Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 JOHN: So chasing experience isn't the way to go? You're saying that you should be looking for knowledge? Ram: Yes, absolutely. It is quite rare to have a single experience like Ramana and come away with the firm knowledge that `I am the Self' and have that knowledge stick for more than a few hours or days….a one a million chance. He was either exceptional or lucky although there really isn't any particular advantage to waking up at young age. He may have been graced but this does not mean that his enlightenment was exceptional. He certainly didn't behave as if it were. Enlightenment is just enlightenment and over time countless people have attained enlightenment in many unusual circumstances. When you realize that you are the Self it destroys your sense of being special or unique. But somehow he understood that he needed understanding. He was trying to figure out something and he just happened to be trying to figure out the most important question, `Who am I?' You can see this enquiry in the report of his `death' experience. You have a very bright young man making a scientific experiment, dispassionately observing what was happening. This is the essence of Vedanta. JOHN: So you're talking about Yoga and Vedanta to give some sort of context to his enlightement? Ram: Yes. Now that Ramana is getting fame it is rather sad to see all these Western people coming to Tiruvannamalai with absolutely no notion of the context of his enlightenment and his life, with no understanding of the depth of the Vedic tradition and burdened with amazing and ill-considered views of enlightenment based on their Ramana fantasies. Anyway, Ramana's type of realization, because it did not occur at the feet of a guru in a traditional Vedantic classroom, is more in line with the tradition of Yoga, although most yogis do not become jnanis as Ramana did. His lifestyle too, sitting in meditation in a cave, is more typical of the yogic tradition than the Vedantic. The reason yogis do not usually become jnanis is because they have often been confused by the language of Yoga into thinking of enlightenment as a permanent experience of samadhi. So when the experience is `on' they are not looking to understand anything, they are simply trying to make the state permanent, sahaja. The joke is that enlightenment is not an experience, nor is there any permanent experience. Furthermore, they do not realize that to make an experience permanent one would have to be a doer, an agent acting on the experience, maintaining it or controlling it or staying in it…which is a dualistic state, not enlightenment. http://www.shiningworld.com/Books%20Pages/HTML%20Books/Ramana%27s%20Teachings.ht\ m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > > JOHN: So chasing experience isn't the way to go? You're saying that > you should be looking for knowledge? > > > > Ram: Yes, absolutely. It is quite rare to have a single experience > like Ramana and come away with the firm knowledge that `I am the Self' > and have that knowledge stick for more than a few hours or days….a one > a million chance. > > He was either exceptional or lucky although there really isn't any > particular advantage to waking up at young age. He may have been > graced but this does not mean that his enlightenment was exceptional. > He certainly didn't behave as if it were. > > Enlightenment is just enlightenment and over time countless people > have attained enlightenment in many unusual circumstances. When you > realize that you are the Self it destroys your sense of being special > or unique. > > > But somehow he understood that he needed understanding. He was trying > to figure out something and he just happened to be trying to figure > out the most important question, `Who am I?' > > You can see this enquiry in the report of his `death' experience. You > have a very bright young man making a scientific experiment, > dispassionately observing what was happening. This is the essence of > Vedanta. > > > > JOHN: So you're talking about Yoga and Vedanta to give some sort of > context to his enlightement? > > > > Ram: Yes. Now that Ramana is getting fame it is rather sad to see > all these Western people coming to Tiruvannamalai with absolutely no > notion of the context of his enlightenment and his life, with no > understanding of the depth of the Vedic tradition and burdened with > amazing and ill-considered views of enlightenment based on their > Ramana fantasies. > > > > Anyway, Ramana's type of realization, because it did not occur at the > feet of a guru in a traditional Vedantic classroom, is more in line > with the tradition of Yoga, although most yogis do not become jnanis > as Ramana did. His lifestyle too, sitting in meditation in a cave, is > more typical of the yogic tradition than the Vedantic. > > The reason yogis do not usually become jnanis is because they have > often been confused by the language of Yoga into thinking of > enlightenment as a permanent experience of samadhi. So when the > experience is `on' they are not looking to understand anything, they > are simply trying to make the state permanent, sahaja. > > The joke is that enlightenment is not an experience, nor is there any > permanent experience. Furthermore, they do not realize that to make > an experience permanent one would have to be a doer, an agent acting > on the experience, maintaining it or controlling it or staying in > it…which is a dualistic state, not enlightenment. > > > http://www.shiningworld.com/Books%20Pages/HTML%20Books/Ramana%27s%20Teachings.ht\ m > Enlightenment is the complete annihilation of the personal identity. One eliminates the other. