Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 Gurdjieff taught Thomas Hartman, a professional musician, to play a certain chord sequence-- which Gurd. had learned someplace in the central asian highlands--that when heard by (rare) sound-loving types would bring them to some kind of samadhi state.Hartman used it this way at least once that he describes.He did not use it much because it seemed rather useless to him from a spiritual point of view. I suppose he felt it was like giving someone LSD.But I can't help thinking that if someone could find such a sequence--maybe there is one for each of us, each one subtly different like the dna--it would be like a switch he could throw that would open the gates to the realm of Clear Seeing.Everyone has certain pieces of music that already do this for them.I remember listening to the middle movement of an oboe concerto by JS Bach one time many years ago.At the culminating point I could feel a clot of energy rush up my spine and into my head and up to the crown.I did almost lose consciousness. Sad to say this was not a repeatable phenom. And also--whether there was a lot of clear seeing going on at that time I cannot swear to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 >Gurdjieff taught Thomas Hartman Thanks for sharing that. Shame we can't get to listen to that chord. Just out of curiosity I would love to hear it. >Everyone has certain pieces of music that already do this for >them. There are certainly pieces of music that have various effects on me. I already mentioned Bindu, which has an effect of clearing my mind and kind of waking me me to positive, everyday being. You mentioned JS Bach. Definitely my favourite classical musician. Impossible to single out any one tune above others, but I just wondered if you'd ever listened to Glenn Gould's 1981 piano interpretation of the Goldberg variations? The very first movement, the Aria, is amazing. Also Variation no. 16 sends is very stirring. And all the time you can hear his ghostly humming - often on the very edge of audibility. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " <jason.dedonno wrote: > > >Gurdjieff taught Thomas Hartman > > Thanks for sharing that. Shame we can't get to listen to that chord. > Just out of curiosity I would love to hear it. > > >Everyone has certain pieces of music that already do this for > >them. > > There are certainly pieces of music that have various effects on me. I > already mentioned Bindu, which has an effect of clearing my mind and > kind of waking me me to positive, everyday being. > > You mentioned JS Bach. Definitely my favourite classical musician. > Impossible to single out any one tune above others, but I just > wondered if you'd ever listened to Glenn Gould's 1981 piano > interpretation of the Goldberg variations? The very first movement, > the Aria, is amazing. Also Variation no. 16 sends is very stirring. > And all the time you can hear his ghostly humming - often on the very > edge of audibility. > > Jason > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; however depending on my 'moods', different music resonates with me. However, this is does me in every time: From Rachmaninov Isle of the Dead hope you enjoy it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; Lol! I can listen to bit of Dolly Parton. > However, this is does me in every time: > > Wow! What an experience! That was pure art. What film is that? Thanks for sharing it! I've just thought of another classical piece that gets me going, it's Beethoven's 7th Symphony. I think it borders on the macabre though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs5pH4GKYkI I think I got hooked when it first heard in the final scene of Zardoz many years ago. Well, not that many: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " <jason.dedonno wrote: > > > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; > > Lol! I can listen to bit of Dolly Parton. > > > However, this is does me in every time: > > > > > > Wow! What an experience! That was pure art. What film is that? > Thanks for sharing it! > > I've just thought of another classical piece that gets me going, > it's Beethoven's 7th Symphony. I think it borders on the macabre > though. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs5pH4GKYkI > > I think I got hooked when it first heard in the final scene of > Zardoz many years ago. Well, not that many: > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umzmETQ2geU & mode=related & search= From an incredible movie: The Double Life Of Veronique, probably my life story;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " > <jason.dedonno@> wrote: > > > > > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; > > > > Lol! I can listen to bit of Dolly Parton. > > > > > However, this is does me in every time: > > > > > > > > > > Wow! What an experience! That was pure art. What film is that? > > Thanks for sharing it! > > > > I've just thought of another classical piece that gets me going, > > it's Beethoven's 7th Symphony. I think it borders on the macabre > > though. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs5pH4GKYkI > > > > I think I got hooked when it first heard in the final scene of > > Zardoz many years ago. Well, not that many: > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umzmETQ2geU & mode=related & search= > > From an incredible movie: The Double Life Of Veronique, > probably my life story;-) > Info on film " The Mirror " Andrei Tarkovsky Andrei Tarkovsky http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/02/tarkovsky.htm http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072443/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " > <jason.dedonno@> wrote: > > > > >Gurdjieff taught Thomas Hartman > > > > Thanks for sharing that. Shame we can't get to listen to that chord. > > Just out of curiosity I would love to hear it. > > > > >Everyone has certain pieces of music that already do this for > > >them. > > > > There are certainly pieces of music that have various effects on me. I > > already mentioned Bindu, which has an effect of clearing my mind and > > kind of waking me me to positive, everyday being. > > > > You mentioned JS Bach. Definitely my favourite classical musician. > > Impossible to single out any one tune above others, but I just > > wondered if you'd ever listened to Glenn Gould's 1981 piano > > interpretation of the Goldberg variations? The very first movement, > > the Aria, is amazing. Also Variation no. 16 sends is very stirring. > > And all the time you can hear his ghostly humming - often on the very > > edge of audibility. > > > > Jason > > > > > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; however depending on > my 'moods', different music resonates with me. > > > However, this is does me in every time: > > > > From Rachmaninov Isle of the Dead > > hope you enjoy it too. > Thanks for the url. Yes, it is good. Of Rachmaninof I like the piano concertos. There is a passage--maybe in the 2nd movement of the 2nd concerto that has a Gurdjieff effect on me. Tchaikovski is another composer whose specialty or one of them was Gurdjieff effects.You can usually tell when you first hear a piece of music whether there is something in it that might develop into this phenom--you want to hear it again. After hearing it a number of times the effect, in greater or lesser strength, becomes apparent.It seems to last for a certain number of repetitions and then diminishes. Then you have to stay away for a while to give the effect time to regenerate.Sometimes it comes back strong as ever and sometimes not very strong and sometimes it seems to have gone away pretty much.I suppose for some people the Gurdjieff effect does not work through music but through some other art primarily--painting, photography and even cooking or gardening. Strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " <jason.dedonno wrote: > > >Gurdjieff taught Thomas Hartman > > Thanks for sharing that. Shame we can't get to listen to that chord. > Just out of curiosity I would love to hear it. > > >Everyone has certain pieces of music that already do this for > >them. > > There are certainly pieces of music that have various effects on me. I > already mentioned Bindu, which has an effect of clearing my mind and > kind of waking me me to positive, everyday being. > > You mentioned JS Bach. Definitely my favourite classical musician. > Impossible to single out any one tune above others, but I just > wondered if you'd ever listened to Glenn Gould's 1981 piano > interpretation of the Goldberg variations? The very first movement, > the Aria, is amazing. Also Variation no. 16 sends is very stirring. > And all the time you can hear his ghostly humming - often on the very > edge of audibility. > > Jason > I read about the Hartman or Hartmann or maybe even Von or de Hartmann episode in a biography of Gurdjieff. The actual music was not described.It was something that was specific to a certian type of mind/body. Gurdjieff thought there were 26 types. Some are very common some very rare.Some countries ony have 4 or 5 types and some have 20 or more--probably the USA is one of the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " > > <jason.dedonno@> wrote: > > > > > > > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; > > > > > > Lol! I can listen to bit of Dolly Parton. > > > > > > > However, this is does me in every time: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow! What an experience! That was pure art. What film is that? > > > Thanks for sharing it! > > > > > > I've just thought of another classical piece that gets me going, > > > it's Beethoven's 7th Symphony. I think it borders on the macabre > > > though. > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs5pH4GKYkI > > > > > > I think I got hooked when it first heard in the final scene of > > > Zardoz many years ago. Well, not that many: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umzmETQ2geU & mode=related & search= > > > > From an incredible movie: The Double Life Of Veronique, > > probably my life story;-) > > > > > Info on film " The Mirror " Andrei Tarkovsky > > > > Andrei Tarkovsky > > http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/02/tarkovsky.htm > > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072443/ >I thought the movie was The Sacrifice --sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " > > <jason.dedonno@> wrote: > > > > > > >Gurdjieff taught Thomas Hartman > > > > > > Thanks for sharing that. Shame we can't get to listen to that > chord. > > > Just out of curiosity I would love to hear it. > > > > > > >Everyone has certain pieces of music that already do this for > > > >them. > > > > > > There are certainly pieces of music that have various effects on > me. I > > > already mentioned Bindu, which has an effect of clearing my mind > and > > > kind of waking me me to positive, everyday being. > > > > > > You mentioned JS Bach. Definitely my favourite classical > musician. > > > Impossible to single out any one tune above others, but I just > > > wondered if you'd ever listened to Glenn Gould's 1981 piano > > > interpretation of the Goldberg variations? The very first > movement, > > > the Aria, is amazing. Also Variation no. 16 sends is very > stirring. > > > And all the time you can hear his ghostly humming - often on the > very > > > edge of audibility. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; however depending > on > > my 'moods', different music resonates with me. > > > > > > However, this is does me in every time: > > > > > > > > From Rachmaninov Isle of the Dead > > > > hope you enjoy it too. > > > Thanks for the url. Yes, it is good. Of Rachmaninof I like the piano > concertos. There is a passage--maybe in the 2nd movement of the 2nd > concerto that has a Gurdjieff effect on me. Tchaikovski is another > composer whose specialty or one of them was Gurdjieff effects.You > can usually tell when you first hear a piece of music whether there > is something in it that might develop into this phenom--you want to > hear it again. After hearing it a number of times the effect, in > greater or lesser strength, becomes apparent.It seems to last for a > certain number of repetitions and then diminishes. Then you have to > stay away for a while to give the effect time to > regenerate.Sometimes it comes back strong as ever and sometimes not > very strong and sometimes it seems to have gone away pretty much.I > suppose for some people the Gurdjieff effect does not work through > music but through some other art primarily--painting, photography > and even cooking or gardening. Strange. > well... that would be much like sex--one just can't live with the great O, (cosmic or otherwise) 24/7 in the real world, that is, for more than a few months at a time;-) Oops, did I say that out loud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " > > > <jason.dedonno@> wrote: > > > > > > > > >Gurdjieff taught Thomas Hartman > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing that. Shame we can't get to listen to that > > chord. > > > > Just out of curiosity I would love to hear it. > > > > > > > > >Everyone has certain pieces of music that already do this for > > > > >them. > > > > > > > > There are certainly pieces of music that have various effects on > > me. I > > > > already mentioned Bindu, which has an effect of clearing my mind > > and > > > > kind of waking me me to positive, everyday being. > > > > > > > > You mentioned JS Bach. Definitely my favourite classical > > musician. > > > > Impossible to single out any one tune above others, but I just > > > > wondered if you'd ever listened to Glenn Gould's 1981 piano > > > > interpretation of the Goldberg variations? The very first > > movement, > > > > the Aria, is amazing. Also Variation no. 16 sends is very > > stirring. > > > > And all the time you can hear his ghostly humming - often on the > > very > > > > edge of audibility. > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; however depending > > on > > > my 'moods', different music resonates with me. > > > > > > > > > However, this is does me in every time: > > > > > > > > > > > > From Rachmaninov Isle of the Dead > > > > > > hope you enjoy it too. > > > > > Thanks for the url. Yes, it is good. Of Rachmaninof I like the piano > > concertos. There is a passage--maybe in the 2nd movement of the 2nd > > concerto that has a Gurdjieff effect on me. Tchaikovski is another > > composer whose specialty or one of them was Gurdjieff effects.You > > can usually tell when you first hear a piece of music whether there > > is something in it that might develop into this phenom--you want to > > hear it again. After hearing it a number of times the effect, in > > greater or lesser strength, becomes apparent.It seems to last for a > > certain number of repetitions and then diminishes. Then you have to > > stay away for a while to give the effect time to > > regenerate.Sometimes it comes back strong as ever and sometimes not > > very strong and sometimes it seems to have gone away pretty much.I > > suppose for some people the Gurdjieff effect does not work through > > music but through some other art primarily--painting, photography > > and even cooking or gardening. Strange. > > > > > well... that would be much like sex--one just can't live with the > great O, (cosmic or otherwise) 24/7 in the real world, that is, for > more than a few months at a time;-) Oops, did I say that out loud? > It seems to me sex is a kind of talent, like music