Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 If you are in this state, the state where you make the realisation that every other self is not different from yours, except that your other selfs may be in a different state of awareness, still, your state is that all these other selves are yourself the same way you are your self, than what sense does it make to rape another self, in the end it is yourself you are raping, this is equal to raping yourself. Would you rape yourself knowingly ? Would you kill yourself knowingly ? There are two excuses to make: One is if you are not in this state where you see yourself in everyone, the other is, if the self you want to kill or rape, your second, other or different self, is better of being killed or raped, as long as you kill and rape with the full awareness that you are killing and raping no other person than yourself, why not killing and raping yourself, if this is the experience you want your self to experience, go ahead kill and rape yourself, but remain aware, that you rape and kill no other being than yourself. " So, this stateless state sounds like it's not socially desirable unless one first learns to live as a good, socially adjusted person. " This state is desirable because if you think that the entire society is yourself, you think for the good of the entire society and not for your own good, if it is good for the entire society to kill yourself, kill yourself, if it is good for the entire society to rape yourself, rape yourself, but before you go around killing and raping yourself, ask me again if it is really good for the entire society if you go around killing and raping yourself. Syd Barret was never in the state that he identified himself with the entire society, except maybe when he wrote the song " interstellar overdirve " . Lulu Thus, it appears to me that being " good " or having " love " or any kind or beneficial quality has nothing to do with this state. You could anything. Is it possible that one could be a rapist, a mafia boss or Charles Manson, or some other equally anti-social being? Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > It seems that the stateless state is the original state, before we > were born. So unaware of itself. Then, as beingness emerges, it is > the child consciousness. Then later, if lucky, it becomes reflected > in consciousness as nothingness. Or something like that. > > Anyway, what I'm getting it is that since we are always in the > stateless state, and it is there all the time, if one will only see > it, that means it is available to all, at all times, without any > precepts or prerequirements. > > Thus, it appears to me that being " good " or having " love " or any > kind or beneficial quality has nothing to do with this state. You > could anything. Is it possible that one could be a rapist, a mafia > boss or Charles Manson, or some other equally anti-social being? > > I often wonder about Syd Barret, who died recently, from Pink Floyd. > He was perhaps the most famous pop recluse. The story goes that he > was an unusual youth, in that he always had the ability to hear > colours and see sounds. Later, he took lots of LSD and fell out of > his mind. He was changed forever, radically. But as his group later > wrote in their Album " Wish you were here " ...he reached for the > secret too soon. So, at that very young and immature age, he > suddenly came to know what he knows. And his life that followed is > an example of that. > > So, this stateless state sounds like it's not socially desirable > unless one first learns to live as a good, socially adjusted person. > I think even Niz said once to someone that you can't leave a mess on > one level before you move on from it. > > What do you have to say about that? windchimes reveal wind, invisible, become song. what else is hidden? new songs fill the windchimes' fractal berceuses ....whistling a lonely departure. Sleep has escaped him... .............bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Nisargadatta , Lulu Dong <lulu.dong wrote: > > > > If you are in this state, the state where you make the realisation that every other self is not different from yours, except that your other selfs may be in a different state of awareness, still, your state is that all these other selves are yourself the same way you are your self, than what sense does it make to rape another self, in the end it is yourself you are raping, this is equal to raping yourself. Would you rape yourself knowingly ? Would you kill yourself knowingly ? > > There are two excuses to make: One is if you are not in this state where you see yourself in everyone, the other is, if the self you want to kill or rape, your second, other or different self, is better of being killed or raped, as long as you kill and rape with the full awareness that you are killing and raping no other person than yourself, why not killing and raping yourself, if this is the experience you want your self to experience, go ahead kill and rape yourself, but remain aware, that you rape and kill no other being than yourself. > > " So, this stateless state sounds like it's not socially desirable > unless one first learns to live as a good, socially adjusted person. " > > This state is desirable because