Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 What I see in the root of 'myself' is only a sense of IDENTITY! Thus, all that can possibly get reborn or resurrected is only this sense of IDENTITY! Further, what an 'enlightenment' and 'nirvana' can supposedly make me " free " of is... only this sense of IDENTITY! Also, what is the feeling of being one with the Universe is... simply 'suspension' of this 'sense of identity'! But, this 'identity' as I have experienced, known and understood... is Purely a Biological Function! It is purely a product of [physical] Brain and... it gets " born " only when that part of the brain becomes Active! If somehow you put that part of the brain to " sleep " - 'identity' will disappear too! And, it already happens in Deep Sleep, Meditation and Samadhi! Yet, when we are back from deep sleep or Samadhi - identity is functional again just because that functionality, that potential of brain is still Intact! If somehow, that functionality itself was [physically] damaged 'I' [as the 'person'] will die in this Life itself and will NEVER get 'reborn' unless that functionality was 'restored' again! This already happens to some extent in people who lose their memory due to some accident! In a way, though they still have a functionally identity [a sense of 'me'] - they are 'no longer' the same 'person'! Because of the removal of memory, they have already lost bunch of 'personal' problems [and resulting pain] just in this Life! The 'personal' problems they have lost include 'what somebody did to them, their family, parents, children' [something that " spiritual " 'seekers' often spend lot of money, time and energy in trying to overcome]! However, in such cases, we as society are there to help them " recreate " these 'problems' [memories] and resulting pain Again Such a person, because of little damage to the [physical] brain has lost part of his 'person' just by having lost part of the 'personal memory'! There has also been report of people's change of 'emotions', 'feelings' and 'behavior' because of another kind of damage to the physical brain! Combining these two, we see that [the part] of me [who we think we are] CAN NOT even 'survives' the physical damage of the brain! Then, based on that, what are its chances of its surviving TOTAL Death of the Brain is slim to non-existent! Even thinking that 'there must be something more to it' too is part of the SAME brain! The brain being primarily a SURVIVAL tool is evolutionary trained to do everything that will increase its chances of SURVIVAL! A strong belief in a 'concrete', 'real' identity certainly buys it that! Belief that the " me " [its sense of 'identity'] is something distinct, real, and independent and not just a 'product' of some chemical reactions definitely helps it in *controlling* resources in the protection of that identity! Based on the same 'theory' of identity being a biological function, it is my " guess " that no 'living' human [including likes of Ramana, Amma, Tolle] is free of this IDENTITY! This identity is PURELY a 'biological' function; and, though, it can be 'asleep' for varying length of time, it can not be 'dead' in any normal biological body! It is a biological function - and, a is very Essential Function part of the *normal* operation of the brain! The 'sense of identity' that we know and feel is a product of the biological 'function' [chemical reaction] taking place in the brain! But, this 'sense of identity' is only a feeling of " me " devoid of any ego. It has no sense of a `person' - it has no intrinsic 'ego'! This 'feeling' becomes a 'sense of 'person''; a 'mental' 'image' of me only after it gets mixed with " thoughts " stored in the memory! Yet, incredibly, I " rebirth theories " , not only we expect this brain produced 'sense of me' to 'survive' - we also expect this 'memory dependent' 'person' to Survive! But, as we have seen in numerous cases of brain damage, 'survival' of this 'person' is solely dependent of the survival of the memory! When the memory is lost, part of that 'person' [which is expected to survive total physical death] dies in this life itself! In my opinion, what is often described of as 'soul', is simply an 'ancient' name given to the 'sense of identity' produced by the brain! And, being only a 'sense' produced by the 'physical brain'; it can not survive the DEATH of the brain! > > Scientists say that entire universe was > born out of a black hole. It progressed > from hydrogen to helium to oxygen and > water and then eventually bacteria, > viruses and humans too were born! > > Scientists