Guest guest Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Stefan: > >Neither nor. > >I would try to help them to accept both. > > Arvind: > > > >How can you teach someone to accept > >[or to do anything else] in dream? > >If they " can " do something about it - are they still asleep? > > Dear Arvind, > > Thank you for asking. > > First of all, please re-read my message. > I have not used the word " teach " . My mistake, Stefan. > > I simply have said: > I would try to help my children to accept both, > Sweet dreams and nightmares. > As part of their lives. > > You talk about teaching > I talk about helping > You talk about avoidance > I talk about acceptance In my experience, too much focus on personalities [you/me, Stefan/Arvind] prevents any real discussion from happening. > > The avoidance has to take place when the dream comes > The acceptance happens when the dream is over > So, you can accept a dream > But you cannot avoid it. > It is impossible, because dreams cannot be controlled. > They happen Part of what I am writing is because of my own experience. I found out that dreams are not as mysterious as we might want to believe. They are not much different than the idle, unconscious thoughts that takes place during day. In my experience, dreams are simply the result of brain trying to: - interpret the present environment, - accomplish a task (such as trying to wake up the body) - making my memory by 'repeating' what you has experienced before and which you want to remember for your survival or pleasure. What I do during when I am awake and 'how I sleep' directly affects kind of dreams that I get. For last 6 months, I have hardly had any nightmare whereas, for some time, I used to terrorized by frequent nightmares. Through my observation and analysis, I learned few very valuable things that helped me avoid nightmares and greatly improved the quality of my sleep and dreams. I noticed that when I slept near the edge of the bed; I used to get many frightening nightmares that used to make my body tight and kind of freeze my body in place. - I later reasoned that it was because, my brain had sensed that I was very close to the edge of the bed and thus can fall and potentially hurt myself. Sensing that, my brain was trying to prevent me from falling by my body tight and frozen so that I don't move too much and fall. I stopped sleeping near the edge of the bed and these nightmares too stopped. I noticed that whenever I had to wake up early; (I seldom use alarm clock); I used to get mild nightmares as well as other intense dreams in which I was getting late for something important. Dreaming this way, I would wake up many times during night. - I reasoned that this was the way the brain was trying to wake up and was trying to accomplish the task (of waking me up) that I had asked it to do. I stopped asking my brain to wake me up and I started having sound, uninterrupted sleep. I noticed that during night, many times my breathing used to get quite sallow [and thus body would get insufficient oxygen; brain in this scenario would create very scary nightmares so that I can wake up and can potentially correct my breathing. Noticing that, I started cleaning my nose properly before sleep and I started deep, conscious breathing before falling sleep. This insured deep, relaxing, pleasant sleep. One night, I had a very scary dream of a cobra seating on my chest and making " hissing " sound. In the morning when I woke up, I saw marks of cat paws on my dress. I reasoned that during night probably an astray cat had sat on my body was making sound whenever my face moved. " Cobra sitting on my chest " was my brain's interpretation of that event. After awakening, my thoughts used to frequently cease and breathing used to considerably slow down especially during night. Being very new to this experience and being very attached to my children - I used to think that I was perhaps dying or perhaps, my breathing would stop in my sleep and I would die. And, that used to generate my scary nightmares. Once I stopped thinking this way and once I stopped Interpreting slowness of thoughts and slowness of breathing as 'impending death' - these nightmares stopped occurring. Regards, ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 [...] > In my experience, dreams are simply the result > of brain trying to: > > - interpret the present environment, > > - accomplish a task (such as trying to wake up the body) > > - making my memory by 'repeating' what you have > experienced before and which you want to remember for > your survival or pleasure. > > What I do when I am awake, 'what I think' > just before I sleep and 'how I sleep' directly > affects kind of dreams that I get. [...] > > I noticed that during night, many times my > breathing used to get quite sallow [and thus > body would get insufficient oxygen; brain > in this scenario would create very scary nightmares > so that I can wake up and can potentially correct > my breathing. > > Noticing that, I started cleaning my nose properly > before sleep and I started deep, conscious breathing > before falling sleep. This insured