Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > I liked your posting, I am so glad that you liked it Stefan! > just one thing I would like to comment... Sure, Stefan . . . > > >Use thinking one way and it can create > >depression, fear, and anxiety. Use it > >other way and it can create ecstasy, > >elation and joy. > > is it really possible to chose between > depression - ecstasy > fear - elation > anxiety - joy? If you have planted a mango seed; you may not really be able to " choose " to pick apples from that plant! If you have planted cactus - you may not really be able to roses from that plant! But, simple Awareness of the 'law of nature' can tell you what seeds grow into which plant and which plan grows what fruits! And, that Awareness provide you with guidance for what seeds to plant and what fruits to expect from the seeds you have planted. And, when you plant your 'seeds' with Awareness - seeds are bound to follow the law of nature and grow into corresponding plants bearing corresponding fruits! Similarly. . . One kind of thinking produces one kind of emotions. One kind of thinking produces one kind of actions. One kind of action produces one kind of results. A simple observation is all that is required to understand what kind of thoughts produce what kind of emotions! Then, if you plant your seed [of thought] with that awareness it is bound to grow in its corresponding fruit [of action]! However, as long as the plant of your previous seeds [of thought] is alive… you are bound to reap the fruits [of emotions and actions] of the seed you sowed in past! There is no " choosing " in that. . . > > >But, you can learn which > >way it hurts and which way it doesn't > >and thus, learn to use it better. And, > >again, that is a simple mechanics and > >it is not necessarily to be spiritual, > >religious or enlightened in order to > >observe and understand it. > > in my understanding... > thinking cannot be used > the " user " is a conglomerate of thoughts The 'concept' of user is a " conglomerate of thoughts " but, not the 'user' itself! You, Stefan are not a " conglomerate of thoughts', Stefan! But, what you might " think " 'yourself to be'... is! Similarly, what I think of you to be; is again a " conglomerate of thoughts " - a " conglomerate of thoughts " possibly quite different that yours! Yet, you are ALWAYS Real... What I think of you is… just a concept; but, that 'concept' is NEVER the real user! > therefore thinking using thinking > is like a cat biting its tail It is not really possible for " thinking " to " use " thinking but, yes it is possible for the THINKER to think that " thinking is using thinking " - but, then, that is just " confused " thinking! And, every THINKER does have the ability to have confused thinking! Yet, the THINKER is Always Real! > > to use thinking > cannot lead to no-thinking It surely can. . . One of its effects is called " exhaustion " . . . leading to 'no- thinking' Other is called 'surrender'. . . leading to 'no-thinking' Other is called 'resolution'. . . leading to 'no-thinking' And, yet other is called Clarity. . . leading to 'no-thinking' Can thoughts cause Clarity? Yes, they can! > no-thinking means not to be the user No-thinking simply means 'no-thinking'! User is ALWAYS there! > > Stefan > Regards, ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Hi ac! If I disagree in some points, it is maybe a different way of putting things into words letting go of the idea that anything is more " positive " than anything else can be a big, big relief So, I cannot relate to the idea that I am capable of planting seeds Those seeds and those plants are presented to me as they come and go in the course of time (once time comes into play) as processes that take care of themselves here is no thinker here is just thinking floating as it floats happening as it happens You mention: exhaustion - surrender - resolution those are not actions nor manipulations they are related to letting go into what is I hope this does not sound pathetic to me it is very simple a kind of helplessness Greetings Stefan Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > wrote: > > > > I liked your posting, > > > I am so glad that you liked it Stefan! > > > > just one thing I would like to > comment... > > Sure, Stefan . . . > > > > > >Use thinking one way and it can > create > > >depression, fear, and anxiety. Use it > > >other way and it can create ecstasy, > > >elation and joy. > > > > is it really possible to chose between > > depression - ecstasy > > fear - elation > > anxiety - joy? > >If you have planted a mango seed; > >you may not really be able to " choose " to >pick apples from that plant! > >If you have planted cactus - >you may not really be able to roses from that >plant! > >But, simple Awareness of the >'law of nature' can tell you what seeds >grow into which plant and which plan >grows what fruits! And, that Awareness >provide you with guidance for what >seeds to plant and what fruits to >expect from the seeds you have planted. >And, when you plant your 'seeds' with >Awareness - seeds are bound to follow >the law of nature and grow into >corresponding plants bearing >corresponding fruits! > >Similarly. . . > > >One kind of thinking produces one kind >of emotions. > >One kind of thinking produces one kind >of actions. > >One kind of action produces one kind >of results. > > >A simple observation is all that is >required to understand what kind of >thoughts produce what kind of emotions! >Then, if you plant your seed [of >thought] with that awareness it is >bound to grow in its corresponding >fruit [of action]! However, as long as >the plant of your previous seeds [of >thought] is alive… you are bound to >reap the fruits [of emotions and >actions] of the seed you sowed in past! >There is no " choosing " in that. . . > > > > > > > >But, you can learn which > > >way it hurts and which way it doesn't > > >and thus, learn to use it better. And, > > >again, that is a simple mechanics and > > >it is not necessarily to be spiritual, > > >religious or enlightened in order to > > >observe and understand it. > > > > in my understanding... > > thinking cannot be used > > the " user " is a conglomerate of thoughts > > > >The 'concept' of user is a > " conglomerate of thoughts " but, >not the 'user' itself! > > >You, Stefan are not a " conglomerate of >thoughts', Stefan! But, what you might > " think " 'yourself to be'... is! > >Similarly, what I think of you to be; >is again a " conglomerate of thoughts " - >a " conglomerate of thoughts " possibly >quite different that yours! > > >Yet, you are ALWAYS Real... > >What I think of you is… just a concept; >but, that 'concept' is NEVER the real >user! > > > > therefore thinking using thinking > > is like a cat biting its tail > >It is not really possible for > " thinking " to " use " thinking but, > >yes it is possible for the THINKER to >think that " thinking is using thinking " - >but, then, that is just " confused " thinking! > >And, every THINKER does have the ability to >have confused thinking! > > >Yet, the THINKER is Always Real! > > > > > > to use thinking > > cannot lead to no-thinking > > >It surely can. . . > >One of its effects is called " exhaustion " . . . leading to 'no- >thinking' > >Other is called 'surrender'. . . leading to 'no-thinking' > >Other is called 'resolution'. . . leading to 'no-thinking' > >And, yet other is called Clarity. . . leading to 'no-thinking' > > > >Can thoughts cause Clarity? > >Yes, they can! > > >> no-thinking means not to be the user > >No-thinking simply means 'no-thinking'! > >User is ALWAYS there! > > > > > Stefan > > > > Regards, > ac > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Hi ac! > > If I disagree in some points, > it is maybe a different way > of putting things into words > > letting go of the idea > that anything is more " positive " > than anything else > can be a big, big relief So what is this 'big, big relief " ??? Is this something " positive " , something 'desirable' that you find Good??? > > So, I cannot relate to the idea > that I am capable of planting seeds Are you 'capable' of reading and comprehending these words and then to think and respond??? If yes, you are 'capable' of it! If not, why are you 'kidding' yourself??? Are you capable of 'philosophical' discussion would you do it even it goes against the readily apparent proof? > > Those seeds and those plants > are presented to me Sure, I [or God] is 'forcing' them down your throat > as they come and go > in the course of time Without having anything to do with " you " - just like my reply to your message! 'Philosphy' can INDEED make for very Strange Discussions! > (once time comes into play) > as processes that take care of themselves Sure, as your 'response' to this message will 'take care of itself' > > here is no thinker > here is just thinking That sounds too " absurd " to me But, it can surely serve many 'non dual' discussions > floating as it floats > happening as it happens Sure and your neighbor's wife just gets pregnant - it just HAPPENED! If this is what 'non duality' teaches then, it must be among the most deluded philosophy man has ever thought - but, luckily, this is NOT what nonduality teaches! > > You mention: > exhaustion - surrender - resolution > > those are not actions > nor manipulations Yes, and, you neigbour's wife just got pregnant! > they are related to letting go > into what is Why bother with 'letting go of' anything if you are really 'not interested' in any " positive " or " negative " ??? Or, are you simply repeating what some 'non dual' 'experts' taught you? > > I hope this does not sound pathetic > to me it is very simple > a kind of helplessness To me, it is simple case of " confused " by ignoring many Readily Available proofs to the contrary! I feel sorry if anyone can really interpret 'nonduality' to be this way! > > Greetings > Stefan > PS: Sorry for many unkind words in my message and sorry for the overall cruel tone of my message! Or, should I just say that message 'just happens', I am not the doer and there is nothing " positive " and " negative " , nothing kind or unkind, polite or disrespectful ?;) But, then, I am not so keen on sounding too 'non dual'! Day-to-day manifest Reality is good enough for me! So, sorry for any unkind remarks in the message! Bye, ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: >So what is this 'big, big relief " ??? > >Is this something " positive " , >something 'desirable' that you find Good??? It is not the acquirement of something. The relief marks the end of all false. Greetings Stefan (sorry if I have difficulties to make myself more clear or understandable) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > >It is not the acquirement of something. >The relief marks the end of all false. What I mean: the relief is the point from where you do not want to change anything anymore... I think it is our judgment " this is good " - " this is bad " which creates the situation in which we feel that we have to take action in order to change this very situation. So, we try to change something but ignore that the attitude of changing is the cause of that what we fight It is like trying to wash blood with blood. When we plan to plant good seeds to let them grow to pleasant situations How do we know which seeds are good which seeds are bad? We know it through our judgment only. Planting a good seed with good intentions may cause all kind of side effects which are not good at all or may create suffering for others When I give up all judgment I observe that all growing processes (in the course of time) do happen naturally This includes writing this posting and receiving your answer. Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > >It is not the acquirement of something. > >The relief marks the end of all false. > > What I mean: > the relief is the point from where > you do not want to change anything > anymore... > > I think it is our judgment > " this is good " - " this is bad " > which creates the situation > in which we feel that we have to take action > in order to change this very situation. > > So, we try to change something > but ignore that the attitude of changing > is the cause of that > what we fight > > It is like trying to wash blood with blood. > > When we plan to plant good seeds > to let them grow to pleasant situations > How do we know which seeds are good > which seeds are bad? > > We know it through our judgment only. > > Planting a good seed > with good intentions > may cause all kind of side effects > which are not good at all > or may create suffering for others > > When I give up all judgment > I observe that all growing processes > (in the course of time) > do happen naturally > > This includes writing this posting > and receiving your answer. > > Greetings > Stefan Hi Stefan, Good to see you, AC, Dan, and Silver, and the exalted bobby baba trying to harmmer Jello into a sword. This is something of a dull knife I wrote for another list, and that might cut the mustar here: The greed to control our life, our experiences, our very consciousness seems stronger in us. After all, some people kill themselves when life's conditions become. in their view, intolerable. So, IMO is this greed to control which is the mother of all vasanas, and of course, the will to destroy all vasanas, is also the operation of this greed to control. As long as this greed to control is operating there is a division between what is, and what should be. So, attachment is a vasana. If someone breaks my favorite X, I can become angry, and then feel bad because I'm angry, and then try to control the anger, and then realize I'm attached to not being angry, and further, I'm attached to control my states of mind. What happens when this constant controlling posture is seen as a separation from the now, as an effort to try to change the now into an ideal future? Is this possible? Can this instant be changed at will? Or will it change on its own regardless of our actions? What will happen if all these is clearly seen, without trying to fight any of it? How will that moment be? Would there be a me judging, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > >It is not the acquirement of something. > >The relief marks the end of all false. > > What I mean: > the relief is the point from where > you do not want to change anything > anymore... You don't have any such choice Change and wanting to