Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Nisargadatta , " skywhilds " <skywords wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > > > One day " I " woke up before " my " world > > did! I woke up without the clutter of > > thoughts. I woke up without the sense > > of identity. > > > > It was a state that felt immensely > > peaceful as well as frightening*. > > > > My body that previously felt heavy; > > now felt like 'non-existing'. > > > > But, pretty soon I noticed something > > else. When my wife shouted at me or > > accused me of something that I hadn't > > done - I felt intense body pain. > > > > I didn't understand it and it happened > > many times. Sometimes it lasted for > > hours and sometimes it lasted for days. > > It was an intense pain that would > > usually start in the back, in wrist or in > > shoulders and it would usually spread. > > It happened many times when my wife > > accused me of something that I hadn't > > done or stopped me from doing that > > which to me had felt as the " right " > > thing to do. > > > > Sometimes it even happened when I > > interacted with few people on the email > > list. > > > > As far as I remember, it never > > happened in office, with my personal > > friends or in any other situations. > > Yet, whenever it happened, it felt like > > a very intense pain and because I > > didn't know its cause or cure - it > > bothered me a lot. > > > > Then, this year I visited India and it > > never happened during my stay there > > though, I had a very intense fight > > there. I came back to USA about 3 > > months back and as far as I remember it > > has never happened again. > > > > Though, I have fought with Total > > Intensity few times (less than my > > *usual* fight frequency). And, I have > > noticed that each time during the fight > > as well as afterwards I experienced an > > unexpected and unanticipated release! I > > have experienced an unanticipated > > freedom in those fights! > > > > Now, based on this experience, my > > theory is that the intense pain that I > > had felt many times before was my > > unexpressed anger! This was energy > > (anger) build-up that hadn't completed > > its path was stuck somewhere in the > > body. And, it was this blocked energy > > (anger) that I had felt as pain! > > > > > > > > --- > > * We fear only what we haven't understood. > > > > ~Byron Katie > > > > > >I hope this following piece of observations is not so uncalled for > that it is unwelcome. If so, please ignore it. Don't worry Sky! It is absolutely fine! > > When I read this post, my first thought was, " sounds like a > rageaholic. " I didn't know what rageaholic meant. But, now after doing a google search I do: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/16161/anger_management_the_r ageaholics_mind.html My guess is that it could be true. Quite surprisingly, among my close friends and families I am known both as very mild mannered, soft spoken, soft hearted, kind, polite and sensitive person and... also as a person who can have great anger! There has been periods when I have been known to have great deal of anger and there has been relatively long periods where I have been known as a soft, kind and mild guy. I have also been known to switch from a very mild guy to a very angry person in many scenarios. In most cases, I can see the anger coming, or maybe, I even purposefully create it. For example, I will say to those concerned; if you keep doing it for 2 more minutes - I will be really angry. And, when they still do it - I really do get angry most of the times unless they smile or play joke or distract me somehow. In these scenarios, it was me who was making a decision to get angry. However once anger really comes, it kind of overtakes me for a while. In some other scenario, anger comes as a quick surge of energy to make sure that something happens and that something happens quickly. For example, I might be busy doing something else and I need quite atmosphere in order to focus. In this scenario, when someone keeps disturbing me - I might shout shut up. Yet, there is another kind of anger which builds slowly and to larger part, it develops and lingers mostly in the background. It is this kind of anger that I have found little more difficult to detect and acknowledge. I have also found this kind of anger most painful personally and most poisonous to those around me. Other kind of anger just comes and disappears quickly once those moments have passed. > Then, as I let it seep in that you found peace and > authenticity in fighting, I had to question my assumption. Now, after > deliberation, I'm concluding that, as I wrote in an earlier post under > the same subject heading, anger is indeed, every bit as complex as any > other emotion. It sure could be. > It needs to be unraveled to be understood. Many psychologists have tried to do it. My guess is that I don't fully understand it. My guess is that I may not full understand it even when I die. I find emotions in general quite involved to be totally understood. However, I find that to enjoy love, understanding love is not a prerequisite. To enjoy sex, understanding sex is not a prerequisite. To enjoy a flower, understanding flower is not a prerequisite. To enjoy sunset, understanding sunset is not a prerequisite. IOW... I don't find it very necessary or useful to try to understand emotions. Based on my experience, and based on my limited reading, I think this is not easily possible. When I am not angry; I don't have anger that I can try to understand. When I am anger; I don't the required distance, clam and clarity to really understand it. When I am angry and I try to really understand it; my anger disappears. What you think? > > I'm sure you do feel that in fighting there's a tremendous release, as > compared to the pain of holding back. Yes. I think that *release* comes from being in total touch with my body, feelings, emotions and thoughts and expressing exactly what I feel. > But the essence of my > suggestion is what I consider the essence on " nonduality, " and that's > openness beyond that either/or. Beyond that either you fight and let > it all hang out, or you hold it in and get bent out. I would like you to elaborate it a little. > > I'd offer just two observations. If you feel guilty about fighting, > as I'm sure you must, rationalizing that it's actually good, may in > itself offer a false sense of well being. It is a sense of 'well