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > > > > > JOHN: So chasing experience isn't the way to go? You're saying that > > you should be looking for knowledge? > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes, absolutely. It is quite rare to have a single experience > > like Ramana and come away with the firm knowledge that `I am the Self' > > and have that knowledge stick for more than a few hours or days….a one > > a million chance. > > > > He was either exceptional or lucky although there really isn't any > > particular advantage to waking up at young age. He may have been > > graced but this does not mean that his enlightenment was exceptional. > > He certainly didn't behave as if it were. > > > > Enlightenment is just enlightenment and over time countless people > > have attained enlightenment in many unusual circumstances. When you > > realize that you are the Self it destroys your sense of being special > > or unique. > > > > > > But somehow he understood that he needed understanding. He was trying > > to figure out something and he just happened to be trying to figure > > out the most important question, `Who am I?' > > > > You can see this enquiry in the report of his `death' experience. You > > have a very bright young man making a scientific experiment, > > dispassionately observing what was happening. This is the essence of > > Vedanta. > > > > > > > > JOHN: So you're talking about Yoga and Vedanta to give some sort of > > context to his enlightement? > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes. Now that Ramana is getting fame it is rather sad to see > > all these Western people coming to Tiruvannamalai with absolutely no > > notion of the context of his enlightenment and his life, with no > > understanding of the depth of the Vedic tradition and burdened with > > amazing and ill-considered views of enlightenment based on their > > Ramana fantasies. > > > > > > > > Anyway, Ramana's type of realization, because it did not occur at the > > feet of a guru in a traditional Vedantic classroom, is more in line > > with the tradition of Yoga, although most yogis do not become jnanis > > as Ramana did. His lifestyle too, sitting in meditation in a cave, is > > more typical of the yogic tradition than the Vedantic. > > > > The reason yogis do not usually become jnanis is because they have > > often been confused by the language of Yoga into thinking of > > enlightenment as a permanent experience of samadhi. So when the > > experience is `on' they are not looking to understand anything, they > > are simply trying to make the state permanent, sahaja. > > > > The joke is that enlightenment is not an experience, nor is there any > > permanent experience. Furthermore, they do not realize that to make > > an experience permanent one would have to be a doer, an agent acting > > on the experience, maintaining it or controlling it or staying in > > it…which is a dualistic state, not enlightenment. > > > > > > > http://www.shiningworld.com/Books%20Pages/HTML%20Books/Ramana%27s% 20Teachings.htm > > > > > > Enlightenment is the complete annihilation of the personal identity. > > > One eliminates the other. > > > > toombaru enlightenment is of subject for people who are dreaming about " the complete annihilation of the personal identity " wondering why this subject appear again and again in here..... maybe there are entites who are dreaming to be " enlightened " ....and therefore are dreaming to talk to " other " entities.....about such wonderful knowledge....which is dreamed to be their own knowledge... great fantasies in here.....great fun Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > JOHN: So chasing experience isn't the way to go? You're saying > that > > > you should be looking for knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes, absolutely. It is quite rare to have a single > experience > > > like Ramana and come away with the firm knowledge that `I am the > Self' > > > and have that knowledge stick for more than a few hours or > days….a one > > > a million chance. > > > > > > He was either exceptional or lucky although there really isn't any > > > particular advantage to waking up at young age. He may have been > > > graced but this does not mean that his enlightenment was > exceptional. > > > He certainly didn't behave as if it were. > > > > > > Enlightenment is just enlightenment and over time countless people > > > have attained enlightenment in many unusual circumstances. When > you > > > realize that you are the Self it destroys your sense of being > special > > > or unique. > > > > > > > > > But somehow he understood that he needed understanding. He was > trying > > > to figure out something and he just happened to be trying to > figure > > > out the most important question, `Who am I?' > > > > > > You can see this enquiry in the report of his `death' > experience. You > > > have a very bright young man making a scientific experiment, > > > dispassionately observing what was happening. This is the > essence of > > > Vedanta. > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN: So you're talking about Yoga and Vedanta to give some > sort of > > > context to his enlightement? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes. Now that Ramana is getting fame it is rather sad to > see > > > all these Western people coming to Tiruvannamalai with absolutely > no > > > notion of the context of his enlightenment and his life, with no > > > understanding of the depth of the Vedic tradition and burdened > with > > > amazing and ill-considered views of enlightenment based on their > > > Ramana fantasies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, Ramana's type of realization, because it did not occur at > the > > > feet of a guru in a traditional Vedantic classroom, is more in > line > > > with the tradition of Yoga, although most yogis do not become > jnanis > > > as Ramana did. His lifestyle too, sitting in meditation in a > cave, is > > > more typical of the yogic tradition than the Vedantic. > > > > > > The reason yogis do not usually become jnanis is because they have > > > often been confused by the language of Yoga into thinking of > > > enlightenment as a permanent experience of samadhi. So when the > > > experience is `on' they are not looking to understand anything, > they > > > are simply trying to make the state permanent, sahaja. > > > > > > The joke is that enlightenment is not an experience, nor is there > any > > > permanent experience. Furthermore, they do not realize that to > make > > > an experience permanent one would have to be a doer, an agent > acting > > > on the experience, maintaining it or controlling it or staying in > > > it…which is a dualistic state, not enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.shiningworld.com/Books%20Pages/HTML%20Books/Ramana%27s% > 20Teachings.htm > > > > > > > > > > > Enlightenment is the complete annihilation of the personal identity. > > > > > > One eliminates the other. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > enlightenment is of subject for people who are dreaming about " the > complete annihilation of the personal identity " > > wondering why this subject appear again and again in here..... > > maybe there are entites who are dreaming to be " enlightened " ....and > therefore are dreaming to talk to " other " entities.....about such > wonderful knowledge....which is dreamed to be their own knowledge... > > > great fantasies in here.....great fun > > > Marc > > > > > There are no entities dreaming.......they are the dream. The 'fun' and the 'understanding' are also part of the dream. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN: So chasing experience isn't the way to go? You're saying > > that > > > > you should be looking for knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes, absolutely. It is quite rare to have a single > > experience > > > > like Ramana and come away with the firm knowledge that `I am the > > Self' > > > > and have that knowledge stick for more than a few hours or > > days….a one > > > > a million chance. > > > > > > > > He was either exceptional or lucky although there really isn't any > > > > particular advantage to waking up at young age. He may have been > > > > graced but this does not mean that his enlightenment was > > exceptional. > > > > He certainly didn't behave as if it were. > > > > > > > > Enlightenment is just enlightenment and over time countless people > > > > have attained enlightenment in many unusual circumstances. When > > you > > > > realize that you are the Self it destroys your sense of being > > special > > > > or unique. > > > > > > > > > > > > But somehow he understood that he needed understanding. He was > > trying > > > > to figure out something and he just happened to be trying to > > figure > > > > out the most important question, `Who am I?' > > > > > > > > You can see this enquiry in the report of his `death' > > experience. You > > > > have a very bright young man making a scientific experiment, > > > > dispassionately observing what was happening. This is the > > essence of > > > > Vedanta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN: So you're talking about Yoga and Vedanta to give some > > sort of > > > > context to his enlightement? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes. Now that Ramana is getting fame it is rather sad to > > see > > > > all these Western people coming to Tiruvannamalai with absolutely > > no > > > > notion of the context of his enlightenment and his life, with no > > > > understanding of the depth of the Vedic tradition and burdened > > with > > > > amazing and ill-considered views of enlightenment based on their > > > > Ramana fantasies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, Ramana's type of realization, because it did not occur at > > the > > > > feet of a guru in a traditional Vedantic classroom, is more in > > line > > > > with the tradition of Yoga, although most yogis do not become > > jnanis > > > > as Ramana did. His lifestyle too, sitting in meditation in a > > cave, is > > > > more typical of the yogic tradition than the Vedantic. > > > > > > > > The reason yogis do not usually become jnanis is because they have > > > > often been confused by the language of Yoga into thinking of > > > > enlightenment as a permanent experience of samadhi. So when the > > > > experience is `on' they are not looking to understand anything, > > they > > > > are simply trying to make the state permanent, sahaja. > > > > > > > > The joke is that enlightenment is not an experience, nor is there > > any > > > > permanent experience. Furthermore, they do not realize that to > > make > > > > an experience permanent one would have to be a doer, an agent > > acting > > > > on the experience, maintaining it or controlling it or staying in > > > > it…which is a dualistic state, not enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.shiningworld.com/Books%20Pages/HTML%20Books/Ramana% 27s% > > 20Teachings.