change are 'constant' part of the flow of life! The can 'rest' for a moment - but, they never really stop! > > I think it is our judgment > " this is good " - " this is bad " 'Judgment' is the integral part of human thinking as well as animal 'living'. It can not be given up - it is intrinsic to who we are. Even our cells, our immune system use judgment to decide what is friend and foe, what is good or bad. It is part of our 'design'! > which creates the situation > in which we feel that we have to take action > in order to change this very situation. Taking action too is integral part of human life! > > So, we try to change something > but ignore that the attitude of changing > is the cause of that > what we fight That happens only as long as we are unaware of the 'law of nature' in action - like when try to put out fire by throwing kerosene in it. But, with little observation, intelligence and awareness we learn that water works to slow down or extinguish most fires! > > It is like trying to wash blood with blood. Yes, unawareness can be like that. Little knowledge and awareness can easily point you to the soap and water ;} > > When we plan to plant good seeds > to let them grow to pleasant situations > How do we know which seeds are good > which seeds are bad? With observation and intelligence! How do you decide to feed your kids Alcohol or Milk? How do you choose between the two? What you ask your kids to read - Porn or Science? How do you choose between the two? Or, are you telling me that you are totally dysfunctional and have no ability to choose between Alcohol and Milk [for a kid] and Porn and Science ?;) I know many folks do use [fake] 'no duality' to force themselves to think and act in dysfunctional way I hope you don't do that! I know you are an intelligent person but, I also know that any intelligent person can force himself to 'stupidity'! And, frankly, way some folks try to 'interpret', use and force themselves to think of 'non duality'... is Plain Stupid! > > We know it through our judgment only. Sure… > > Planting a good seed > with good intentions > may cause all kind of side effects > which are not good at all And, so...??? Do you cook your soup in your " pee " ? Or, do you cook it in good clean water? > or may create suffering for others > > When I give up all judgment That is not possible [unless you became a totally dysfunctional human - but, in such case you might attempt to eat 'shit'! It is only your good 'judgment' that asks you to eat bread and butter and not shit!] Temporary suspension is possible, but STOP is not possible! > I observe that all growing processes > (in the course of time) > do happen naturally Including " thinking " and " judgment " ?;) Or, does this " natural " process excludes... " thinking " and " judgment " ??? > > This includes writing this posting > and receiving your answer. Sure, please accept my " naturally " occurring apologies for my unkind words and remarks that might have " naturally " occurred in my message [Was that 'fake' [non dual] enough ?;)] > > Greetings > Stefan > Be Well [and be sure to turn ON the light without thinking what kind of 'suffering' your turning light might cause to whom and where;)], ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: >>When we plan to plant good seeds >>to let them grow to pleasant situations >>How do we know which seeds are good >>which seeds are bad? > >With observation and intelligence! How do you decide >to feed your kids Alcohol or Milk? How do you choose >between the two? What you ask your kids to read - >Porn or Science? How do you choose between the two? AC, as I recall, we were talking about " planting seeds " by " thinking the right thoughts " . The way I understand you you say it is possible to become " enlightened " (or more happy?) by deliberately thinking the right thoughts which you later described as " planting the right seeds " . I am questioning this approach and I have explained why. It is not my intention to criticise you But I like to show my differing opinion and I hope this is o.k. for you. Now, those personal things you say about me... Yes, in fact, I am dysfunctional in one sense: I cannot turn the clock backwards. But, can you? Like you I take decisions all the time. They are taken to my best ability and I trust that they are right. But I cannot control the results. Maybe I could, if I was able to turn the clock backwards. In this case I could adjust my decisions in hindsight Until they exactly match my intention. Moreover, I do not feel that my life is " fake non duality " . What does " non-duality " mean to you? Just like " enlightenment " this sounds kind of... artificial to me. I am feeling joy and pain, I have preferences and antipathies like everyone else. Is this not natural? I just find it remarkable that those things are coming and going and I cannot fundamentally change them!!! They change along with everything else, inevitably!!! I can move only forward (in course of time) along with everything. All which is to my disposal is this moment. What can one do with one moment, Can it be caught and controlled? No! But it can be danced. It can be sung and played. AC, just once again, and then you can make out of it whatever you want: I do not think that it is possible for the mind to program itself to perfection. When I am unhappy with my thoughts I do not use my thoughts to get rid of my thoughts. For me (!) this does not work. I have tried long time. I feel it is like washing blood with blood, as Nisargadatta has said it. I prefer clean water. Greetings Stefan >And, frankly, way some folks try to 'interpret', >use and force themselves to think of 'non duality'... is Plain >Stupid! I do not think that we should try to plant seeds in our mind in order to become enlightened... thats all. >That is not possible >[unless you became a totally dysfunctional human - >but, in such case you might attempt to eat 'shit'! >It is only your good 'judgment' that asks you to >eat bread and butter and not shit!] Taking decisions does not mean judgment I do > > > Temporary suspension is possible, but STOP is not possible! > > > I observe that all growing processes > > (in the course of time) > > do happen naturally > > Including " thinking " and " judgment " ?;) > > Or, does this " natural " process excludes... " thinking " > and " judgment " ??? > > > > > > This includes writing this posting > > and receiving your answer. > > Sure, please accept my " naturally " occurring apologies > for my unkind words and remarks that might have > " naturally " occurred in my message > > [Was that 'fake' [non dual] enough ?;)] > > > > > Greetings > > Stefan > > > >Be Well [and be sure to turn ON the light >without thinking what kind of 'suffering' >your turning light might cause to whom and where;)], > > ac > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > >>When we plan to plant good seeds > >>to let them grow to pleasant situations > >>How do we know which seeds are good > >>which seeds are bad? > > > >With observation and intelligence! How do you decide > >to feed your kids Alcohol or Milk? How do you choose > >between the two? What you ask your kids to read - > >Porn or Science? How do you choose between the