Guest guest Posted May 27, 2007 Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 It is said that without awareness, nothing is.I was thinking of this and dialoging with myself thusly: A: If I am not aware of my heartbeat, does that mean that my heart has stopped beating? B: Number one: YOu have never been aware of " your heart beating " . You have been aware of a pounding sensation at times. " Your heart beating " is a piece of imagination. Number two: All you know about that pounding sensation is that when it is there it is there and when it is not, it IS not. So the above statement re awareness seems to be borne out. A:So you are saying that anything that we are not aware of at any given moment does not exist? B:Yes A:I am in a room.I am not aware of my car parked in the street.So it doesn't exist? B:If you happen to think of it--have an image of it parked someplace- -then it exists in an imaginary form, otherwise not. A: So if awareness is a beam of light from a flashlight and the world is a completely dark room then the only things that exist are the things that narrow beam lights up? B:Yes, except the completely dark room is imaginary and the things in the light beam are being projected from the beam itself and are part of it. A:Snuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen wrote: > > It is said that without awareness, nothing is.I was thinking of this > and dialoging with myself thusly: > A: If I am not aware of my heartbeat, does that mean that my heart > has stopped beating? > B: Number one: YOu have never been aware of " your heart beating " . > You have been aware of a pounding sensation at times. " Your heart > beating " is a piece of imagination. Number two: All you know about > that pounding sensation is that when it is there it is there and > when it is not, it IS not. So the above statement re awareness seems > to be borne out. > A:So you are saying that anything that we are not aware of at any > given moment does not exist? > B:Yes > A:I am in a room.I am not aware of my car parked in the street.So it > doesn't exist? > B:If you happen to think of it--have an image of it parked someplace- > -then it exists in an imaginary form, otherwise not. > A: So if awareness is a beam of light from a flashlight and the > world is a completely dark room then the only things that exist are > the things that narrow beam lights up? > B:Yes, except the completely dark room is imaginary and the things > in the light beam are being projected from the beam itself and are > part of it. > A:Snuff! > Awareness is unrelated to " existence " . Existence is temporal, awareness is not. Hence the notion, " Without awareness nothing is, " which attempts to link awareness with existence, is a faulty notion. Note that awareness per se is quite distinct from " awareness *of* X " . The moment there is a label or description it is no longer truly awareness. " Awareness of " really means something like " noticing " or " attention to " . True awareness can never be reduced to anything specific. In the end there is realization that there is nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in nature. This is because in the end there is just Now, alive and vital, and in which there is no duration. Effectively, Now = Awareness. Finally, note that in the Living Now, or Awareness, there are no objects. There are no distinctions, there are no forms. There is just Aliveness = Now = Awareness. Does that mean that immersion in the Living Now precludes things like driving a car, because a car is an object, a stop sign is an object, etc.? No, not at all. Everything flows as if in automatic pilot. A check can be written, for example, but all the while the emptiness of the check, the emptiness, of the pen (even the emptiness of the account!, the emptiness of all things pervades all behavior, which behavior is empty as well. Every thing happens automatically. There is no need to " believe in " objects for functioning to transpire. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen@> wrote: > > > > It is said that without awareness, nothing is.I was thinking of > this > > and dialoging with myself thusly: > > A: If I am not aware of my heartbeat, does that mean that my heart > > has stopped beating? > > B: Number one: YOu have never been aware of " your heart beating " . > > You have been aware of a pounding sensation at times. " Your heart > > beating " is a piece of imagination. Number two: All you know about > > that pounding sensation is that when it is there it is there and > > when it is not, it IS not. So the above statement re awareness > seems > > to be borne out. > > A:So you are saying that anything that we are not aware of at any > > given moment does not exist? > > B:Yes > > A:I am in a room.I am not aware of my car parked in the street.So > it > > doesn't exist? > > B:If you happen to think of it--have an image of it parked > someplace- > > -then it exists in an imaginary form, otherwise not. > > A: So if awareness is a beam of light from a flashlight and the > > world is a completely dark room then the only things that exist are > > the things that narrow beam lights up? > > B:Yes, except the completely dark room is imaginary and the things > > in the light beam are being projected from the beam itself and are > > part of it. > > A:Snuff! > > > > Awareness is unrelated to " existence " . > > Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > Hence the notion, " Without awareness nothing is, " > which attempts to link awareness with existence, > is a faulty notion. > > Note that awareness per se is quite distinct from > " awareness *of* X " . The moment there is a label > or description it is no longer truly awareness. > " Awareness of " really means something like " noticing " > or " attention to " . True awareness can never be > reduced to anything specific. > > In the end there is realization that there is > nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal > appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in > nature. > > This is because in the end there is just Now, > alive and vital, and in which there is no > duration. Effectively, Now = Awareness. > > Finally, note that in the Living Now, or Awareness, > there are no objects. There are no distinctions, > there are no forms. There is just Aliveness = > Now = Awareness. > > Does that mean that immersion in the Living Now > precludes things like driving a car, because a > car is an object, a stop sign is an object, etc.? > No, not at all. Everything flows as if in automatic > pilot. A check can be written, for example, but all > the while the emptiness of the check, the emptiness, > of the pen (even the emptiness of the account!, > the emptiness of all things pervades all behavior, > which behavior is empty as well. Every thing happens > automatically. There is no need to " believe in " > objects for functioning to transpire. > > > Bill that's sweet. scented with banality. far from empty awareness. Hence!... Note!.. Awareness of 'X'... per se... thusly... and all those notions of nothing. " In the end there is realization that there is nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in nature. " ah asooooooo! 'who' the hell remains as 'realizer' at the 'end'? 'who' ever was there at any 'beginning'? 'who' is there 'now', so precious, [gag]. thou art lost! ..b b.b. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen@> wrote: > > > > It is said that without awareness, nothing is.I was thinking of > this > > and dialoging with myself thusly: > > A: If I am not aware of my heartbeat, does that mean that my heart > > has stopped beating? > > B: Number one: YOu have never been aware of " your heart beating " . > > You have been aware of a pounding sensation at times. " Your heart > > beating " is a piece of imagination. Number two: All you know about > > that pounding sensation is that when it is there it is there and > > when it is not, it IS not. So the above statement re awareness > seems > > to be borne out. > > A:So you are saying that anything that we are not aware of at any > > given moment does not exist? > > B:Yes > > A:I am in a room.I am not aware of my car parked in the street.So > it > > doesn't exist? > > B:If you happen to think of it--have an image of it parked > someplace- > > -then it exists in an imaginary form, otherwise not. > > A: So if awareness is a beam of light from a flashlight and the > > world is a completely dark room then the only things that exist are > > the things that narrow beam lights up? > > B:Yes, except the completely dark room is imaginary and the things > > in the light beam are being projected from the beam itself and are > > part of it. > > A:Snuff! > > > > Awareness is unrelated to " existence " . > > Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > Hence the notion, " Without awareness nothing is, " > which attempts to link awareness with existence, > is a faulty notion. > > Note that awareness per se is quite distinct from > " awareness *of* X " . The moment there is a label > or description it is no longer truly awareness. > " Awareness of " really means something like " noticing " > or " attention to " . True awareness can never be > reduced to anything specific. > > In the end there is realization that there is > nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal > appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in > nature. > > This is because in the end there is just Now, > alive and vital, and in which there is no > duration. Effectively, Now = Awareness. > > Finally, note that in the Living Now, or Awareness, > there are no objects. There are no distinctions, > there are no forms. There is just Aliveness = > Now = Awareness. > > Does that mean that immersion in the Living Now > precludes things like driving a car, because a > car is an object, a stop sign is an object, etc.? > No, not at all. Everything flows as if in automatic > pilot. A check can be written, for example, but all > the while the emptiness of the check, the emptiness, > of the pen (even the emptiness of the account!, > the emptiness of all things pervades all behavior, > which behavior is empty as well. Every thing happens > automatically. There is no need to " believe in " > objects for functioning to transpire. > > > Bill >You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of being.If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must be composed of Aliveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 <snp> > > Awareness is unrelated to " existence " . > > > > Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > > > Hence the notion, " Without awareness nothing is, " > > which attempts to link awareness with existence, > > is a faulty notion. > > > > Note that awareness per se is quite distinct from > > " awareness *of* X " . The moment there is a label > > or description it is no longer truly awareness. > > " Awareness of " really means something like " noticing " > > or " attention to " . True awareness can never be > > reduced to anything specific. > > > > In the end there is realization that there is > > nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal > > appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in > > nature. > > > > This is because in the end there is just Now, > > alive and vital, and in which there is no > > duration. Effectively, Now = Awareness. > > > > Finally, note that in the Living Now, or Awareness, > > there are no objects. There are no distinctions, > > there are no forms. There is just Aliveness = > > Now = Awareness. > > > > Does that mean that immersion in the Living Now > > precludes things like driving a car, because a > > car is an object, a stop sign is an object, etc.? > > No, not at all. Everything flows as if in automatic > > pilot. A check can be written, for example, but all > > the while the emptiness of the check, the emptiness, > > of the pen (even the emptiness of the account!, > > the emptiness