deep, relaxing, > pleasant sleep. > An estimated 5% of American adults, and 3% of children, suffer from sleep apnea. With each apnea episode, sleepers literally stop breathing, sometimes for as long as three minutes, until the body wakes them up for air. In severe cases, people are awakened hundreds of times during the night. Often, they don't remember these sleep interruptions. Doctors suspect that sleep apnea episodes trigger thousands of nighttime deaths, including heart attacks. < http://www.businessweek.com/1997/23/b3530164.htm > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: >In my experience, too much focus on >personalities [you/me, Stefan/Arvind] >prevents any real discussion from happening. Well, this is actually a funny way to avoid the dialog I did not have our peronalities in my mind When I wrote my reply But I also did not expect any " real " discussion (Whatever this means) When you would sit at the death bed of your father Or someone else approaching the end of his life And you see fear in his eyes What will you do: Will you teach him about ways to avoid fear? Or will you just silently hold his hand? And if you are the one on the death bed: What will you prefer? Arvind, you say after your realization The idea that you may die during sleep Generated scary nightmares for you. And that you then have stopped thinking About the possibility of dying during sleep And the nightmares disappeared I understand this and I do not condemn you For your very human tactics. But I find this strange for a realized man! Is it not the bare truth that in fact No one of us can ever be sure if he will survive Till the next morning? In my experience By avoidance of the thought of dying The unpleasant problem of fear will not be solved Maybe dulled for some time, but It will wait double as strong behind the next corner Wherever life will lead you What is reached through avoidance is not realization. I suggest under-standing and acceptance Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 [. . .] > > When you would sit at the death bed of your father > Or someone else approaching the end of his life > And you see fear in his eyes > What will you do: > Will you teach him about ways to avoid fear? > Or will you just silently hold his hand? > And if you are the one on the death bed: > What will you prefer? I haven't thought about it. I have seen my grandpa and grandma dying; I don't think either of them were afraid. Maybe, just little worried about what would happen to kids after they are gone. We had a Hindu religious ceremony in which Bhagvat Gita was recited in which Krishna talks about - what is REAL never dies; and, what is not real never really existed. > > Arvind, you say after your realization > The idea that you may die during sleep > Generated scary nightmares for you. If you want to be particular about the 'words', I said 'awakening' and not 'realization' Awakening to me is an event. Realization is the advent of knowledge, recognition and its understanding. > And that you then have stopped thinking > About the possibility of dying during sleep > And the nightmares disappeared > > I understand this and I do not condemn you > For your very human tactics. > > But I find this strange for a realized man! > Is it not the bare truth that in fact > No one of us can ever be sure if he will survive > Till the next morning? I don't know. I am still trying to find out. > > In my experience > By avoidance of the thought of dying > The unpleasant problem of fear will not be solved > Maybe dulled for some time, but > It will wait double as strong behind the next corner > Wherever life will lead you It is not avoidance, it is acceptance. I saw that fear doesn't go away by avoiding it. Fear goes away by the willingness to accept. Fear goes away when I look forward to the event that I previously didn't want to happen. In this case, fear of death goes away once I say I am fully willing to die if death happens. I look forward to die, if it happens. It goes away when I say, I look forward to whatever happens in sleep. However, avoidance of 'nightmares' is something different. As I explained in my earlier message, nightmares happen because of some reason and thus when that reason is absent; nightmares stop occurring. To understand it, consider this example: - I used to wakeup to pee during night. I stopped drinking water before going to bed and thus stopping having to go pee during night. It is simple cause and effect and nothing else. Similarly, Nightmares are simply mechanics - when the " cause " is not present the " effect " also goes away. Regards, ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: >I stopped drinking water before going to bed and >thus stopping having to go pee during night. It is >simple cause and effect and nothing else. Similarly, >Nightmares are simply mechanics - when the > " cause " is not present the " effect " also goes away. I think you are over-simplifying. There are many things that can lead to nightmares. One of them is repressed fear. You have written in your previous message That the cause for your nightmare was the fear of dying. You