two? > > AC, as I recall, > we were talking about " planting seeds " by > " thinking the right thoughts " . I wouldn't call them " right " thoughts just like I wouldn't call mango seed right and apple seed wrong. I simply ask to observe that mango tree produces mango fruit and apple produces apple. Similarly thoughts have their corresponding resultant emotions and actions. > > The way I understand you > you say it is possible to become " enlightened " > (or more happy?) > by deliberately thinking the right thoughts I am certainly not saying that one would become " enlightened " by thinking a particular kind of thought! Or, maybe, you will… as Ramana talks about inquiring into Who Am I or holding the I or Abiding as the Meditator . But, that is not what I am saying here. Happy and sad - yes, one kind of thoughts can produce happiness and sadness! > which you later described as > " planting the right seeds " . Again, it is not about " right " or " wrong " - it is about what we unknowingly or unknowingly " sow " , we usually reap! > > I am questioning this approach > and I have explained why. But, as we have discovered, perhaps, you understood me little differently that how I intended. > It is not my intention to criticize you I don't think you are criticizing me. ONTOH… I am surely being very critical to cruel to what I consider 'fake' 'non duality' which I see being used quite dishonestly to either win useless arguments or to " hide " away from the 'apparent' 'difficulties' of real Life! > But I like to show my differing opinion > and I hope this is o.k. for you. It sure is OK with me and even it was not OK with me, it still is your freedom to do so - it is a public forum, I don't own it and you are being quite civil, cordial and respectful! > > Now, those personal things you say about me... > Yes, in fact, I am dysfunctional in one sense: > I cannot turn the clock backwards. > But, can you? I sure can How difficult it is to turn the clock ?;) Even my 2 years old son knows how to do it But, seriously, I am not talking about turning back the clock! On the contrary, I said in my message that if you have planted mango seed [in past] that has grown into mango tree - you can not pick apples from that tree. > > Like you I take decisions all the time. That is good to know. This I know that you know yourself to be an 'ordinary' person like me and I am not discussing with some 'fake' 'non dualist' type > They are taken to my best ability > and I trust that they are right. > But I cannot control the results. And, I am not suggesting that we " control " them! We don't really " control " to make mango seed into mango fruit bearing tree. We simply plant the seed and with right soil, sun, water and time nature makes them grow into the tree. We simply observe, learn and then plant and let nature do what the rest. > > Maybe I could, if I was able > to turn the clock backwards. As I mentioned, I am not suggesting that. > In this case I could adjust my decisions in hindsight > Until they exactly match my intention. As we know, just 'intentions' are not enough! Understanding the 'law of nature' is far more important and crucial! If because of our unawareness and lack of understanding; we planted mango seed it is likely to grow into a mango plant and not an apple tree! All we can then do is to enjoy the apples and use that knowledge and awareness for future planting! I am not asking to turn apple into a mango tree [turning back the clock] - but, in the future, if we want to grow mangoes, we know which seed not to plant! > > Moreover, I do not feel that my life is " fake non duality " . I am not suggesting that! I don't think anybody's life is 'fake' or 'real' 'no duality'! No matter what we say, we live in 'duality'! Fake 'non duality' is simply a hiding place that some of us use in speech [and thoughts] because we are too afraid to venture into " real " life or because, we want to convince ourselves and others of our 'special-i-ness' or, because, we got too attached to the 'comforts' and supreme 'pleasures' of 'not thinking'! I have done all of that myself at number of occasions and for many months and thus I am 'intimately' familiar with this territory! > What does " non-duality " mean to you? A Philosophy... Used one way, it can provide 'experimental' answers to spiritual questions like: - Who am I? - Where I came from? - Where will I go? - What is my purpose? - What will happen when I die? - Who created me? - What is the universe? Used another way, it can work like opium that you can use to " hide " from the " real " life as the 'pleasure' and 'comforts' of 'no thinking' might be supremely more 'pleasurable' than dealing in " real " life and " thinking " ! > Just like " enlightenment " this sounds kind of... > artificial to me. Every word can seem 'artificial' or 'real' depending on your experience with it! Like pain of child birth or menstruation can seem 'artificial' to me! > > I am feeling joy and pain, > I have preferences and antipathies That is Great… > like everyone else. INDEED > Is this not natural? I think, it is " natural " ! > > I just find it remarkable that > those things are coming and going Just like seasons… Yet, little more observation can tell you that there is something that makes seasons change and that there can be something like 'global warming' that can even change patterns of seasons! > and I cannot fundamentally change them!!! Yes and know… Please read above. > They change along with everything else, > inevitably!!! Please read above. > > I can move only forward (in course of time) Or, 'non dually' speaking… You do NOT move at all! Yet, things [including the body known as Stefan] change! > along with everything. > All which is to my disposal > is this moment. > > What can one do with one moment, What you want to do? You can make love to a woman. Have a cup of coffee. Solve a problem for your boss. Write a poetry. Listen to music. Throw a stone at your neighbor's house. Watch porn. Read " how to program in Java " , " how to build web pages " . Or, you can read and answer my mail. You have many choices and depending on which one you take - their outcome might be quite different! > Can it be caught and controlled? Please read above! > No! But it can be danced. > It can be sung and played. That sounds quite 'poetic' and… quite 'Meaningless' [in the given context] > > AC, just once again, > and then you can make out of it > whatever you want: > I do not think that it is possible > for the mind to program itself > to perfection. There is no such thing as 'perfection' for any 'living' entity! I am not taking about 'perfection'! I am simply talking about cooling water to make ice and boiling it to make vapor. > > When I am unhappy with my thoughts Being 'unhappy with thoughts' too... is a thought! > I do not use my thoughts to get rid of my thoughts. But, you can! Like when you watch movie... you forget many other thoughts! > For me (!) this does not work. Or, it does but, you forgot to notice it this time! Think about yellow, white, red roses in full bloom near a lake in a garden full of green grass under sunny blue sky with some white clouds! And, you might notice that thinking that thought has made lose thoughts of 