Guest guest Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 Hello, Nisargadatta Maharaj often speaks of the mind-body complex as determined entirely by the five elements and the three gunas. Does that mean that the elements and gunas are unchangeable, therefore real? Best regards, Mariusz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 THEY EXIST I see faces in the patterns on my king size counterpane, they vanish when I turn away and then look back again, faces non-existent, just patterns in the weave, and if I look more closely the images will leave as though they never lived there, as though they never were, and though they sometimes trick me in thinking they are there when I surely know for certain that these things don't exist, something peeps from round the corner, something that I missed upon my journey inward now merges with the goal, they exist there in the outward, and are there within the whole. Tommy. Nisargadatta , " mortlake2002 " <shamshir wrote: > > Hello, > > Nisargadatta Maharaj often speaks of the mind-body complex as > determined entirely by the five elements and the three gunas. Does that > mean that the elements and gunas are unchangeable, therefore real? > > Best regards, > > Mariusz > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 Does anyone has a straightforward, yes-or-no answer to my question? Thank you, Mariusz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 ha! questions about maharaj are best not put to this crowd. from the standpoint of a sincere devotee of maharaj, i would respond to your question by encouraging you to shift the focus of your attention from the observed/thought, to the witness/observer. if you are ever to truly understand maharaj, the witness must remain at the forefront of your attention. if you continue to have faith, you will assuredly find yourself without questions. from the standpoint of giving a pointed answer to your question, i would say that as earth, fire, and water are in constant ebb and flow into one another, so are sattva, tamas, and rajas. one may have predominance in a certain instance, but that quickly changes. what is happening, what is observed, maharaj says is not real. once again, an answer to this question that does not encourage shifting the focus of attention from the observed to the observer is at last not an answer at all. om. :0 Nisargadatta , " mortlake2002 " <shamshir wrote: > > Hello, > > Nisargadatta Maharaj often speaks of the mind-body complex as > determined entirely by the five elements and the three gunas. Does that > mean that the elements and gunas are unchangeable, therefore real? > > Best regards, > > Mariusz > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Hello, Thank you for your answer. As we know, Maharaj constantly spoke on different epistemological levels, according to the understanding of the questioner. However, he never answered a question formulated on one level by a statement coming from a different level. I am afraid this is what is happening in our exchange: your answer is grounded in a bhakti attitude, while my question is concerned with, let's say, ontology or metaphysics. I would like to rephrase it: if the decisive characteristic of the true reality (the Absolute) is its permanence and immutability, how does this apply to the five elements and three gunas which are also apparently permanent and immutable and yet belong to the manifested (i.e., impermanent and mutable) reality? Best regards, Mariusz Nisargadatta , " ramanama06 " <ramanama06 wrote: > > > ha! questions about maharaj are best not put to this crowd. from the standpoint of a > sincere devotee of maharaj, i would respond to your question by encouraging you to shift > the focus of your attention from the observed/thought, to the witness/observer. if you are > ever to truly understand maharaj, the witness must remain at the forefront of your > attention. if you continue to have faith, you will assuredly find yourself without questions. > from the standpoint of giving a pointed answer to your question, i would say that as earth, > fire, and water are in constant ebb and flow into one another, so are sattva, tamas, and > rajas. one may have predominance in a certain instance, but that quickly changes. what is > happening, what is observed, maharaj says is not real. once again, an answer to this > question that does not encourage shifting the focus of attention from the observed to the > observer is at last not an answer at all. om. :0 > > > Nisargadatta , " mortlake2002 " <shamshir@> wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj often speaks of the mind-body complex as > > determined entirely by the five elements and the three gunas. Does that > > mean that the elements and gunas are unchangeable, therefore real? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Mariusz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 bhakti or no, faith makes all things possible in my world. as i see it, even fire requires the faith that it can burn. if i am not able to commmunicate it in a way that brings you satisfaction, i am sorry. i think you are already at the crux of your question. the only way that the absolute applies to the apparent is that the absolute makes the apparent possible. that`s it. there is no other relation. you are saying it yourself- " apparently permanent " - a contradiction in terms. looking for relation and or explanation of the manifest in the unmanifest is not possible. you will not reconcile one to the other. if you can see beyond your want for an answer to this question and witness the sincerity in which it was replied to, you may yet have some satisfaction regarding this. though not what you wanted or even expected it could be of greater value. if not, i continue to wish you well. Nisargadatta , " mortlake2002 " <shamshir wrote: > > Hello, > > Thank you for your answer. As we know, Maharaj constantly spoke on > different epistemological levels, according to the understanding of > the questioner. However, he never answered a question formulated on > one level by a statement coming from a different level. I am afraid > this is what is happening in our exchange: your answer is grounded in > a bhakti attitude, while my question is concerned with, let's say, > ontology or metaphysics. I would like to rephrase it: if the decisive > characteristic of the true reality (the Absolute) is its permanence > and immutability, how does this apply to the five elements and three > gunas which are also apparently permanent and immutable and yet > belong to the manifested (i.e., impermanent and mutable) reality? > > Best regards, > > Mariusz > > > Nisargadatta , " ramanama06 " <ramanama06@> > wrote: > > > > > > ha! questions about maharaj are best not put to this crowd. from > the standpoint of a > > sincere devotee of maharaj, i would respond to your question by > encouraging you to shift > > the focus of your attention from the observed/thought, to the > witness/observer. if you are > > ever to truly understand maharaj, the witness must remain at the > forefront of your > > attention. if you continue to have faith, you will assuredly find > yourself without questions. > > from the standpoint of giving a pointed answer to your question, i > would say that as earth, > > fire, and water are in constant ebb and flow into one another, so > are sattva, tamas, and > > rajas. one may have predominance in a certain instance, but that > quickly changes. what is > > happening, what is observed, maharaj says is not real. once again, > an answer to this > > question that does not encourage shifting the focus of attention > from the observed to the > > observer is at last not an answer at all. om. :0 > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " mortlake2002 " <shamshir@> > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj often speaks of the mind-body complex as > > > determined entirely by the five elements and the three gunas. > Does that > > > mean that the elements and gunas are unchangeable, therefore real? > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Mariusz > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Hi Mariusz, you wrote: >I would like to rephrase it: if the decisive characteristic of the true reality (the Absolute) is its permanence and immutability, how does this apply to the five elements and three gunas which are also apparently permanent and immutable and yet belong to the manifested (i.e., impermanent and mutable) reality? --- As I see it, the Gunas and the elements are qualities, they belong to the separating realm of the mind. They would instantly disappear in absolute awareness, or one-ness. Morover, you are calling the Absolute " permanent and immutable " . This may be true from the standpoint of the mind. But from the standpoint of the Absolute it cannot have any characteristics, because it cannot be experienced. The Gunas and elements are experienced. Some quotes from Nisargadatta: Q: Is there any difference between the experience of the Self (atman) and of the Absolute (brahman)? M: There can be no experience of the Absolute as it is beyond all experience. Q: The three gunas, sattva--rajas--tamas, are they only in matter, or also in the mind? M: In both, of course, because the two are not separate. It is only the absolute that is beyond gunas. In fact, these are but points of view, ways of looking. They exist only in the mind. Beyond the mind all distinctions cease. M: Reality is immovable and yet in constant movement. It is like a mighty river -- it flows and yet it is there -- eternally. What flows is not the river with its bed and banks, but its water, so does the sattva guna, the universal harmony, play its games against tamas and rajas, the forces of darkness and despair. In sattva there is always change and progress, in rajas there is change and regress, while tamas stands for chaos. The three Gunas play eternally against each other -- it is a fact and there can be no quarrel with a fact. M: As all waves are in the ocean, so are all things physical and mental in awareness. Hence awareness itself is all important, not the content of it. Deepen and broaden your awareness of yourself and all the blessings will flow. You need not seek anything, all will come to you most naturally and effortlessly. The five senses and the four functions of the mind -- memory, thought, understanding and selfhood; the five elements -- earth, water, fire, air and ether; the two aspects of creation -- matter and spirit, all are contained in awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Ramanama and Stefan, Thank you kindly for your replies. I need to think them over but they are certainly topical. In a day or two I will post my comments. Best regards, Mariusz Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Hi Mariusz, you wrote: > > >I would like to rephrase it: if the decisive characteristic of the > true reality (the Absolute) is its permanence and immutability, how > does this apply to the five elements and three gunas which are also > apparently permanent and immutable and yet belong to the manifested > (i.e., impermanent and mutable) reality? > > --- > As I see it, the Gunas and the elements are qualities, they belong to > the separating realm of the mind. They would instantly disappear in > absolute awareness, or one-ness. > > Morover, you are calling the Absolute " permanent and immutable " . This > may be true from the standpoint of the mind. But from the standpoint > of the Absolute it cannot have any characteristics, because it cannot > be experienced. The Gunas and elements are experienced. > > Some quotes from Nisargadatta: > > Q: Is there any difference between the experience of the Self > (atman) and of the Absolute (brahman)? > M: There can be no experience of the Absolute as it is beyond all > experience. > > Q: The three gunas, sattva--rajas--tamas, are they only in matter, or > also in the mind? > M: In both, of course, because the two are not separate. It is only > the absolute that is beyond gunas. In fact, these are but points of > view, ways of looking. They exist only in the mind. Beyond the mind > all distinctions cease. > > M: Reality is immovable and yet in constant movement. It is like a > mighty river -- it flows and yet it is there -- eternally. What flows > is not the river with its bed and banks, but its water, so does the > sattva guna, the universal harmony, play its games against tamas and > rajas, the forces of darkness and despair. In sattva there is always > change and progress, in rajas there is change and regress, while tamas > stands for chaos. The three Gunas play eternally against each other -- > it is a fact and there can be no quarrel with a fact. > > M: As all waves are in the ocean, so are all things physical and > mental in awareness. Hence awareness itself is all important, not the > content of it. Deepen and broaden your awareness of yourself and all > the blessings will flow. You need not seek anything, all will come to > you most naturally and effortlessly. The five senses and the four > functions of the mind -- memory, thought, understanding and selfhood; > the five elements -- earth, water, fire, air and ether; the two > aspects of creation -- matter and spirit, all are contained in awareness. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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