being' but I don't think it is 'false'. I have discovered that my primary responsibility is to stay true, honest and loyal to myself. Fighting and thinking " I should not fight " splits me and it creates pain and guilt. It also means that there is something in me [fighting] that I find unacceptable. When I give myself full acceptance, I accept all of me as it appear at any moment. I know I should be exactly how I am at any moment. When I am fighting... I should be fighting because that is the real truth of myself in those moments. Doing one thing and thinking that I should be doing something else only crease pain. > And I would definitely > examine the feelings of persecution that lead you to want to fight in > the first place. Yes. That would make perfect sense. And, I have done it to a large extent. Based on *my* judgment, my wife is controlling, demanding, aggressive, violent, foul mouthed, indecisive, irresponsible, unorganized, selfish, extremely jealous, very vocal and very lazy. Based on *my* judgment I am indecisive, undisciplined, unorganized*, irresponsible, super flirt, unreliable, not fully trustworthy, I have poor house skills, in some aspects I am too cocky, in some other aspects, I am too timid, I also used to be quite naive in terms of understanding female emotions. We both are very passionate. My wife was extremely beautiful, she is a fabulous cook, a great host, a great fun person to talk to, very jovial, very sexy, extremely charming and very spontaneous and she used to love me a lot [she still loves me a lot... most of the times!]. I was considered quite attractive, I was considered a very talented student, a greatly trustworthy, reliable and really well-meaning friend, very generous, kind, down to earth, very loving, spontaneous and extremely passionate! IMO... me and my wife matched each other quite beautifully in the aspects of sex but we were poles apart in terms of our views on life, family, society, country and everything else. The problem was that none of us ever agreed to treat other as the *boss*! We are together because my wife doesn't [and didn't] want to separate. Because, we dearly love our children and my daughter doesn't want us to separate and because I don't want to see my wife struggling financially. I want my wife to be rich and live richly. > > It sounds like you feel unjustly harassed by your wife. Yes. > So, in fighting, all you're doing is retaliating. I won't call it " retaliation " ; as I don't see any " calculation " going on my part. In my view, it can be better termed as honest, truthful, spontaneous expression of exactly what I feel... when I feel it. > This is not getting to the > root, which is the need for an open and ongoing authenticity that > prevents the need for an authentic release from inauthenticity. > > Sky In very " authentic " [or " logical " ] way, I and my wife may not belong together. Yet... here we are... together... sometimes fighting, sometimes not! That is the " truth " of my life as I live it! Thanks for this opportunity Sky! Regards, ac. ---- *BTW... I have tried to be decisive, disciplined, organized, reliable many, many times. So far, I have never succeeded on my own [without some disciplining authority] beyond few weeks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 Many psychologists have tried to do it. My guess is that I don't fully understand it. My guess is that I may not full understand it even when I die. I find emotions in general quite involved to be totally understood. However, I find that to enjoy love, understanding love is not a prerequisite. To enjoy sex, understanding sex is not a prerequisite. To enjoy a flower, understanding flower is not a prerequisite. To enjoy sunset, understanding sunset is not a prerequisite. IOW... I don't find it very necessary or useful to try to understand emotions. Based on my experience, and based on my limited reading, I think this is not easily possible. When I am not angry; I don't have anger that I can try to understand. When I am anger; I don't the required distance, clam and clarity to really understand it. When I am angry and I try to really understand it; my anger disappears. What you think? ........................................................ SKY: I'm a bit confused. How much time did you spend reading the article you yourself offered a link to, about rageaholism? I honestly think that if you'd pondered it, you'd not take the attitude you take to " understanding. " From my point of view, understanding is not a merely intellectual exercise. It is an emotional change from dysfunction to greater health and well being. I read your post, " 'Boring ' description of my domestic fights, " and I am convinced that your wife has turned you into a rageaholic, just as she is most clearly one. You are obviously a very intelligent and compassionate, not to mention trusting and courageous person. But I'm convinced that your wife is very seriously limiting both you and herself to great detriment. To great detriment. As the above article on rageaholism suggests, both you and your wife are not fully living because you are not facing issues of grief, sadness, powerlessness, shame, discomfort. Your blanket way of dealing with a whole range of feelings is anger. And it IS an addiction. This is very destructive, not only to you and your wife, but to your children and everyone else in your lives. Life is more subtle than that. With rage, everything is either black or white, and colors and hues are ignored. This black and white thinking may be what you call clarity. But it isn't. .............................................................. I'm sure you do feel that in fighting there's a tremendous release, as > compared to the pain of holding back. Yes. I think that *release* comes from being in total touch with my body, feelings, emotions and thoughts and expressing exactly what I feel. > But the essence of my > suggestion is what I consider the essence on " nonduality, " and that's > openness beyond that either/or. Beyond that either you fight and let > it all hang out, or you hold it in and get bent out. I would like you to elaborate it a little. ........................................................ SKY: There are negative feelings that you, and especially your wife, are stuffing, not dealing with, ignoring or repressing. These negative feelings contain a tremendous amount of energy. If they aren't dealt with, it can become extremely painful. When that pent up energy is suddenly released through rage, there is a temporary relief. But it doesn't really face these negative feelings. Instead of either stuffing the negative feelings OR raging, it is better to deal with every negative feeling as it comes up. And by " deal, " I mean feel fully, witness, be present and loving in the experience of a feeling. I'm talking about all those, and more, feelings referred to in the article on rageaholism you submitted. ....................................................... > > I'd offer just two observations. If you feel guilty about fighting, > as I'm sure you must, rationalizing that it's actually good, may in > itself offer a false sense of well being. It is a sense of 'well being' but I don't think it is 'false'. I have discovered that my primary responsibility is to stay true, honest and loyal to myself. Fighting and thinking " I should not fight " splits me and it creates pain and guilt. It also means that there is something in me [fighting] that I find unacceptable. When I give myself full acceptance, I accept all of me as it appear at any moment. I know I should be exactly how I am at any moment. When I am fighting... I should be fighting because that is the real truth of myself in those moments. Doing one thing and thinking that I should be doing something else only crease pain. ........................................................... SKY: I'm not concerned with whether you fight or not. I'm concerned with all the truth and honesty that you are NOT engaging in because the whole range of human emotion is being distorted into rage. This IS about being MORE honest and truthful. The raging is just a red herring. It is a distraction. Who cares whether you wear a red tie or a blue tie to work when your house is on fire? That's what all this arguing is about: how honest you are about how you feel about a red or a blue tie, meanwhile, the house is burning down. ........................................................... > And I would definitely > examine the feelings of persecution that lead you to want to fight in > the first place. Yes. That would make perfect sense. And, I have done it to a large extent. Based on *my* judgment, my wife is controlling, demanding, aggressive, violent, foul mouthed, indecisive, irresponsible, unorganized, selfish, extremely jealous, very vocal and very lazy. Based on *my* judgment I am indecisive, undisciplined, unorganized*, irresponsible, super flirt, unreliable, not fully trustworthy, I have poor house skills, in some aspects I am too cocky, in some other aspects, I am too timid, I also used to be quite naive in terms of understanding female emotions. We both are very passionate. My wife was extremely beautiful, she is a fabulous cook, a great host, a great fun person to talk to, very jovial, very sexy, extremely charming and very spontaneous and she used to love me a lot [she still loves me a lot... most of the times!]. I was considered quite attractive, I was considered a very talented student, a greatly trustworthy, reliable and really well-meaning friend, very generous, kind, down to earth, very loving, spontaneous and extremely passionate! IMO... me and my wife matched each other quite beautifully in the aspects of sex but we were poles apart in terms of our views on life, family, society, country and everything else. The problem was that none of us ever agreed to treat other as the *boss*! We are together because my wife doesn't [and didn't] want to separate. Because, we dearly love our children and my daughter doesn't want us to separate and because I don't want to see my wife struggling financially. I want my wife to be rich and live richly. ................................................................... SKY: You describe your situation in very passionate terms, as you say, you are a passionate couple. But that passion is psychodrama: every little thing is dramatically exaggerated and mole hills become mountains. If you can afford it, I would seriously seek counseling, both couple and individual, for both of you. And this will complicate things considerably, as well. Because it isn't easy to find a good councilor. Life is both a lot more subtle and a lot more complex than " passionate " living allows. Much more. ................................................................ > > It sounds like you feel unjustly harassed by your wife. Yes. > So, in fighting, all you're doing is retaliating. I won't call it " retaliation " ; as I don't see any " calculation " going on my part. In my view, it can be better termed as honest, truthful, spontaneous expression of exactly what I feel... when I feel it. ................................................................ SKY: You might honestly and truthfully feel like hurting her. Remember, a huge aspect of rageaholism is Vengeance. Please read and reread your article. There are some paragraphs you should memorize and repeat to yourself for the rest of your life. If you do, I guarantee, it will greatly improve the quality of your life, and that of your children, not to mention... .............................................................. > This is not getting to the > root, which is the need for an open and ongoing authenticity that > prevents the need for an authentic release from inauthenticity. > > Sky In very " authentic " [or " logical " ] way, I and my wife may not belong together. Yet... here we are... together... sometimes fighting, sometimes not! That is the " truth " of my life as I live it! Thanks for this opportunity Sky! Regards, ac. ---- *BTW... I have tried to be decisive, disciplined, organized, reliable many, many times. So far, I have never succeeded on my own [without some disciplining authority] beyond few weeks! .............................................................. SKY: What you and I and all of us need more of is not decisiveness, discipline and organization. What we need is love, sensitivity, understanding, warmth. And all this requires the kind of openness that admits of nuance, subtlety, warmth. Warmth is what is absent in a passionate relationship to oneself, another and the world. Instead of being either hot or cold, lend yourself to warmth. It's a life commitment. It's a life commitment. I will now respond to your other post, " 'Boring ' description of my domestic fights. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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