Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 I find nothing wrong with suffering. To me, trying to 'get rid of' () suffering is akin to Iron (or Gold) trying to get rid of 'fire burns'. Truth is that whenever Iron comes into contact with fire - it will burn - it is part of its nature. It is its 'role', its designated 'purpose' and it becomes Iron only because of fulfilling that role. It serves its 'role' in the 'leela' only by fulfilling that role. That 'burning' is what allows it to 'bend', 'become flexible' and to take thousand interesting [and useful ] shapes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 [...] > > What is your interpretation of the > cause and remedy of suffering? Suffering is an essential part of our design as 'human' being. Freedom from this 'nature' is neither possible, nor necessary or useful for us 'humans'! It serves many Greatly useful purposes and it is here to stay! [And, I notice that it has indeed stayed for eons!] To a large extent, suffering essepart of learning and of making memory imprints. For most part, human's ability to 'suffer' is also what makes many 'social systems' to work! It makes 'award' and 'punishment' work, it makes 'justice' work and it gives root to many other valuable 'human' qualities such as compassion, understanding and human-to-human bonding! I am glad that our 'ability' to suffer is here to stay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hi AC - Good point. There is nothing that isn't " fuel for the fire of being-aware. " Including delusions, illusions, sense of separation, and suffering. Ignorance and wisdom interdependently arise. Everything that was excluded, is included. Everything that was included, dissolves. -- D. (nothing new below) Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > After many questions, inquiries, > introspection, reflections on > suffering, the LAST question > I encountered was: > > I shouldn't suffer. > > Is that true? > > > I noticed that my foolish, 'egoic', deluded and selfish > belief in this 'false' idea had often caused me far more > pain than any real suffering. Further, it often also > blocked many useful lessons and growth opportunities > that 'suffering' provides! > > > I noticed that my belief in this false idea > was the basis of my numerous 'false' searches > to 'get rid of' suffering too... > > But, when that Very IDEA was questioned and found it false, > > I was often left without ANY reason to... > 'escape' the Present Moment! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 If suffering is such a useful experience, then why do I bother trying to alleviate it for myself and others? Silver Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Hi AC - > > Good point. > > There is nothing that isn't " fuel for the fire of being-aware. " > > Including delusions, illusions, sense of separation, and suffering. > > Ignorance and wisdom interdependently arise. > > Everything that was excluded, is included. > > Everything that was included, dissolves. > > -- D. > > (nothing new below) > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > > > After many questions, inquiries, > > introspection, reflections on > > suffering, the LAST question > > I encountered was: > > > > I shouldn't suffer. > > > > Is that true? > > > > > > I noticed that my foolish, 'egoic', deluded and selfish > > belief in this 'false' idea had often caused me far more > > pain than any real suffering. Further, it often also > > blocked many useful lessons and growth opportunities > > that 'suffering' provides! > > > > > > I noticed that my belief in this false idea > > was the basis of my numerous 'false' searches > > to 'get rid of' suffering too... > > > > But, when that Very IDEA was questioned and found it false, > > > > I was often left without ANY reason to... > > 'escape' the Present Moment! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069 wrote: > > If suffering is such a useful experience, then why do I bother trying to alleviate it for myself and others? > Silver Is there anything which is not " useful " ? Has God/Creation/Existence created anything which is not " useful " ? Is God/Creation/Existence a " fool " and it creates and persists with things which are useless and unnecessary? .... To me, suffering is one way God/Creation/Universe " talks " to me. [And, once I understand its message...] Love is the way I talk to the God/Creation/Universe. Ability to 'feel', 'accept' and 'understand' 'suffering' is one of the Greatest gift that humans have because, that TRULY open many doors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 GuruRatings , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: GuruRatings , anna <anna@> wrote: > > After many questions, inquiries, > introspection, reflections on > suffering, the LAST question > I encountered was: > > I shouldn't suffer. > > Is that true? > > I noticed that my foolish, 'egoic', deluded and selfish > belief in this 'false' idea often caused me more > pain than any real suffering. Further, it often also > blocked many useful lessons and growth opportunities > that 'suffering' provides! > > I noticed that my belief in this false idea > was the basis of my numerous 'false' searches > to 'get rid of' suffering too... > > But, when that Very IDEA was questioned and found it false, > > I was often left without ANY reason to... > 'escape' the Present Moment! > ---------------- > > Adithya, > > Here is what I have come to in the past six months and I think it is from acim. I find that when I can apply this, I do not experience emotional pain, suffering. Do you still need to apply it again and again? Or, have you really become " free " of pain and suffering. In my experience, no one is free of suffering, no one should be and no one needs to be. Pain is among the most powerful " communicators " ! It is one of the Most Effective and Direct way that the Universe/God/Creation " talks " to us. Being 'deaf' to this communication is neither necessary nor useful. > In fact, I have this written out on a note > card on my computer desk. Now, I say remember because I am conditioned to respond in egoic ways and those always lead to suffering. What we often call 'egoic' way; is often just the result of