'elephants'! > I have tried long time. And, you forgot that it does work ?;) Or, did it really not work the way you initially thought it would? > I feel it is like washing blood with blood, > as Nisargadatta has said it. I don't know what Niz had said in this regard. I will simply recommend using water and soap and not 'falsely' assume that if blood can not wash blood; the, it can not be washed at all! > I prefer clean water. Sure and that's what I recommend for washing blood. Yet, when you need 'blood transfusion', blood might work better than water! That's why I am not talking about 'right' or 'wrong' but, simply about observing what does what... then, simply plant 'right' seed for right plant like water for washing and blood for transfusion. It doesn't mean one is right and other is wrong. It simply means one does A and other does B! > > Greetings > Stefan > […] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > > >It is not the acquirement of something. > > >The relief marks the end of all false. > > > > What I mean: > > the relief is the point from where > > you do not want to change anything > > anymore... > > > > I think it is our judgment > > " this is good " - " this is bad " > > which creates the situation > > in which we feel that we have to take action > > in order to change this very situation. > > > > So, we try to change something > > but ignore that the attitude of changing > > is the cause of that > > what we fight > > > > It is like trying to wash blood with blood. > > > > When we plan to plant good seeds > > to let them grow to pleasant situations > > How do we know which seeds are good > > which seeds are bad? > > > > We know it through our judgment only. > > > > Planting a good seed > > with good intentions > > may cause all kind of side effects > > which are not good at all > > or may create suffering for others > > > > When I give up all judgment > > I observe that all growing processes > > (in the course of time) > > do happen naturally > > > > This includes writing this posting > > and receiving your answer. > > > > Greetings > > Stefan > > > > Hi Stefan, > > Good to see you, AC, Dan, > and Silver, and the exalted bobby baba > trying to harmmer Jello into a sword. ahhhhhh yes...once again a jewel from the nether parts of the illusion. but...what the hell is 'harmerring'.....perhaps the noble minded or the intoxicated(whichever is more suitable) petie can enlighten us all on this wonderful sounding activity. the baba gives and he takes away all that has been given...destroys what he has given issue to...all this and much much more!...he is a REAL sport! but even the Divine .b bobji baba has his limits in understanding the inanities sometimes arising from what is supposed to be 'brains' of nitwits....here we have a sterling example of same. if we get a good answer petie...some Jello for you today...if not..well no Jello for you today. ..b b.b. (The Jello Nazi) >N.N.(or interesting)B.< (but it's good for a laugh fans!) .... This > is something of a dull knife I wrote for > another list, and that might cut the mustar > here: > > The greed to control our life, > our experiences, our very consciousness > seems stronger in us. After all, some people > kill themselves when life's conditions become. in > their view, intolerable. > > So, IMO is this greed to control which is the mother > of all vasanas, and of course, the will to destroy all > vasanas, is also the operation of this greed to control. > As long as this greed to control is operating there is a > division between what is, and what should be. > > So, attachment is a vasana. If someone breaks my favorite X, > I can become angry, and then feel bad because I'm angry, > and then try > to control the anger, and then realize I'm attached to not being > angry, and further, I'm attached to control my states of mind. > > What happens when this constant controlling posture is seen > as a separation from the now, as an effort to try to change the > now into an ideal future? Is this possible? Can this instant be > changed at will? Or will it change on its own regardless of our > actions? What will happen if all these is clearly seen, without > trying to fight any of it? How will that moment be? Would there > be a me judging, then? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: >I wouldn't call them " right " thoughts just like I wouldn't call >mango seed right and apple seed wrong. I simply ask to observe that >mango tree produces mango fruit and apple produces apple. Similarly >thoughts have their corresponding resultant emotions and actions. You did not call it right or wrong, but you called it positive or negative. Sorry, but I don't see the difference. I was living very close with depressed people and there I have learned that it is not helpful to tell them to change their thinking. The reason for their grief is exactly this: they try, but they cannot change their thinking. For them it is immensely helpful and healing when they feel accepted as they are, without on top to their grief being blamed for the cause of their grief! You go on saying: planting a mango seed leads to a mango tree. Yes, every farmer knows this! But we are not talking about trees. We talk about thoughts. And only because it functions this way with trees it does not mean it functions accordingly with thoughts. It may function your way for a while when you firmly believe that this is the " law of nature " . Like, if you firmly believe you are enlightened, you will feel great for a while until reality comes back in again. But reality is each moment! What does a " moment " mean for you? >>What can one do with one moment, >You can make love to a woman. You surely cannot make love to a woman in one moment. It needs a whole lot of moments. And during this time anything can go wrong. The husband of the woman can suddenly come home. Or you have a heart attack. Or there is an earthquake and the house falls down. Moments over moments, possibilities over possibilities. There is no way to know it beforehand. This is LIFE. It can NOT be controlled. Nobody is able to travel back and forth in time to avoid all that is going to happen. In a nutshell, I feel you do not want to accept the fluctuant nature of thoughts (and accordingly of our very nature). Maybe you don't care, o.k.! Wonderful! Maybe I misunderstand you, sure I do! I care and for me this is not a philosophical discussion at all. It is a very practical one. When I want to get rid of some thoughts I dance the moment, I do not think how to not think or how to think better or whatever. This I meant when I talked about " fresh water " , you see. I hope you also enjoyed this talk a little :-) Greetings Stefan > > It is not my intention to criticize you > > I don't think you are criticizing me. ONTOH… I am surely being very > critical to cruel to what I consider 'fake' 'non duality' which I > see being used quite dishonestly to either win useless arguments or > to " hide " away from the 'apparent' 'difficulties' of real Life! > > > > But I like to show my differing opinion > > and I hope this is o.k. for you. > > It sure is OK with me and even it was not OK with me, it still is > your freedom to do so - it is a public forum, I don't