if you think that the entire society is yourself, you think for the good of the entire society and not for your own good, if it is good for the entire society to kill yourself, kill yourself, if it is good for the entire society to rape yourself, rape yourself, but before you go around killing and raping yourself, ask me again if it is really good for the entire society if you go around killing and raping yourself. Syd Barret was never in the state that he identified himself with the entire society, except maybe when he wrote the song " interstellar overdirve " . > > > Lulu > > > > > Thus, it appears to me that being " good " or having " love " or any > kind or beneficial quality has nothing to do with this state. You > could anything. Is it possible that one could be a rapist, a mafia > boss or Charles Manson, or some other equally anti-social being? LIVE WELL Give me something to chew upon, something to rend something to hold again close to my weeping, give me any semblance of any truth let me sink into the words between these lines of smotherings and drownings: If you would Know any answer how is it you could stay the gift? Words of Love mean nothing, say nothing, do nothing until your Heart is willing enough to Bear It's Own Truth To Live Well* Anna 6/25/05 *this is the truth of our own lives, our living, as we are continually determining it by our awareness in/as/of Love. The only dance there is, once we know who is the dancer, or who the dancer is...;-) > > > > > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 > > What do you have to say about that? > windchimes reveal wind, invisible, become song. what else is hidden? > > new songs fill the windchimes' fractal berceuses ....whistling a > lonely departure. Sleep has escaped him... > > .............bob > I shouldn't have asked...lol!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Killing and Rape was just an extreme example. We do other, lesser harmful things, but still not good. And sometimes we do them to ourselves. Niz, on instruction from his Guru, put special effort into appearing religious, and even before he was realised, he was spiritually inclined and had a genuine desire to help others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > > > > What do you have to say about that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > windchimes reveal wind, invisible, become song. what else is hidden? > > > > new songs fill the windchimes' fractal berceuses ....whistling a > > lonely departure. Sleep has escaped him... > > > > .............bob > > > I shouldn't have asked...lol!!! > ;-) .......you didn't. ........b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " > <jasondedonno@> wrote: > > > > > > > > What do you have to say about that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > windchimes reveal wind, invisible, become song. what else is > hidden? > > > > > > new songs fill the windchimes' fractal berceuses ....whistling a > > > lonely departure. Sleep has escaped him... > > > > > > .............bob > > > > > I shouldn't have asked...lol!!! > ;-) > > .......you didn't. > > ........b lol > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 I read that someone asked Alan Watts why he was still an alcoholic. He was (supposed) to have replied: " Why should I deny the experience of alcoholism Hic! to all-that-is? " Ok, we do harmful things to ourselves, than we are not realised but stupid. beside, having a guru and being spiritually inclined doesn't make us a realised person. Lulu How low will we go? Check out Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Nisargadatta , Lulu Dong <lulu.dong wrote: > > I read that someone asked Alan Watts why he was still an > alcoholic. He was (supposed) to have replied: " Why should I deny > the experience of alcoholism Hic! to all-that-is? " > > Ok, we do harmful things to ourselves, than we are not realised but stupid. > > beside, having a guru and being spiritually inclined doesn't make us a realised person. > > Lulu that' not too hard to realize....after a few martinis. .......bob > > How low will we go? Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 > Have you read " Siddhartha " Hermann Hesse? I think it > may be helpful with your questions. > Yes. I did read Siddhartha by Hesse. I'm more of a Steppenwolfe... Did you read the story of the Buddha without love? I think it was in Zen Flesh and Zen bones, but can't be sure. It was a long time ago since I read it. Woman falls in love with Buddhist. Buddhist rejects here advances and treats her coldly. Woman kills him. What about the extremists who bombed the World Trade Centre. What kind of consciousness had they? That's not a rhetorical question... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Samurai? Shao-Lin? And then there's the Biblical story of Satan. Just a story but is there any meaning behind it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 >The use of drugs and alcohol provide glaring examples >of people using the wrong means. So there is a right and wrong, and a means. There are precepts, there are requirements. There is a process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > >The use of drugs and alcohol provide glaring examples > >of people using the wrong means. > > So there is a right and wrong, and a means. There are precepts, there > are requirements. There is a process. whatever was the dream last night.....good or bad.... there is a waking up... sooner or later Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 In Mahayana Buddhism, monks train to to replace bad habits with good ones, as a prelude to realisation. I think it's called Sattva in Hinduism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 As you say this, i remember that when i had my first realisation, i was practicing some kind of balance, not on purpose dough, speaking in terms of karma, i was striving to be neither god nor bad, but in harmony, symbolically, for every sin in my life I gave 1000 dollars to a person in need, don't ask me why i did that, but later, I somewhat had the feeling that this balance was necessary for my realisation, and the better the balance, the better the realisation LOL, so yes, find your balance, before facing your inner devil. lulu In Mahayana Buddhism, monks train to to replace bad habits with good ones, as a prelude to realisation. I think it's called Sattva in Hinduism. Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno@> > wrote: > > > > >The use of drugs and alcohol provide glaring examples > > >of people using the wrong means. > > > > So there is a right and wrong, and a means. There are precepts, there > > are requirements. There is a process. > > > whatever was the dream last night.....good or bad.... > > there is a waking up... > > sooner or later > > > Marc > just see the dream as dream...and all is seen ....iietsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > > > --- jasondedonno <jasondedonno wrote: > > > >The use of drugs and alcohol provide glaring > > examples > > >of people using the wrong means. > > > > So there is a right and wrong, and a means. There > > are precepts, there > > are requirements. There is a process. > > > Why does means necessarily imply right or wrong? > > In terms of precepts as a particular course of action, > I had difficulty with the implication of sequencing in > your original message and finding difficulty in > expressing here again. Perhaps it is only the way I > am perceiving what you are writing about but you seem > to be suggesting a very rigid course. Whether or not > you are I do not think *any* rigid course is > *real*istic. It necessitates time for one thing and > it seems what we are attempting to discuss does not > involve time. > > Nothing is required in my view, it seems to be about > not required. Or, if it can be called a process, then > a process of negation. > > Noel My dearest Niz fellow dharma combatants;-) Once we are s step into any kind of self-realization, we recognize that there is nothing but what is, exactly as it is, however; being a being who is enjoined in the actuality and veracity of Life we want the best of all worlds, for ourselves, our loved ones and the world 'out there'. Any type of violence, self or other oriented is seen in one light: awareness. Can I/she/he/it be 'fixed'?? And what exactly would 'fixing' entail? Is 'fixing' someoohow going to produce more violence? And will this violence be 'worth' it? Questions no one asks ;-) The butterfly effect, you know ;-0 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > > > --- anabebe57 <kailashana wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , Noel > > <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- jasondedonno <jasondedonno@> wrote: > > > > > > > >The use of drugs and alcohol provide glaring > > > > examples > > > > >of people using the wrong means. > > > > > > > > So there is a right and wrong, and a means. > > There > > > > are precepts, there > > > > are requirements. There is a process. > > > > > > > > > Why does means necessarily imply right or wrong? > > > > > > In terms of precepts as a particular course of > > action, > > > I had difficulty with the implication of > > sequencing in > > > your original message and finding difficulty in > > > expressing here again. Perhaps it is only the way > > I > > > am perceiving what you are writing about but you > > seem > > > to be suggesting a very rigid course. Whether or > > not > > > you are I do not think *any* rigid course is > > > *real*istic. It necessitates time for one thing > > and > > > it seems what we are attempting to discuss does > > not > > > involve time. > > > > > > Nothing is required in my view, it seems to be > > about > > > not required. Or, if it can be called a process, > > then > > > a process of negation. > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > > My dearest Niz fellow dharma combatants;-) > > > > Once we are s step into any kind of > > self-realization, we recognize > > that there is nothing but what is, exactly as it is, > > however; being > > a being who is enjoined in the actuality and > > veracity of Life we want > > the best of all worlds, for ourselves, our loved > > ones and the > > world 'out there'. Any type of violence, self or > > other oriented is > > seen in one light: awareness. > > > > Can I/she/he/it be 'fixed'?? And what exactly would > > 'fixing' entail? > > Is 'fixing' someoohow going to produce more > > violence? And will this > > violence be 'worth' it? > > > > Questions no one asks ;-) > > > > The butterfly effect, you know ;-0 > > > > > Dear Anna, > > > Once we are s step into any kind of > > self-realization, > > I do not consider myself realized or enlightened, but > thanks for including me what, you don't know who you are??? let me introduce you Self meet Noel, Noel, meet Self. ;-) > > Unless I have misunderstood, you seem to have > perceived us to be in combat in this discussion. I > can only speak for me and tell you it was not like > that for me at all. In fact, it led to my seeing > something that I will now explore. surely you jest, The world according to Anna, Noel, etc. etc. is all relatively real, and therefore subject to change during dharma battles. You say po tot o I say po tay toe ;-) > > I simply write what seems to be for me at any > particular moment and anything I think-write is > subject to change. REALLY? anna wonders incredulously, and wonders who this new echo is. ;-) > > Noel > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , " iietsa " <iietsa wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " > <jasondedonno@> > > wrote: > > > > > > >The use of drugs and alcohol provide glaring examples > > > >of people using the wrong means. > > > > > > So there is a right and wrong, and a means. There are precepts, > there > > > are requirements. There is a process. > > > > > > whatever was the dream last night.....good or bad.... > > > > there is a waking up... > > > > sooner or later > > > > > > Marc > > > just see the dream as dream...and all is seen > ...iietsa to see the dream as dream.....is how realised people are looking at...It all this nice people have in common that they are not very much attached to this " dream seen as dream " .... except....when they aren't realy realised..... and only dream to be realised.... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > It seems that the stateless state is the original state, before we > were born. So unaware of itself. Then, as beingness emerges, it is > the child consciousness. Then later, if lucky, it becomes reflected > in consciousness as nothingness. Or something like that. > > Anyway, what I'm getting it is that since we are always in the > stateless state, and it is there all the time, if one will only see > it, that means it is available to all, at all times, without any > precepts or prerequirements. > > Thus, it appears to me that being " good " or having " love " or any > kind or beneficial quality has nothing to do with this state. You > could anything. Is it possible that one could be a rapist, a mafia > boss or Charles Manson, or some other equally anti-social being? > > I often wonder about Syd Barret, who died recently, from Pink Floyd. > He was perhaps the most famous pop recluse. The story goes that he > was an unusual youth, in that he always had the ability to hear > colours and see sounds. Later, he took lots of LSD and fell out of > his mind. He was changed forever, radically. But as his group later > wrote in their Album " Wish you were here " ...he reached for the > secret too soon. So, at that very young and immature age, he > suddenly came to know what he knows. And his life that followed is > an example of that. > > So, this stateless state sounds like it's not socially desirable > unless one first learns to live as a good, socially adjusted person. > I think even Niz said once to someone that you can't leave a mess on > one level before you move on from it. > > What do you have to say about that? > nothing matters but your open heart what does it say? .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > > Have you read " Siddhartha " Hermann Hesse? I think it > > may be helpful with your questions. > > > > Yes. I did read Siddhartha by Hesse. I'm more of a Steppenwolfe... > > Did you read the story of the Buddha without love? I think it was in > Zen Flesh and Zen bones, but can't be sure. It was a long time ago > since I read it. Woman falls in love with Buddhist. Buddhist rejects > here advances and treats her coldly. Woman kills him. > > What about the extremists who bombed the World Trade Centre. What kind > of consciousness had they? That's not a rhetorical question... > it was an inside job literally figuratively: it's always an inside job .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > Samurai? > > Shao-Lin? > > And then there's the Biblical story of Satan. Just a story but is > there any meaning behind it? > there's meaning wherever you seek it mirror .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > >The use of drugs and alcohol provide glaring examples > >of people using the wrong means. > > So there is a right and wrong, and a means. There are precepts, there > are requirements. There is a process. > the means are the ends the way is the way self abuse leads to self abuse self love leads to self love the way of being is the being of the way .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , " jasondedonno " <jasondedonno wrote: > > In Mahayana Buddhism, monks train to to replace bad habits with good > ones, as a prelude to realisation. I think it's called Sattva in > Hinduism. > it's nice to have friends monks are just guys .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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