little 'misunderstanding'! It is based on false ideas and three of these utterly false ideas are: - I should not suffer. - I should be happy. - My wishes should be fulfilled. I have noticed that even after spending years " searching " - many spiritual 'seekers' are still unwilling to give up these ideas. In fact, these three ideas often start search, sustain the search and many times they survive even after the search is deemed 'fulfilled'! Yet, in my mind, these are among most basic misunderstanding that we have. > > The first thing I realized was that most of my perceptions are based on the past For a very good reason: All " knowledge " comes from Past and we are a 'knowledge based' animal. That is among our most vital strengths. > and I have not reexamined these in the light of the present. I saw further that I am very much like a robot acting on past programing. For a Very Good reason: This is the way humans are 'designed' to function. This is what enables us to 'multi task'. This is what allows us to function effectively without having to learn same thing again and again. This is how 'evolution' takes place and most importantly because our 'sub conscious' is greatly more effective in performing what it has learnt than our conscious. It just needs some training, guidance and practice that's all. Sub-conscious runs our body. It runs our heart, it pumps blood, it breathes, it regulates our sleep, it regulates our temperature, it regulates our hormones and… it also drives our cars and… most importantly it does most our thinking! And, it does a WONDERFUL job pretty much everywhere. I think, thinking is the only job that it ends up doing somewhat poorly and I think, thinking is the job which can improve DRAMATICALLY with some 'Conscious' participation! I think, only thing that we might benefit by continuing to do 'consciously' is… thinking! > I did not previously see that my perceptions were more often than not incorrect so I was acting on beliefs I picked up in my past. Sure... > > Though these may sound simple, they definitely work for me and when I am able to utilize them and not fall back into conditioned responses, I have peace and contentment. Sure... What I find even more important is whether that " process " is still 'conscious' [i.e. you have to remember to do it] or if it has already become automatic. The second happens when the sub-conscious gets 'trained' to think, act and behave in the " new " way. I have seen that sub-conscious is one of the BEST asset that we have but, sometimes it needs to be 'fed', 'guided', 'molded' and 'trained' to function in desired way through Conscious. > > 1. Judge no one I see 'judging' is part of 'knowledge' and among one of the Most Basic Human Trait. By 'judging' all we are trying to do is to 'predict' 'future' behavior and it is among our most basic 'survival' traits. 'Not judging' sure sounds very nice and " cool " spiritually and " politically " - yet, in my observation, there has never been a human who doesn't judge. It is neither necessary nor useful. But yes, some 'observation', 'guidance' and 'correction' by Conscious is important here too! > 2. Forgive utterly In my experience, " forgiving " is not something you can " do " ! In fact, whenever you try to " do " it - at the best, you will end up 'pretending'! Forgiveness is the side effect of RIGHT understanding. It comes with understanding that what someone DID - was not really his/her fault [sometimes, because, they didn't really have any other choice!]. Sometimes forgiveness also comes because we understand that the universe doesn't have to be " about me " or " for me " and that the things/people can and should be the way they are! > 3. Resist nothing In my experience, we exist only because you resist! Resistance can surely mean " pain " many times yet, when done with right 'understanding' and with 'consciousness' it is the way of Human Growth and Evolution! And, in my mind, that is one reason why we are here! In my mind, our " personal " pleasure/pain/suffering/salvation is far less important that what it means at the grander scale - at the scale of that which WILL " outlast " us [something like the Universe, Humanity, " life " for example…]! And, whether we 'believe' it or not - it is ALREADY True! Universe and everybody around us is ALREADY " programmed " to treat us that way! And, when we try to make it the OTHER way [i.e. my " personal " suffering/salvation is more important all else] the universe does [and should] attempt to fight or abandon us! > > This first one has to do with seeing that we are not different from each other. We all want to be free of suffering. Yes, many kids want toys - even when it means fighting with some other kids. > We all want peace and > contentment. Yes, many kids want clean and dry diapers - even when it means waking us parents and neighbors. > We go about this in different ways depending upon our > individual level of awareness but what we want is the same. Or, we might " grow " and question that very want! We might realize that we are here on an 'invitation' and that we owe our each breathe and each drop of our blood to the Universe - to the creative Evolutionary, Unfolding, Progressing 'leela'! Realizing that we might SEE that this 'leela' has ALREADY done enough for us - perhaps, now, it is my turn to participate in it 'Consciously'! > So if my > neighbor does things that initially irritate me, I remind myself that she and I are the same. We want the same thing and all of us do as well as we can. Yes, two kids often want SAME toy and many times end up fighting. > With that thought, judging leaves me. But I've yet to > discover a way to get around self judging. 