious load of unprocessed emotions. > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > not to mention unprocessed > > > > multinationals spilling their > > > > toxins, torture and genocide > > > > all over the place: > > > > there is such a thing here, > > > > on this caravan, no? > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > Toxins in food, air and water probably are very damaging to a body > that is already weakened by emotional and mental stress. However, a > stress-free mind and body are likely to be much more resilient to > those kinds of things. > > I think we will begin to see more and more scientific reports about > how the mind and our emotions affect our health. > > al. > sure. NO question. but depleted uranium and such stuff as the twin towers were made of, breathed into the lungs, are a whole nother die mention. *psychosomatic* is used by the gov and other predators to con seal the true power of siva (the destroyer of universes). .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , " skywhilds " <skywords wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman@> wrote: > > > > > > >Fear and suffering can probably be avoided. There are reasons to > > > >believe that fear is caused by a chemical imbalance in body and > mind. > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > Hi Al! > > > > > > Why should it be avoided when the very attempt to avoid it is the > > > root for the suffering? > > > > > > Greetings > > > Stefan > > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > In a healthy state our emotions go up and down. In an unhealthy state > > there is a constant emotional background of a 'down' state. Avoidance > > does not heal this gap. Only a returning to balance is the cure. > > Stress-related diseases like cancer and heart diseases are a huge > > problem in developed countries. I suspect that the root cause of this > > problem is the constant subconscious load of unprocessed emotions. > > > > al. > > > > > not to mention unprocessed > > multinationals spilling their > > toxins, torture and genocide > > all over the place: > > there is such a thing here, > > on this caravan, no? > > > > > ... and no room at the caravanserai.......where's Jesus to be born these days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > --- Stefan <s.petersilge wrote: >>This is again a conception. >Yes it is but that is not my point. All " points " are conceptions, this was my point. Can I have points too? You are expressing your longing to be understood, so do you really want to be understood or do you merely want acknowledgment? >I am not certain I understand what you mean by trying >'to discover something outside of thought' but for me, >as is, it is not related to what I was attempting to >discuss. I am not interested in discussions. I have taken you very seriously because I certainly know how fear feels. I remember that you have written that you have sensed fear apart from your thoughts - as a grip on your body. I said that the grip (and I certainly know that feeling!) is happening in the mind. Even when one thinks it is independent from the mind. The very " sensing " is a function of the mind. My suggestion was that you try it yourself. It is not theoretical. It is simple and very practical. It has helped me immensely. It has also helped me how Nisargadatta continously has pointed to the illusory nature of our conceptual worlds and how earnest quest can losen the grip... so to say. Discussing the pros and cons does not lead anywhere if it is refused to look at the issue itself. But if this sounds all greek to you, no problem. Just ignore me... go on reading here for a while, and try to grasp what Nisargadatta was saying. You have said something about " absolute truth " before. I do not believe in an absolute truth. But maybe so much I can say: anybodies own view may be his absolute truth at that moment... therefor you have and always had my deepest respect. All the best Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > --- Stefan <s.petersilge wrote: >>This is again a conception. >Yes it is but that is not my point. All " points " are conceptions, this was my point. Can I have points too? You are expressing your longing to be understood, so do you really want to be understood or do you merely want acknowledgment? >I am not certain I understand what you mean by trying >'to discover something outside of thought' but for me, >as is, it is not related to what I was attempting to >discuss. I am not interested in discussions. I have taken you very seriously because I certainly know how fear feels. I remember that you have written that you have sensed fear apart from your thoughts - as a grip on your body. I said that the grip (and I certainly know that feeling!) is happening in the mind. Even when one thinks it is independent from the mind. The very " sensing " is a function of the mind. My suggestion was that you try it yourself. It is not theoretical. It is simple and very practical. It has helped me immensely. It has also helped me how Nisargadatta continously has pointed to the illusory nature of our conceptual worlds and how earnest quest can losen the grip... so to say. Discussing the pros and cons does not lead anywhere if it is refused to look at the issue itself. But if this sounds all greek to you, no problem. Just ignore me... go on reading here for a while, and try to grasp what Nisargadatta was saying. You have said something about " absolute truth " before. I do not believe in an absolute truth. But maybe so much I can say: anybodies own view may be his absolute truth at that moment... therefor you have and always had my deepest respect. All the best Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: >It is believed that animals (including human beings) >have sensory apparatus to 'sense' danger and that it >does not involve thought. Human beings interpret >those sensations, but not necessarily while they are >taking place. Jasou Noel, I simply will ignore the ... hmmm ... personal part of your last posting. But I am glad you brought up the above point. Yes, I agree. Myriads of things are happening to us without involving thought. Spontaneous reaction takes place, so I