have written that by stopping the thoughts about dying The nightmares have disappeared. Now you are saying, it was the acceptance of fear. Obviously you are confusing avoidance with acceptance. Stopping the thoughts about dying is not acceptance. It is avoidance or repression and it will have A temporary effect at the most. When acceptance happens... You will not have to manipulate your thoughts And you will not need to fight your nightmares Because they are accepted as part of your life And they will go when it is due... I am also surprised to hear, That you are not sure about the unpredictability Of your own physical death. Are you serious? Are you considering that you can control your death? Or predict beforehand when it will happen? Could you please elaborate what you mean? Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 [...] > > You have written in your previous message > That the cause for your nightmare was the fear of dying. > You have written that by stopping the thoughts about dying > The nightmares have disappeared. > > Now you are saying, it was the acceptance of fear. I am saying that by being open to death; fear of death goes away on its own. You don't have to accept or avoid it. [...] > > I am also surprised to hear, > That you are not sure about the unpredictability > Of your own physical death. Yes, I am not. I have read and heard thousand times [or more] that the death is totally unpredictable. Now, I don't believe it. Not believing it, doesn't mean that I can pesronally predict or control it. > Are you serious? We already predict death to certain extent. The 'term life insurance' companies try to predict death on the basis of age, family history, lifestyle, line of work and on current physical/medical condition of the person they are insuring. They make profits by being right more than 99% of the times. That kind of " accuracy " in most industries would be considered quite good. > Are you considering that you can control your death? > Or predict beforehand when it will happen? I am simply saying that death in almsot all cases happens because of some cause such as heart failure which itself because of some other cause. So, death is not really as 'random' as we were once taught it is. With current advancements in medical science, we are already able to predict death in many cases with great accuracy - with further progress, we can know more about the death and the body and thus be more accurate. > > Could you please elaborate what you mean? I see death as something that happens because of a reason and thus, is not a 'random' event. I don't think that " God " is playing a roullete with us. Regards, ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Hey Arvind, you can predict whatever you want and conjure the laws of cause and effect to whatever extend you wish there is no way to escape death All the best Stefan P.S. " stopping the thoughts about dying " does not really sound like openness to me... but what do I know, I am just a simple man Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > [...] > > > > > You have written in your previous message > > That the cause for your nightmare was the fear of dying. > > You have written that by stopping the thoughts about dying > > The nightmares have disappeared. > > > > Now you are saying, it was the acceptance of fear. > > > I am saying that by being open to death; > fear of death goes away on its own. > You don't have to accept or avoid it. > > > [...] > > > > > I am also surprised to hear, > > That you are not sure about the unpredictability > > Of your own physical death. > > Yes, I am not. > > I have read and heard thousand times [or more] > that the death is totally unpredictable. Now, > I don't believe it. > > Not believing it, doesn't mean that I can pesronally > predict or control it. > > > > Are you serious? > > We already predict death to certain extent. The 'term > life insurance' companies try to predict death on the > basis of age, family history, lifestyle, line of work > and on current physical/medical condition of the person > they are insuring. They make profits by being right more > than 99% of the times. That kind of " accuracy " in most > industries would be considered quite good. > > > > > Are you considering that you can control your death? > > Or predict beforehand when it will happen? > > > I am simply saying that death in almsot all cases > happens because of some cause such as heart failure > which itself because of some other cause. So, death > is not really as 'random' as we were once taught > it is. With current advancements in medical science, > we are already able to predict death in many cases > with great accuracy - with further progress, we can > know more about the death and the body and thus be > more accurate. > > > > > > Could you please elaborate what you mean? > > I see death as something that happens because > of a reason and thus, is not a 'random' event. > I don't think that " God " is playing a roullete > with us. > > > Regards, > ac > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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