'Self judging' can be a good way towards growth as long it is 'understood' and done consciously. [...] > > Now, I do agree with you that we can learn from painful experiences. > But I swear I have had those all my life and never learned a damn thing. May of use have done similar things! Maybe, because we are so " busy " resisting it and in trying to 'escape' to no pain zone that we were not really available to Consciously SEE, understand and learn from it! In my experience, suffering and resistance [including the " wish " to be somewhere else] go together! It is impossible to suffer [for long] without resisting it and without wishing to be somewhere else! Absent the resistance and the wish to be somewhere else… Pain is just quick and very effective message - decode it, understand it and use it! It is just a friend. > I read once that a difference between humans and laboratory ratswere that rats would stop a behavior once there was longer a pleasant outcome, some reward. The point was that humans will continue the same behavior over and over again without a pleasant outcome or reward. I am not sure of that. We might 'persist' little longer but, only because we somehow " see " a possibility! Remember the story: Tie a baby elephant with heavy iron chain that it can't break and once the elephant grows up it never tries to break again even when it is tied with a string that it could easily break. You can surely not do it with [most] humans! [...] > AnnaW Best Wishes, ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 If suffering is such a useful experience, then why do I bother trying to alleviate it for myself and others? Silver ************** Is there anything which is not " useful " ? Has God/Creation/Existence created anything which is not " useful " ? Is God/Creation/Existence a " fool " and it creates and persists with things which are useless and unnecessary? {{{{These are questions for your God to answer.}}}} ***************** To me, suffering is one way God/Creation/Universe " talks " to me. [And, once I understand its message...] {{{{No doubt your God " talks " to you through making you suffer. I am not doubting what you say.}}}} ***************** Love is the way I talk to the God/Creation/Universe. {{{{Okay...so your God makes you suffer and you are in a loving relationship with Her. She communicates suffering to you while you respond to Her in a loving way.... Have you understood Her messages?}}}} ***************** Ability to 'feel', 'accept' and 'understand' 'suffering' is one of the Greatest gift that humans have because, that TRULY open many doors... {{{I need a bit more than that if I am to agree with what you are saying.}}}} :-) Silver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Silver " <silver-1069 wrote: > > If suffering is such a useful experience, > then why do I bother trying > to alleviate it for myself and others? > > Silver > ************** > Is there anything which is not " useful " ? > > Has God/Creation/Existence created anything > which is not " useful " ? > > Is God/Creation/Existence a " fool " and it > creates and persists with things which are > useless and unnecessary? > > {{{{These are questions for your God to answer.}}}} YOU are not that different than " my " God! > ***************** > To me, suffering is one way > God/Creation/Universe " talks " to me. > [And, once I understand its message...] > > {{{{No doubt your God " talks " to you through making you suffer. I am > not doubting what you say.}}}} Sure... Like you might say/do something that can make me 'suffer' if I say/do something that you see as 'deserving suffering'. > ***************** > Love is the way I talk to the > God/Creation/Universe. > > {{{{Okay...so your God makes you suffer and you are in a loving > relationship with Her. That is " one " thing that she does but, not the only thing. Love is one thing that I do but, not the " only " thing. > She communicates suffering to you while you > respond to Her in a loving way.... Have you understood Her > messages?}}}} Not all of them. > ***************** > Ability to 'feel', 'accept' and 'understand' > 'suffering' is one of the Greatest gift that > humans have because, that TRULY open many doors... > > {{{I need a bit more than that if I am to agree with what you are > saying.}}}} Sure, maybe, you need more 'suffering' ;-) Best, ac > > :-) > > Silver > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Is there anything which is not " useful " ? Has God/Creation/Existence created anything which is not " useful " ? Is God/Creation/Existence a " fool " and it creates and persists with things which are useless and unnecessary? {{{{These are questions for your God to answer.}}}} YOU are not that different than " my " God! {{{Are you saying that I am the Creator of your world? Our worlds are very different. Apparently, yours is populated with gods and words and ideas, ideals, concepts of suffering humans. Mine has nothing of the sort.}}} ***************** To me, suffering is one way God/Creation/Universe " talks " to me. [And, once I understand its message...] {{{{No doubt your God " talks " to you through making you suffer. I am not doubting what you say.}}}} Sure... Like you might say/do something that can make me 'suffer' if I say/do something that you see as 'deserving suffering'. {{{If I were anything like the god you somehow think that I am, I might. But since I'm not, your statement above does not apply.}}} ***************** Love is the way I talk to the God/Creation/Universe. {{{{Okay...so your God makes you suffer and you are in a loving relationship with Her. That is " one " thing that she does but, not the only thing. Love is one thing that I do but, not the " only " thing. {{{If you assign anthropomorphic qualities to this god of yours, what you say might make some sense, I suppose.}}} ***************** {{{She communicates suffering to you while you respond to Her in a loving way.... Have you understood Her messages?}}}} Not all of them. {{{Why not? Is there a language barrier between you or something?}}} ***************** Ability to 'feel', 'accept' and 'understand' 'suffering' is one of the Greatest gift that humans have because, that TRULY open many doors... {{{I need a bit more than that if I am to agree with what you are saying.}}}} Sure, maybe, you need more 'suffering' ;-) Best, ac {{{Okay, well, I guess that's the end of this discussion then. Take care of yourself, buddy. Enjoy a life of suffering. I'm just content enough to understand it and accept it. I'll go about my business of helping to alleviate suffering wherever I see it if I can, while you go on contemplating its 'benefit' to others. Have a good night!}}} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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