have to agree: there must be a sensing process involved. I was not clear enough with my terminology. But there is still my point: if one would not reflect what happened, and be it only milliseconds later, then one simply would not know about it. Moreover, if there is no knowledge about what happened there is no way to call it " fear " . When we are conceptualizing and do stick to it as if the concept ( " fear " ) is the underlying event itself ... only then we can say " I sense the grip of fear on my body " . So I conclude, maybe the suffering ( " grip " ) is caused by the way we think. And therefor it is useful to closely watch that " fear " . Maybe I cannot make myself clear enough to you. But please be assured, this is no problem for me and you do not need to feel offended either. I repeat that different views have my deepest respect. My own views have changed over time... they will go on changing. Ta leme Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 endaxi, Stefan --- Stefan <s.petersilge wrote: > Nisargadatta , Noel > <noel_beau wrote: > > >It is believed that animals (including human > beings) > >have sensory apparatus to 'sense' danger and that > it > >does not involve thought. Human beings interpret > >those sensations, but not necessarily while they > are > >taking place. > > Jasou Noel, > > I simply will ignore the ... hmmm ... personal part > of your last > posting. But I am glad you brought up the above > point. Yes, I agree. > Myriads of things are happening to us without > involving thought. > > Spontaneous reaction takes place, so I have to > agree: there must be a > sensing process involved. I was not clear enough > with my terminology. > But there is still my point: if one would not > reflect what happened, > and be it only milliseconds later, then one simply > would not know > about it. Moreover, if there is no knowledge about > what happened there > is no way to call it " fear " . Of course. There would also be no way to communicate on email lists. Some things are givens. At times, it appears from my own experimentation there is no reflection. This seems to occur in extreme circumstances. Without thought, precisely the right physical response can occur as well. It could be argued this all takes place so quickly one is not aware of a thought-process. I tend not to agree with this but admit it is possible. > > When we are conceptualizing and do stick to it as if > the concept > ( " fear " ) is the underlying event itself ... only > then we can say " I > sense the grip of fear on my body " . So I conclude, > maybe the suffering > ( " grip " ) is caused by the way we think. And therefor > it is useful to > closely watch that " fear " . Your use of the word 'we' suggests you are insisting that I and everyone else shares your experience. Why do you use 'we'? Here is the original message I wrote responding to toombaru: > > I am not sure how to write what I want to write in > > response to this. Here goes, though. I think > when > > one is not in a state of fear it is quite clear > and > > easy to understand what it means 'to apprehend the > > nature of the one who is frightened'. I think > when > > one is in a state of fear it is a different > matter. > > To then apply, earnestly would seem to mean to > > simply look at the thoughts related to the fear > state. > > But...the fear state in my experience is not only > > experienced as thought. It actually grips the > body. > > See what I mean? > > > > Noel You have re conceptualized what I wrote to suit your way of seeing things, which is fine, but not accurate. I did not view the fear state as the underlying event. There would be something else driving it, and that would be the underlying event. The fear state would be a response to an underlying event(s). Then you go on to quote me and you do not quote me accurately. Is this why you delete parts of messages? You quote me as having written: " I > sense the grip of fear on my body " . This is not what I wrote at all. I wrote, as above: It actually grips the > body. For me these two statements are quite different and have different meanings. > > Maybe I cannot make myself clear enough to you. But > please be assured, > this is no problem for me and you do not need to > feel offended either. > I repeat that different views have my deepest > respect. My own views > have changed over time... they will go on changing. > > Ta leme > Stefan You have made yourself quite clear to me, Stefan. Noel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > >Then you go on to quote me and you do not quote me >accurately. Is this why you delete parts of messages? >You quote me as having written: > " I sense the grip of fear on my body " . >This is not what I wrote at all. I wrote, as above: >It actually grips the body. Hi Noel, paraxeno, how did it come to your mind that the above was a quote? I have used it as an example to demonstrate how " we " (us humans, me included) take conceptualizations for the real, and thus create unnecessary suffering. Whenever I quote somebody I mark it with those little >> thingies andmention the poster. And I quote only the relevant parts to keep the messages transparent. I had quoted you like this: >But...the fear state in my experience is not only >experienced as thought. It actually grips the >body. This was the part that provoked my disagreement. Again: " Fear... gripping the body " can only be the result of conceptualization, because fear is a concept and concepts can only be experienced as thought. Therefor I objected on your sentence: > " the fear state in my experience is NOT ONLY experienced as thought " I also could have said you are wrong because " experiencing " is not possible without recognition through thought. Maybe for you this sounds like splitting hairs, but to me it is essential for the understanding of Nisargadattas approach. I think I am simple and clear on that point. You have said that you have a different view (which I respect) but you have not rationally objected. So I suggest we just leave it there. As I said, my aim is not discussion for discussions sake. Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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