etc. Lots of people barely feel the culminations.It is just not their thing.Their climaxes happen in their taste buds or a hundred other ways.People that have a talent for sexuality--they are not necessarily beautiful or at all talented in any other way--have a kind of magnetism you can feel right away.They get away with all kinds of things--marry millionaires, become heirs--and people say: How did he ever end up with the likes of her? or vice versa. Some people magnetize thruough the eyes, like Vivekananda and that is a different kind of feeling altogether.Some through the heart, like Ramakrishna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 I know I am late, but in relation to the subject I would like to mention a few things. Concerning " Gurdieff-Type " of music I would think it makes sense to listen to his own music: http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Hymns-Keith-Jarrett/dp/B00000DTER Moreover I would suggest to study traditional Persian and Eastern Mediterranean music and then Armenian and Central Asiatic music in which those ancient traditions have been preserved, according to Gurdieffs own statements. Here is an article about the Sarmoung Brotherhood: http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/sarman.html Read (and listen) how Arnold Keyserling dedicated his whole life to the search of the " lost chord " . http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/lostchrd.html BTW, one should not leave Gurdjieffs Sacred Dances to be unmentioned when talking about his musical work. And last (as we are on Nisargadattas list!) I would like to point everybody to the bhajana tradition in which Nisargadatta has participated himself. http://www.wayofthebird.com/Bhajans.htm Have a good day Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " > > > > <jason.dedonno@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Gurdjieff taught Thomas Hartman > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing that. Shame we can't get to listen to > that > > > chord. > > > > > Just out of curiosity I would love to hear it. > > > > > > > > > > >Everyone has certain pieces of music that already do this > for > > > > > >them. > > > > > > > > > > There are certainly pieces of music that have various > effects on > > > me. I > > > > > already mentioned Bindu, which has an effect of clearing my > mind > > > and > > > > > kind of waking me me to positive, everyday being. > > > > > > > > > > You mentioned JS Bach. Definitely my favourite classical > > > musician. > > > > > Impossible to single out any one tune above others, but I > just > > > > > wondered if you'd ever listened to Glenn Gould's 1981 piano > > > > > interpretation of the Goldberg variations? The very first > > > movement, > > > > > the Aria, is amazing. Also Variation no. 16 sends is very > > > stirring. > > > > > And all the time you can hear his ghostly humming - often on > the > > > very > > > > > edge of audibility. > > > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; however > depending > > > on > > > > my 'moods', different music resonates with me. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, this is does me in every time: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Rachmaninov Isle of the Dead > > > > > > > > hope you enjoy it too. > > > > > > > Thanks for the url. Yes, it is good. Of Rachmaninof I like the > piano > > > concertos. There is a passage--maybe in the 2nd movement of the > 2nd > > > concerto that has a Gurdjieff effect on me. Tchaikovski is > another > > > composer whose specialty or one of them was Gurdjieff > effects.You > > > can usually tell when you first hear a piece of music whether > there > > > is something in it that might develop into this phenom--you want > to > > > hear it again. After hearing it a number of times the effect, in > > > greater or lesser strength, becomes apparent.It seems to last > for a > > > certain number of repetitions and then diminishes. Then you have > to > > > stay away for a while to give the effect time to > > > regenerate.Sometimes it comes back strong as ever and sometimes > not > > > very strong and sometimes it seems to have gone away pretty > much.I > > > suppose for some people the Gurdjieff effect does not work > through > > > music but through some other art primarily--painting, > photography > > > and even cooking or gardening. Strange. > > > > > > > > > well... that would be much like sex--one just can't live with the > > great O, (cosmic or otherwise) 24/7 in the real world, that is, for > > more than a few months at a time;-) Oops, did I say that out loud? > > > It seems to me sex is a kind of talent, like music etc. Lots of > people barely feel the culminations.It is just not their thing.Their > climaxes happen in their taste buds or a hundred other ways.People > that have a talent for sexuality--they are not necessarily beautiful > or at all talented in any other way--have a kind of magnetism you > can feel right away.They get away with all kinds of things--marry > millionaires, become heirs--and people say: How did he ever end up > with the likes of her? or vice versa. Some people magnetize thruough > the eyes, like