further state that universe > will eventually go back to being single > black hole Again! > > > I wonder what that tells about all the > rebirth 'stories' and, about the 'life > after death'! > > But, then, I think all these 'stories' > have this concept of 'waiting' one can > be 'waiting' for eons to take birth - > and, I wonder how 'painful' such > 'waiting' might be - and, then just > when you though you had a womb, a > potential mother and a potential 'life' > - your mother decides to 'abort'! That > could be Quite Painful indeed! > > But, luckily, I think all these > 'stories' are mostly just > 'speculations' and, in reality, no one > really has any real clue about it! > > I think ultimately science is the only > one that can answer the question of > " life " , " death " , 'life after death' and > 'rebirth' and so far, even science has > no real answer for any of these! > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 in reference to maharaj and his experience, i do not see that identity is lost, but only the identity of being a particular. even being a universe still implies being a particular universe. Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > > What I see in the root of 'myself' is > only a sense of IDENTITY! > > > Thus, all that can possibly get > reborn or resurrected is only this sense > of IDENTITY! > > Further, what an 'enlightenment' and 'nirvana' > can supposedly make me " free " of is... > only this sense of IDENTITY! > > Also, what is the feeling of being one with > the Universe is... simply 'suspension' > of this 'sense of identity'! > > > But, this 'identity' as I have > experienced, known and understood... > is Purely a Biological Function! It is > purely a product of [physical] Brain > and... it gets " born " only when that > part of the brain becomes Active! > > If somehow you put that part of the > brain to " sleep " - 'identity' will > disappear too! And, it already happens > in Deep Sleep, Meditation and Samadhi! > > Yet, when we are back from deep sleep > or Samadhi - identity is functional > again just because that functionality, > that potential of brain is still > Intact! If somehow, that functionality > itself was [physically] damaged 'I' [as > the 'person'] will die in this Life > itself and will NEVER get 'reborn' > unless that functionality was > 'restored' again! > > This already happens to some extent in > people who lose their memory due to some > accident! In a way, though they still > have a functionally identity [a sense > of 'me'] - they are 'no longer' the > same 'person'! > > Because of the removal of memory, they > have already lost bunch of 'personal' > problems [and resulting pain] just in > this Life! The 'personal' problems they > have lost include 'what somebody did to > them, their family, parents, children' > [something that " spiritual " 'seekers' > often spend lot of money, time and > energy in trying to overcome]! However, > in such cases, we as society are there > to help them " recreate " these > 'problems' [memories] and resulting > pain Again > > Such a person, because of little > damage to the [physical] brain has lost > part of his 'person' just by having > lost part of the 'personal memory'! > There has also been report of people's > change of 'emotions', 'feelings' and > 'behavior' because of another kind of > damage to the physical brain! Combining > these two, we see that [the part] of me > [who we think we are] CAN NOT even > 'survives' the physical damage of the > brain! Then, based on that, what are > its chances of its surviving TOTAL Death of > the Brain is slim to non-existent! > > Even thinking that 'there must be > something more to it' too is part of > the SAME brain! The brain being > primarily a SURVIVAL tool is > evolutionary trained to do everything > that will increase its chances of > SURVIVAL! A strong belief in a > 'concrete', 'real' identity certainly > buys it that! Belief that the " me " [its > sense of 'identity'] is something > distinct, real, and independent and not > just a 'product' of some chemical > reactions definitely helps it in > *controlling* resources in the > protection of that identity! > > > Based on the same 'theory' of > identity being a biological function, > it is my " guess " that no 'living' human > [including likes of Ramana, Amma, > Tolle] is free of this IDENTITY! This > identity is PURELY a 'biological' > function; and, though, it can be 'asleep' > for varying length of time, it can > not be 'dead' in any normal biological > body! It is a biological function - > and, a is very Essential