own it and you > are being quite civil, cordial and respectful! > > > > > > Now, those personal things you say about me... > > Yes, in fact, I am dysfunctional in one sense: > > I cannot turn the clock backwards. > > But, can you? > > I sure can > > How difficult it is to turn the clock ?;) Even my 2 years old son > knows how to do it > > But, seriously, I am not talking about turning back the clock! On > the contrary, I said in my message that if you have planted mango > seed [in past] that has grown into mango tree - you can not pick > apples from that tree. > > > > > Like you I take decisions all the time. > > That is good to know. This I know that you know yourself to be > an 'ordinary' person like me and I am not discussing with > some 'fake' 'non dualist' type > > > > > They are taken to my best ability > > and I trust that they are right. > > But I cannot control the results. > > And, I am not suggesting that we " control " them! > > We don't really " control " to make mango seed into mango fruit > bearing tree. We simply plant the seed and with right soil, sun, > water and time nature makes them grow into the tree. We simply > observe, learn and then plant and let nature do what the rest. > > > > > Maybe I could, if I was able > > to turn the clock backwards. > > As I mentioned, I am not suggesting that. > > > In this case I could adjust my decisions in hindsight > > Until they exactly match my intention. > > As we know, just 'intentions' are not enough! Understanding the 'law > of nature' is far more important and crucial! If because of our > unawareness and lack of understanding; we planted mango seed it is > likely to grow into a mango plant and not an apple tree! All we can > then do is to enjoy the apples and use that knowledge and awareness > for future planting! I am not asking to turn apple into a mango tree > [turning back the clock] - but, in the future, if we want to grow > mangoes, we know which seed not to plant! > > > > > > Moreover, I do not feel that my life is " fake non duality " . > > I am not suggesting that! I don't think anybody's life is 'fake' > or 'real' 'no duality'! No matter what we say, we live in 'duality'! > Fake 'non duality' is simply a hiding place that some of us use in > speech [and thoughts] because we are too afraid to venture > into " real " life or because, we want to convince ourselves and > others of our 'special-i-ness' or, because, we got too attached to > the 'comforts' and supreme 'pleasures' of 'not thinking'! > > I have done all of that myself at number of occasions and for many > months and thus I am 'intimately' familiar with this territory! > > > > What does " non-duality " mean to you? > > A Philosophy... > > Used one way, it can provide 'experimental' answers to spiritual > questions like: > > - Who am I? > - Where I came from? > - Where will I go? > - What is my purpose? > - What will happen when I die? > - Who created me? > - What is the universe? > > > Used another way, > it can work like opium that you can use to " hide " from the " real " > life as the 'pleasure' and 'comforts' of 'no thinking' might be > supremely more 'pleasurable' than dealing in " real " life > and " thinking " ! > > > > > Just like " enlightenment " this sounds kind of... > > artificial to me. > > Every word can seem 'artificial' or 'real' depending on your > experience with it! Like pain of child birth or menstruation can > seem 'artificial' to me! > > > > > > I am feeling joy and pain, > > I have preferences and antipathies > > That is Great… > > > like everyone else. > > INDEED > > > Is this not natural? > > I think, it is " natural " ! > > > > > > I just find it remarkable that > > those things are coming and going > > Just like seasons… > > Yet, little more observation can tell you that there is something > that makes seasons change and that there can be something > like 'global warming' that can even change patterns of seasons! > > > > and I cannot fundamentally change them!!! > > Yes and know… > > Please read above. > > > They change along with everything else, > > inevitably!!! > > Please read above. > > > > > I can move only forward (in course of time) > > Or, 'non dually' speaking… > > You do NOT move at all! > > Yet, things [including the body known as Stefan] change! > > > > along with everything. > > All which is to my disposal > > is this moment. > > > > Or, you can read and answer my mail. > > > You have many choices and depending on which one you take - their > outcome might be quite different! > > > > > Can it be caught and controlled? > > Please read above! > > > No! But it can be danced. > > It can be sung and played. > > That sounds quite 'poetic' and… quite 'Meaningless' [in the given > context] > > > > > > AC, just once again, > > and then you can make out of it > > whatever you want: > > I do not think that it is possible > > for the mind to program itself > > to perfection. > > There is no such thing as 'perfection' for any 'living' entity! > > I am not taking about 'perfection'! I am simply talking about > cooling water to make ice and boiling it to make vapor. > > > > > > When I am unhappy with my thoughts > > Being 'unhappy with thoughts' too... is a thought! > > > > I do not use my thoughts to get rid of my thoughts. > > But, you can! > > Like when you watch movie... you forget many other thoughts! > > > > > For me (!) this does not work. > > Or, it does but, you forgot to notice it this time! > > Think about yellow, white, red roses in full bloom near a lake in a > garden full of green grass under sunny blue sky with some white > clouds! > > And, you might notice that thinking that thought has made lose > thoughts of 'elephants'! > > > > I have tried long time. > > And, you forgot that it does work ?;) Or, did it really not work > the way you initially thought it would? > > > > I feel it is like washing blood with blood, > > as Nisargadatta has said it. > > I don't know what Niz had said in this regard. > > I will simply recommend using water and soap and not 'falsely' > assume that if blood can not wash blood; the, it can not be washed > at all! > > > I prefer clean water. > > Sure and that's what I recommend for washing blood. > > Yet, when you need 'blood transfusion', blood might work better than > water! That's why I am not talking about 'right' or 'wrong' but, > simply about observing what does what... then, simply plant 'right' > seed for right plant like water for washing and blood for > transfusion. It doesn't mean one is right and other is wrong. It > simply means one does A and other does B! > > > > > > > > Greetings > > Stefan > > > > […] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > […] > > I was living very close with depressed people and there I have learned > that it is not helpful to tell them to change their thinking. Are you depressed? Do I need to be careful when talking to you? > The > reason for their grief is exactly this: they try, but they cannot > change their thinking. Maybe, because, they are trying it the way that doesn't work ? And, maybe, they are stuck in trying the same way again and again ? Remember, Edison experimented with many, many substances before finding one that he could use as a filament in the light