[NonDualPhil] what's your position? chicken or egg, hog or Self

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Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote:

>

>

> On Nov 9, 2006, at 6:39 AM, Insight wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > [He perceives all as all. Having perceived all as all, he

> > conceives himself as all, he conceives himself in the all,

> > he conceives himself apart from the all, he conceives all

> > to be 'mine,' he delights in all. Why is that? because he

> > has not fully understood it, I say]

> >

> > P: Yes, a failure to understand identification as a separation

> > of one kind or another. Even in " I am All " , there is a subtle

> > distinction between the 'I' and the 'All.'

> >

> > I: More than that. It smashes the foundation of the " nondualist's "

> > most cherished position: that the All is Self.

> >

> >

> > e:Advaita Self = Buddhist no-self awareness (emptiness).

> >

> > All is Self = Form is emptiness

> >

> > ------------------------------

> >

> >

> > J: 'Self' (reductionist and static)is some kind of Supreme Monad

isn't

> > it -

> > endowed with own-being, eternal permanence, immortality, wholeness

and

> > indivisibility with monists seeing themselves as spiritual

> > beings endowed with the same qualities and the 'seeker'

> > is to be persuaded that they are ALREADY is the state of egolessness

> > and absolute anonymity and any thought or desire arises

> > out of some 'Oneness' - unless you have a different definition.

> >

> >

> > One way to understand sunyata is with the idea of " nowness "

> > or " momentariness " . In the absence of any

> > permanent, abiding substance or Self/self/ground anywhere,

> > there is only the *nowness* of things, ephemeral, transitory,

> > momentary. " Nowness " is also known as tathata or " suchness " .

> > When the futility of all conceptual thinking is realized, reality

> > is experienced as pure " suchness " . What is realized in suchness

> > is the existence of form-as-itself (the treeness of tree), but that

> > realization is suffused in intutive wisdom (prajna) so that the

> > ultimate reality of the form is seen as momentary and essentially

> > devoid (sunya) of any lasting substance -

> > emptiness=suchness=devoid of own-being.

> >

> >

> > " Sariputra, form does not differ from emptiness,

> > emptiness does not differ from form. That which is form

> > is emptiness, that which is emptiness is form.

> >

> > Like all phenomena, form is devoid of any inherent

> > self-abiding nature. This devoidness of any self-abiding

> > nature (emptiness) is not a quality which a form gains

> > in the course of its momentary existence but is

> > infused with it from the very beginning. The sutra insists

> > that form is emptness. There is a critical difference

> > between form being empty and form being emptiness.

> > Sunyata, in the Prajnaparamita Sutras, is the ultimate

> > nature of reality; at the same time it does not exist

> > part from phenomena but permeates phenomenon.

> > Therefore, sunyata cannot be sought apart from the totality

> > of all forms. And, although all forms are qualified at

> > their core by sunyata, its presence does not negate

> > the conventional appearance of form. In this sense,

> > emptiness is dependent on the form it qualifies,

> > as much as form is dependent on emptiness for

> > its qualification. This form is emptiness and emptiness

> > is form. At its core level, form does not differ from

> > emptiness nor does emptiness differ from form.

> >

> > " The same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and

> > consciousness.

> >

> > The presence of emptiness does not negate the conventional

> > appearance of feelings, perceptions, impulses, conciousness.

> > All of these skandhas are constantly arising and dissolving

> > as a result of certain conditions being present. These conditions

> > are, in turn, empty and conditioned by another set

> > of conditions which, too, are empty and so on.

> >

> >

> > All catagories of arising and disappearing, pure and

> > impure, increasing or decreasing, belong to the realm

> > of affirmation and negation which are produced by

> > our conceptual thinking. In pure experience, there

> > is no affirmation or negation. In the experience of

> > emptiness there is only emptiness, not its affirmation

> > or negation as having arisen or having disappeared,

> > holy, or unholy, etc. As a concept, sunyata too is

> > empty. Any affirmation or negation of sunyata would

> > be conceptual, and hence a deluded view.

> >

> > -bits lifted from a commentary on the

> > Heart Sutra by Mu Soeng Sunim

> >

> > Joyce

> >

> >

>

> P: Very good, Joyce. Realizing True Nature,

> all things are one, and also empty. Self and

> other are empty, but one. Empty because

> they are not graspable; one because they can

> not be set apart. The same is true of consciousness

> and unconsciousness, and time and eternity. All

> things are eternal, but not continuous. They are

> eternal because, they are recurrent; they are

> discontinuous because they come and go.

>

> True nature is both conscious and unconscious,

> eternity and time, Self and other, something and

> nothing, and unknowable knowing of not graspable

> delight.

>

 

 

ah...so...

 

it is

 

I am...

 

A TASTE OF ASHES

 

Forgive me My Life,

 

For not understanding you soon enough--

 

Not looking to you and you alone as my Saviour

 

Unnamed Tombs have spoken this Truth

 

This emptiness of Existence that exists not There

 

And for this I have given my Life--

 

This Part I have not Lived...

 

In dreams of Dreams

 

In memories of Memories

 

In words of Words

 

I thought were Mine...

 

 

 

Yet Love still speaks to me of You--

 

--This wretched ache--

 

--Longing to be Touched--

 

To hold gentler still as my Prayer--

 

In bowing Gratitude as you Know Me...

 

 

 

Now here, Now passing

 

A Shadow of Self, Selfless

 

Long Last This Ecstasy

 

An Astonishment

 

A Fragility in Balance

 

--Before--

 

A Taste of Ashes on This Sorrowful Tongue