Function part > of the *normal* operation of the brain! > > > The 'sense of identity' that we know > and feel is a product of the > biological 'function' [chemical > reaction] taking place in the brain! > But, this 'sense of identity' is only a > feeling of " me " devoid of any ego. > It has no sense of a `person' - it has > no intrinsic 'ego'! This 'feeling' > becomes a 'sense of 'person''; a > 'mental' 'image' of me only after it > gets mixed with " thoughts " stored in > the memory! > > Yet, incredibly, I " rebirth theories " , > not only we expect this brain produced > 'sense of me' to 'survive' - we also > expect this 'memory dependent' 'person' > to Survive! But, as we have seen in > numerous cases of brain damage, > 'survival' of this 'person' is solely > dependent of the survival of the > memory! When the memory is lost, part > of that 'person' [which is expected to > survive total physical death] dies in > this life itself! > > In my opinion, what is often described > of as 'soul', is simply an 'ancient' > name given to the 'sense of identity' > produced by the brain! And, being only > a 'sense' produced by the 'physical > brain'; it can not survive the DEATH of > the brain! > > > > > > > Scientists say that entire universe was > > born out of a black hole. It progressed > > from hydrogen to helium to oxygen and > > water and then eventually bacteria, > > viruses and humans too were born! > > > > Scientists further state that universe > > will eventually go back to being single > > black hole Again! > > > > > > I wonder what that tells about all the > > rebirth 'stories' and, about the 'life > > after death'! > > > > But, then, I think all these 'stories' > > have this concept of 'waiting' one can > > be 'waiting' for eons to take birth - > > and, I wonder how 'painful' such > > 'waiting' might be - and, then just > > when you though you had a womb, a > > potential mother and a potential 'life' > > - your mother decides to 'abort'! That > > could be Quite Painful indeed! > > > > But, luckily, I think all these > > 'stories' are mostly just > > 'speculations' and, in reality, no one > > really has any real clue about it! > > > > I think ultimately science is the only > > one that can answer the question of > > " life " , " death " , 'life after death' and > > 'rebirth' and so far, even science has > > no real answer for any of these! > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 ....before the consciousness ....before the awareness ....before the awareness of consciousness I Am who AM I? who will I be when I am not I am? an unbroken, unwoven thread... Nisargadatta , " ramanama06 " <ramanama06 wrote: > > in reference to maharaj and his experience, i do not see that identity is lost, but only the > identity of being a particular. even being a universe still implies being a particular > universe. > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming@> > wrote: > > > > > > What I see in the root of 'myself' is > > only a sense of IDENTITY! > > > > > > Thus, all that can possibly get > > reborn or resurrected is only this sense > > of IDENTITY! > > > > Further, what an 'enlightenment' and 'nirvana' > > can supposedly make me " free " of is... > > only this sense of IDENTITY! > > > > Also, what is the feeling of being one with > > the Universe is... simply 'suspension' > > of this 'sense of identity'! > > > > > > But, this 'identity' as I have > > experienced, known and understood... > > is Purely a Biological Function! It is > > purely a product of [physical] Brain > > and... it gets " born " only when that > > part of the brain becomes Active! > > > > If somehow you put that part of the > > brain to " sleep " - 'identity' will > > disappear too! And, it already happens > > in Deep Sleep, Meditation and Samadhi! > > > > Yet, when we are back from deep sleep > > or Samadhi - identity is functional > > again just because that functionality, > > that potential of brain is still > > Intact! If somehow, that functionality > > itself was [physically] damaged 'I' [as > > the 'person'] will die in this Life > > itself and will NEVER get 'reborn' > > unless that functionality was > > 'restored' again! > > > > This already happens to some extent in > > people who lose their memory due to some > > accident! In a way, though they still > > have a functionally identity [a sense > > of 'me'] - they are 'no longer' the > > same 'person'! > > > > Because of the removal of memory, they > > have already lost bunch of 'personal' > > problems [and resulting pain] just in > > this Life! The 'personal' problems they > > have lost include 'what somebody did to > > them, their family, parents, children' > > [something that " spiritual " 'seekers' > > often spend lot of money, time and > > energy in trying to overcome]! However, > > in such cases, we as society are there > > to help them " recreate " these > > 'problems' [memories] and resulting > > pain Again > > > > Such a person, because of little > > damage to the [physical] brain has lost > > part of his 'person' just by having > > lost part of the 'personal memory'! > > There has also been report of people's > > change of 'emotions', 'feelings' and > > 'behavior' because of another kind of > > damage to the physical brain! Combining > > these two, we see that [the part] of me > > [who we think we are] CAN NOT even > > 'survives' the physical damage of the > > brain! Then, based on that, what are > > its chances of its surviving TOTAL Death of > > the Brain is slim to non-existent! > > > > Even thinking that 'there must be > > something more to it' too is part of > > the SAME brain! The brain being > > primarily a SURVIVAL tool is > > evolutionary trained to do everything > > that will increase its chances of > > SURVIVAL! A strong belief in a > > 'concrete', 'real' identity certainly > > buys it that! Belief that the " me " [its > > sense of 'identity'] is something > > distinct, real, and independent and not > > just a 'product' of some chemical > > reactions definitely helps it in > > *controlling* resources in the > > protection of that identity! > > > > > > Based on the same 'theory' of > > identity being a biological function, > > it is my " guess " that no 'living' human > > [including likes of Ramana, Amma, > > Tolle] is free of this IDENTITY! This > > identity is PURELY a 'biological' > > function; and, though, it can be 'asleep' > > for varying length of time, it can > > not be 'dead' in any normal biological > > body! It is a biological function - > > and, a is very Essential Function part > > of the *normal* operation of the brain! > > > > > > The 'sense of identity' that we know > > and feel is a product of the > > biological 'function' [chemical > > reaction] taking place in the brain! > > But, this 'sense of identity' is only a > > feeling of " me " devoid of any ego. > > It has no sense of a `person' - it has > > no intrinsic 'ego'! This 'feeling' > > becomes a 'sense of 'person''; a > > 'mental' 'image' of me only after it > > gets mixed with " thoughts " stored in > > the memory! > > > > Yet, incredibly, I " rebirth theories " , > > not only we expect this brain produced > > 'sense of me' to 'survive' - we also > > expect this 'memory dependent' 'person' > > to Survive! But, as we have seen in > > numerous cases of brain damage, > > 'survival' of this 'person' is solely > > dependent of the survival of the > > memory! When the memory is lost, part > > of that 'person' [which is expected to > > survive total physical death] dies in > > this life itself! > > > > In my opinion, what is often described > > of as 'soul', is simply an 'ancient' > > name given to the 'sense of identity' > > produced by the brain! And, being only > > a 'sense' produced by the 'physical > > brain'; it can not survive the DEATH of > > the brain! > > > > > > > > > > > > Scientists say that entire universe was > > > born out of a black hole. It progressed > > > from hydrogen to helium to oxygen and > > > water and then eventually bacteria, > > > viruses and humans too were born! > > > > > > Scientists further state that universe > > > will eventually go back to being single > > > black hole Again! > > > > > > > > > I wonder what that tells about all the > > > rebirth 'stories' and, about the 'life > > > after death'! > > > > > > But, then, I think all these 'stories' > > > have this concept of 'waiting' one can > > > be 'waiting' for eons to take birth - > > > and, I wonder how 'painful' such > > > 'waiting' might be - and, then just > > > when you though you had a womb, a > > > potential mother and a potential 'life' > > > - your mother decides to 'abort'! That > > > could be Quite Painful indeed! > > > > > > But, luckily, I think all these > > > 'stories' are mostly just > > > 'speculations' and, in reality, no one > > > really has any real clue about it! > > > > > > I think ultimately science is the only > > > one that can answer the question of > > > " life " , " death " , 'life after death' and > > > 'rebirth' and so far, even science has > > > no real answer for any of these! > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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