Vivekananda and that is a different kind of feeling > altogether.Some through the heart, like Ramakrishna. > In this case I was not referring to sex, I was referring to cosmic union. I do, however, grok what you wrote above; perhaps the people you mention above are in various states of cosmic union, either knowingly or unknowingly. ;-0 There is a charisma and presence. N'est-ce pas? anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " jason_de_donno " > > > > > <jason.dedonno@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Gurdjieff taught Thomas Hartman > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing that. Shame we can't get to listen to > > that > > > > chord. > > > > > > Just out of curiosity I would love to hear it. > > > > > > > > > > > > >Everyone has certain pieces of music that already do this > > for > > > > > > >them. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are certainly pieces of music that have various > > effects on > > > > me. I > > > > > > already mentioned Bindu, which has an effect of clearing my > > mind > > > > and > > > > > > kind of waking me me to positive, everyday being. > > > > > > > > > > > > You mentioned JS Bach. Definitely my favourite classical > > > > musician. > > > > > > Impossible to single out any one tune above others, but I > > just > > > > > > wondered if you'd ever listened to Glenn Gould's 1981 piano > > > > > > interpretation of the Goldberg variations? The very first > > > > movement, > > > > > > the Aria, is amazing. Also Variation no. 16 sends is very > > > > stirring. > > > > > > And all the time you can hear his ghostly humming - often on > > the > > > > very > > > > > > edge of audibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love all music, even learned to enjoy country; however > > depending > > > > on > > > > > my 'moods', different music resonates with me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, this is does me in every time: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Rachmaninov Isle of the Dead > > > > > > > > > > hope you enjoy it too. > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the url. Yes, it is good. Of Rachmaninof I like the > > piano > > > > concertos. There is a passage--maybe in the 2nd movement of the > > 2nd > > > > concerto that has a Gurdjieff effect on me. Tchaikovski is > > another > > > > composer whose specialty or one of them was Gurdjieff > > effects.You > > > > can usually tell when you first hear a piece of music whether > > there > > > > is something in it that might develop into this phenom--you want > > to > > > > hear it again. After hearing it a number of times the effect, in > > > > greater or lesser strength, becomes apparent.It seems to last > > for a > > > > certain number of repetitions and then diminishes. Then you have > > to > > > > stay away for a while to give the effect time to > > > > regenerate.Sometimes it comes back strong as ever and sometimes > > not > > > > very strong and sometimes it seems to have gone away pretty > > much.I > > > > suppose for some people the Gurdjieff effect does not work > > through > > > > music but through some other art primarily--painting, > > photography > > > > and even cooking or gardening. Strange. > > > > > > > > > > > > > well... that would be much like sex--one just can't live with the > > > great O, (cosmic or otherwise) 24/7 in the real world, that is, for > > > more than a few months at a time;-) Oops, did I say that out loud? > > > > > It seems to me sex is a kind of talent, like music etc. Lots of > > people barely feel the culminations.It is just not their thing.Their > > climaxes happen in their taste buds or a hundred other ways.People > > that have a talent for sexuality--they are not necessarily beautiful > > or at all talented in any other way--have a kind of magnetism you > > can feel right away.They get away with all kinds of things-- marry > > millionaires, become heirs--and people say: How did he ever end up > > with the likes of her? or vice versa. Some people magnetize thruough > > the eyes, like Vivekananda and that is a different kind of feeling > > altogether.Some through the heart, like Ramakrishna. > > > > In this case I was not referring to sex, I was referring to cosmic > union. > > I do, however, grok what you wrote above; perhaps the people you > mention above are in various states of cosmic union, either knowingly > or unknowingly. ;-0 > > There is a charisma and presence. N'est-ce pas? > > anna > Cosmic union? Nah, I was thinking of folks like Catherine the Great. They are people who have talent for arousing and bringing to culmination. They understand this--like musicians understand that they should be fooling with guitar or cello or whatever.It is their work.They make their way by it. So do sexually talented people. Among these are some who are spiritually oriented and try to use their talents for mystical purposes--just like some musicians and composers--skriabin--do the same in a musical way.But most of them are just banging the drum and wailing for all their worth.haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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