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Enlightenment is the complete annihilation of the personal identity. > > > > > > > > > One eliminates the other. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > enlightenment is of subject for people who are dreaming about " the > > complete annihilation of the personal identity " > > > > wondering why this subject appear again and again in here..... > > > > maybe there are entites who are dreaming to be " enlightened " ....and > > therefore are dreaming to talk to " other " entities.....about such > > wonderful knowledge....which is dreamed to be their own knowledge... > > > > > > great fantasies in here.....great fun > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > There are no entities dreaming.......they are the dream. > > The 'fun' and the 'understanding' are also part of the dream. > > toombaru yes....have fun so.... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN: So chasing experience isn't the way to go? You're saying > > that > > > > you should be looking for knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes, absolutely. It is quite rare to have a single > > experience > > > > like Ramana and come away with the firm knowledge that `I am the > > Self' > > > > and have that knowledge stick for more than a few hours or > > days….a one > > > > a million chance. > > > > > > > > He was either exceptional or lucky although there really isn't any > > > > particular advantage to waking up at young age. He may have been > > > > graced but this does not mean that his enlightenment was > > exceptional. > > > > He certainly didn't behave as if it were. > > > > > > > > Enlightenment is just enlightenment and over time countless people > > > > have attained enlightenment in many unusual circumstances. When > > you > > > > realize that you are the Self it destroys your sense of being > > special > > > > or unique. > > > > > > > > > > > > But somehow he understood that he needed understanding. He was > > trying > > > > to figure out something and he just happened to be trying to > > figure > > > > out the most important question, `Who am I?' > > > > > > > > You can see this enquiry in the report of his `death' > > experience. You > > > > have a very bright young man making a scientific experiment, > > > > dispassionately observing what was happening. This is the > > essence of > > > > Vedanta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN: So you're talking about Yoga and Vedanta to give some > > sort of > > > > context to his enlightement? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes. Now that Ramana is getting fame it is rather sad to > > see > > > > all these Western people coming to Tiruvannamalai with absolutely > > no > > > > notion of the context of his enlightenment and his life, with no > > > > understanding of the depth of the Vedic tradition and burdened > > with > > > > amazing and ill-considered views of enlightenment based on their > > > > Ramana fantasies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, Ramana's type of realization, because it did not occur at > > the > > > > feet of a guru in a traditional Vedantic classroom, is more in > > line > > > > with the tradition of Yoga, although most yogis do not become > > jnanis > > > > as Ramana did. His lifestyle too, sitting in meditation in a > > cave, is > > > > more typical of the yogic tradition than the Vedantic. > > > > > > > > The reason yogis do not usually become jnanis is because they have > > > > often been confused by the language of Yoga into thinking of > > > > enlightenment as a permanent experience of samadhi. So when the > > > > experience is `on' they are not looking to understand anything, > > they > > > > are simply trying to make the state permanent, sahaja. > > > > > > > > The joke is that enlightenment is not an experience, nor is there > > any > > > > permanent experience. Furthermore, they do not realize that to > > make > > > > an experience permanent one would have to be a doer, an agent > > acting > > > > on the experience, maintaining it or controlling it or staying in > > > > it…which is a dualistic state, not enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.shiningworld.com/Books%20Pages/HTML%20Books/Ramana% 27s% > > 20Teachings.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Enlightenment is the complete annihilation of the personal identity. > > > > > > > > > One eliminates the other. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > enlightenment is of subject for people who are dreaming about " the > > complete annihilation of the personal identity " > > > > wondering why this subject appear again and again in here..... > > > > maybe there are entites who are dreaming to be " enlightened " ....and > > therefore are dreaming to talk to " other " entities.....about such > > wonderful knowledge....which is dreamed to be their own knowledge... > > > > > > great fantasies in here.....great fun > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > There are no entities dreaming.......they are the dream. > > The 'fun' and the 'understanding' are also part of the dream. > > toombaru > .....to complete you sentences....: there is no dream here and Now ....there is nothing but Oneness... just being all within One One within All Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN: So chasing experience isn't the way to go? You're > saying > > > that > > > > > you should be looking for knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes, absolutely. It is quite rare to have a single > > > experience > > > > > like Ramana and come away with the firm knowledge that `I am > the > > > Self' > > > > > and have that knowledge stick for more than a few hours or > > > days….a one > > > > > a million chance. > > > > > > > > > > He was either exceptional or lucky although there really > isn't any > > > > > particular advantage to waking up at young age. He may have > been > > > > > graced but this does not mean that his enlightenment was > > > exceptional. > > > > > He certainly didn't behave as if it were. > > > > > > > > > > Enlightenment is just enlightenment and over time countless > people > > > > > have attained enlightenment in many unusual circumstances. > When > > > you > > > > > realize that you are the Self it destroys your sense of being > > > special > > > > > or unique. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But somehow he understood that he needed understanding. He > was > > > trying > > > > > to figure out something and he just happened to be trying to > > > figure > > > > > out the most important question, `Who am I?' > > > > > > > > > > You can see this enquiry in the report of his `death' > > > experience. You > > > > > have a very bright young man making a scientific experiment, > > > > > dispassionately observing what was happening. This is the > > > essence of > > > > > Vedanta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN: So you're talking about Yoga and Vedanta to give some > > > sort of > > > > > context to his enlightement? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram: Yes. Now that Ramana is getting fame it is rather sad > to > > > see > > > > > all these Western people coming to Tiruvannamalai with > absolutely > > > no > > > > > notion of the context of his enlightenment and his life, with > no > > > > > understanding of the depth of the Vedic tradition and > burdened > > > with > > > > > amazing and ill-considered views of enlightenment based on > their > > > > > Ramana fantasies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, Ramana's type of realization, because it did not > occur at > > > the > > > > > feet of a guru in a traditional Vedantic classroom, is more > in > > > line > > > > > with the tradition of Yoga, although most yogis do not become > > > jnanis > > > > > as Ramana did. His lifestyle too, sitting in meditation in a > > > cave, is > > > > > more typical of the yogic tradition than the Vedantic. > > > > > > > > > > The reason yogis do not usually become jnanis is because they > have > > > > > often been confused by the language of Yoga into thinking of > > > > > enlightenment as a permanent experience of samadhi. So when > the > > > > > experience is `on' they are not looking to understand > anything, > > > they > > > > > are simply trying to make the state permanent, sahaja. > > > > > > > > > > The joke is that enlightenment is not an experience, nor is > there > > > any > > > > > permanent experience. Furthermore, they do not realize that > to > > > make > > > > > an experience permanent one would have to be a doer, an agent > > > acting > > > > > on the experience, maintaining it or controlling it or > staying in > > > > > it…which is a dualistic state, not enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.shiningworld.com/Books%20Pages/HTML%20Books/Ramana% > 27s% > > > 20Teachings.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Enlightenment is the complete annihilation of the personal > identity. > > > > > > > > > > > > One eliminates the other. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > enlightenment is of subject for people who are dreaming > about " the > > > complete annihilation of the personal identity " > > > > > > wondering why this subject appear again and again in here..... > > > > > > maybe there are entites who are dreaming to > be " enlightened " ....and > > > therefore are dreaming to talk to " other " entities.....about such > > > wonderful knowledge....which is dreamed to be their own > knowledge... > > > > > > > > > great fantasies in here.....great fun > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are no entities dreaming.......they are the dream. > > > > The 'fun' and the 'understanding' are also part of the dream. > > > > toombaru > > > > > ....to complete you sentences....: > > there is no dream > > here and > > Now > > > > ...there is nothing but Oneness... > > just being > > all within One > > One within All > > > Marc > ....ahhhh, so and within this beautiful, gorgeous, awe-full absolutely engaging Oneness IS the experience of " I " experiencing the experience of " YOU " the Love you are should 'you' choose love, that Is...the ever-present light of what IS. Love and light Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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