bulb! Maybe, people in general are not that 'scientific' when applying thoughts! [And, BTW... what is 'wrong' with depression???] > For them it is immensely helpful and healing > when they feel accepted as they are, without on top to their grief > being blamed for the cause of their grief! Sure, it sure can do that to many! And, I am sure some of them might get cured by showing them to examine their own thinking! > > You go on saying: planting a mango seed leads to a mango tree. Yes, > every farmer knows this! But we are not talking about trees. We talk > about thoughts. Yes, this I knew > And only because it functions this way with trees it > does not mean it functions accordingly with thoughts. Have heard of cause and effect or in the example, more like 'seed and plant'? That is what I am talking about. > > It may function your way There is no " my " way! There is only 'nature's way' - some I might understand and some may not! When I don't understand, I am proven wrong! Yet, nature follows its " law " every time! > for a while when you firmly believe that this > is the " law of nature " . Until I am proven wrong. In which case, I know that my understanding of the law was incorrect! > Like, if you firmly believe you are > enlightened, 'Enlightenment' is not a matter of 'belief'! > you will feel great for a while until reality comes back > in again. Enlightenment doesn't mean 'feeling great'! Enlightenment doesn't mean end of 'feeling bad'! > > But reality is each moment! > What does a " moment " mean for you? What does it mean to you? I thought you were talking about a fraction of time. > > >>What can one do with one moment, > >You can make love to a woman. > > You surely cannot make love to a woman in one moment. If you can make it in one billion moments, you can surely make one billionth of it in a moment - and, then, you can stay for billion more moments if you want > It needs a whole > lot of moments. Sure… as you and the lady like it > And during this time anything can go wrong. Or, not! > The > husband of the woman can suddenly come home. I am not necessarily talking about making love to someone else wife only > Or you have a heart > attack. Or, more likely you won't (based on stats and probability)! But, what are you trying to prove! I am not saying that you are the Master of the Universe and that you control everything! I am simply saying that if heat water it is likely to boil and if you cool it it is likely to freeze! Same thing with thoughts! And, doing that doen't require you to have super natural powers! > Or there is an earthquake and the house falls down. Moments > over moments, possibilities over possibilities. There is no way to > know it beforehand. This is LIFE. It can NOT be controlled. Nobody is > able to travel back and forth in time to avoid all that is going to > happen. > > In a nutshell, I feel you do not want to accept the fluctuant nature > of thoughts (and accordingly of our very nature). What is that fundamental nature of thoughts, Stefan? > Maybe you don't > care, o.k.! I don't know. Again, what is the fundamental nature of thoughts? > Wonderful! Maybe I misunderstand you, sure I do! I care > and for me this is not a philosophical discussion at all. It is a very > practical one. When I want to get rid of some thoughts Why do you want to get rid of some thought, Stefan? > I dance the > moment, I do not think how to not think or how to think better or > whatever. No, you 'dance the moment' But, why? Why do you want to get rid of thoughts? > This I meant when I talked about " fresh water " , you see. > > I hope you also enjoyed this talk a little :-) I sure did! > > Greetings > Stefan > Greetings, ac [...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: >>In a nutshell, I feel you do not want to accept the fluctuant >>nature of thoughts (and accordingly of our very nature). > >What is that fundamental nature of thoughts, Stefan? I have written: " the *fluctuant* nature of thoughts. " The nature of thoughts is flux. the laws of nature are not ultimately determined by cause and result. Nature behaves sometimes predictable sometimes chaotic It is futile to control the chaotic part. It can be a big relief to accept that part. By accepting the chaotic part I mean: accepting that we cannot control the course of events through our thoughts. As far as the predictable part is concerned: It is equally futile to control it because it perfectly takes care for itself. All this I mean very practical, it is something I live and try to share which I find quite difficult You also wrote: >Enlightenment is not a matter of 'belief' AC, one can " belief " he is enlightened until reality comes by for a check. >Enlightenment doesn't mean 'feeling great'! >Enlightenment doesn't mean end of 'feeling bad'! This is exactly what I say. And therefor I do not understand why you insist so much on choosing between good and bad planting positive thoughts etc... but - no problem - I just share my view: For me deliberately planting thoughts is the same as planting beliefs But false beliefs function only as long until reality comes around the corner for a check I call it reality check. Now, tell me more about enlightenment if you want. Greetings Stefan > > > For them it is immensely helpful and healing > > when they feel accepted as they are, without on top to their grief > > being blamed for the cause of their grief! > > Sure, it sure can do that to many! > > And, I am sure some of them might get cured by showing them to > examine their own thinking! > > > > > You go on saying: planting a mango seed leads to a mango tree. Yes, > > every farmer knows this! But we are not talking about trees. We > talk > > about thoughts. > > Yes, this I knew > > > And only because it functions this way with trees it > > does not mean it functions accordingly with thoughts. > > Have heard of cause and effect or in the example, more like 'seed > and plant'? That is what I am talking about. > > > > > It may function your way > > There is no " my " way! There is only 'nature's way' - some I might > understand and some may not! When I don't understand, I am proven > wrong! Yet, nature follows its " law " every time! > > > > for a while when you firmly believe that this > > is the " law of nature " . > > Until I am proven wrong. In which case, I know that my understanding > of the law was incorrect! > > > > Like, if you firmly believe you are > > enlightened, > > > > > > > But reality is each moment! > > What does a " moment " mean for you? > > What does it mean to you? > > I thought you were talking about a fraction of time. > > > > > >>What can one do with one moment, > > >You can make love to a woman. > > > > You surely cannot make love to a woman in one moment. > > If you can make it in one billion moments, you can surely make one > billionth of it in a moment - and, then, you can stay for billion > more moments if you want > > > > It needs a whole > > lot of moments. > > Sure… as you and the lady like it > > > And during this time anything can go wrong. > > Or, not! > > > The > > husband of the woman can suddenly come home. > > I am not necessarily talking about making love to someone else wife > only > > > > Or you have a heart > > attack. > > Or, more likely you won't (based on stats and probability)! > > But, what are you trying to prove! I am not saying that you are the > Master of the Universe and that you control everything! I am simply > saying that if heat water it is likely to boil and if you cool it it > is likely to freeze! Same thing with thoughts! And, doing that > doen't require you to have super natural powers! > > > > Or there is an earthquake and the house falls down. Moments > > over moments, possibilities over possibilities. There is no way to > > know it beforehand. This is LIFE. It can NOT be controlled. Nobody > is > > able to travel back and forth in time to avoid all that is going to > > happen. > > > > In a nutshell, I feel you do not want to accept the fluctuant > nature > > of thoughts (and accordingly of our very nature). > > What is that fundamental nature of thoughts, Stefan? > > > > Maybe you don't > > care, o.k.! > > I don't know. Again, what is the fundamental nature of thoughts? > > > > Wonderful! Maybe I misunderstand you, sure I do! I care > > and for me this is not a philosophical discussion at all. It is a > very > > practical one. When I want to get rid of some thoughts > > Why do you want to get rid of some thought, Stefan? > > > > I dance the > > moment, I do not think how to not think or how to think better or > > whatever. > > No, you 'dance the moment' > > But, why? Why do you want to get rid of thoughts? > > > > This I meant when I talked about " fresh water " , you see. > > > > I hope you also enjoyed this talk a little :-) > > I sure did! > > > > > Greetings > > Stefan > > > > Greetings, > ac > > [...] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 [...] > > Now, tell me more about enlightenment > if you want. I think you have been on spiritual circle long enough to know many definitions of enlightenment/realization. Following are few definitions that I like: There is no realization event. Realization is nothing to gain anew. What is born will also die. All that is required for realization to happen is to get rid of the thought that I have not realized Self. And, finally: Peace is Realization. > > Greetings > Stefan > > [...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: >I think you have been on spiritual >circle long enough to know many >definitions of enlightenment/realization. >Following are few definitions that I like: AC, was it of any use for your own enlightenment to know about those definitions? Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > >I think you have been on spiritual > >circle long enough to know many > >definitions of enlightenment/realization. > >Following are few definitions that I like: > > AC, > > was it of any use for your own enlightenment > to know about those definitions? > > Stefan > It has same use that the definition of anything else such as making love, eating, drinking or thirst, hunger and satisfaction does! i.e. knowing definition serves in " communication " ! Else, you might be hungry and may not be able to communicate your need to another. You might want to make love, but may not have a 'word' to communicate your itentions! Regards, ac Y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: Stefan: > > AC, > > > > was it of any use for your own enlightenment > > to know about those definitions? > > > > Stefan > > > > It has same use that the definition of anything else > such as making love, eating, drinking or thirst, hunger > and satisfaction does! > > i.e. knowing definition serves in " communication " ! > > Else, you might be hungry and may not be able to > communicate your need to another. You might want > to make love, but may not have a 'word' to communicate > your intentions! Are you saying that you would not have been able to become enlightened if you would have not known those definitions of enlightenment? Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > Stefan: > > > AC, > > > > > > was it of any use for your own enlightenment > > > to know about those definitions? > > > > > > Stefan > > > > > > > It has same use that the definition of anything else > > such as making love, eating, drinking or thirst, hunger > > and satisfaction does! > > > > i.e. knowing definition serves in " communication " ! > > > > Else, you might be hungry and may not be able to > > communicate your need to another. You might want > > to make love, but may not have a 'word' to communicate > > your intentions! > > Are you saying that you would not have been > able to become enlightened if you would have > not known those definitions of enlightenment? > > Stefan How did you manage to comprehend that from the above??? As I said before, " knowing definition serves in " communication " ! " . i.e. without knowing definition you might be hungry in reality, but, may not be able to convey that to others. Same thing goes for enlightenemnt and other things, definition gives you the words that you can use to " communicate " reality to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: >How did you manage to comprehend that >from the above??? AC, I am not comprehending anything from what you write. I am asking a simple question. You gave the following definitions (quote): " There is no realization event. Realization is nothing to gain anew. What is born will also die. All that is required for realization to happen is to get rid of the thought that I have not realized Self. Peace is Realization. " My question is: were those " definitions " useful for you in order to become enlightened? Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > >How did you manage to conclude that > >from the above??? > > AC, I am not concluding > anything from what you write. > I am asking a simple question. > > You gave the following definitions (quote): > > " There is no realization event. > Realization is nothing to gain anew. > What is born will also die. > All that is required for realization > to happen is to get rid of the thought > that I have not realized Self. > Peace is Realization. " > > My question is: were those " definitions " > useful for you in order to become enlightened? Not in " getting " enlightenment but, in 'recognizing' what it is and what it is not. For example, it told me that a " cool experience " it is not, 'seeing void' it is not, 'feeling like not existing' it is not, 'heart feeling strange' it is not, 'Ajna chakra feeling open' it is not, 'seeing light, hearing sound' it is not, 'feeling dead' it is not, 'feeling immersed in love' it is not. It told me that enlightenment is what is eternal while all sort of " spiritual " and " no spiritual " experiences come and go - if they begin, they can also end - if they can happen, they can also unhappen. > > Stefan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: >>My question is: were those " definitions " >>useful for you in order to become enlightened? >Not in " getting " enlightenment >but, in 'recognizing' what it is >and what it is not. Yes, thank you for sharing this. As far as I am concerned I do not see why that " what is " needs definitions in order to be recognized. I feel that any definition narrows it. Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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