of all things pervades all behavior, > > which behavior is empty as well. Every thing happens > > automatically. There is no need to " believe in " > > objects for functioning to transpire. > > > > > > Bill > >You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? > For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be > somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of > being.If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must > be composed of Aliveness. > What I am talking about will seem baffling to many. In the Living Now there is not even experience as such. There is no " I am experiencing X " . There is no " I am <anything> " . If you rub your eyes and close them then you see a bunch of " sparklies " . It is moving and changing so much there is no specific pattern. If you really look at a rock, not in a focused way, but in a contemplative way, just gazing very openly, you will perhaps notice that the visual image of the rock is actually not fixed. There is movement in the visual field, the " rock " is constantly being repainted, there is nothing static about it at all. Same for anything perceived, and also for any " internal " content. My point with that is that everything is always in movement within the field of perception, and that also includes internal sensations, such as what we call thoughts, ideas, forms, etc. Have you ever tried to see the hard edges of a thought? Have you ever tried to actually observe a thought as a distinct entity? You can't actually do that. Even if you say, " I keep having the same thought over and over, " that is really just an expression. Are they actually the very same thought, or very similar thoughts? If you really pay attention to what passes through consciousness you will discover that the closer you pay attention, the more vague and fuzzy any mental content becomes. And that includes ideas, patterns, forms, etc. We might fancy that behavior " works " (e.g. the gas tank is sucessfully refilled) because " we " are directing everything. But, I am saying, that is an illusion. I am saying that it is possible for all the functions of living, of survival, to occur while attention is strictly on each new, fresh instant, with no " hanging onto " any forms or patterns. Behavior " works " not because of " our " direction, but because behavior is programmed in. Even any sense of oneself directing the behavior is due to neural programming! And *that* is what in essence is illusion. There is a show going on, brought to you by the brain, starring a crafted " you " image/idea, but it is not that " you " that does anything, it is all the product of the brain. So just sit back and observe. Let go of imagining that " you " are doing anything and start noticing how whatever is " done " happens of its own. Like when you respond to someone's " Hello! " But more importantly, notice how each instant the sensations of experience are being *repainted*. There is nothing fixed in it. There is a re-Fresh every instant. Forget continuity. Forget trying to " follow " where anything is going. Always take the new re-Fresh as What Is. That is the ultimage Letting Go. Taste the immediacy and implacability of change. You will come, in the end, to never settle for less. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > <snp> > > > Awareness is unrelated to " existence " . > > > > > > Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > > > > > Hence the notion, " Without awareness nothing is, " > > > which attempts to link awareness with existence, > > > is a faulty notion. > > > > > > Note that awareness per se is quite distinct from > > > " awareness *of* X " . The moment there is a label > > > or description it is no longer truly awareness. > > > " Awareness of " really means something like " noticing " > > > or " attention to " . True awareness can never be > > > reduced to anything specific. > > > > > > In the end there is realization that there is > > > nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal > > > appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in > > > nature. > > > > > > This is because in the end there is just Now, > > > alive and vital, and in which there is no > > > duration. Effectively, Now = Awareness. > > > > > > Finally, note that in the Living Now, or Awareness, > > > there are no objects. There are no distinctions, > > > there are no forms. There is just Aliveness = > > > Now = Awareness. > > > > > > Does that mean that immersion in the Living Now > > > precludes things like driving a car, because a > > > car is an object, a stop sign is an object, etc.? > > > No, not at all. Everything flows as if in automatic > > > pilot. A check can be written, for example, but all > > > the while the emptiness of the check, the emptiness, > > > of the pen (even the emptiness of the account!, > > > the emptiness of all things pervades all behavior, > > > which behavior is empty as well. Every thing happens > > > automatically. There is no need to " believe in " > > > objects for functioning to transpire. > > > > > > > > > Bill > > >You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? > > For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be > > somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of > > being.If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must > > be composed of Aliveness. > > > > What I am talking about will seem baffling to > many. > > In the Living Now there is not even experience > as such. There is no " I am experiencing X " . > There is no " I am <anything> " . > > If you rub your eyes and close them then you > see a bunch of " sparklies " . It is moving and > changing so much there is no specific pattern. > > If you really look at a rock, not in a focused > way, but in a contemplative way, just gazing > very openly, you will perhaps notice that the > visual image of the rock is actually not fixed. > There is movement in the visual field, the " rock " > is constantly being repainted, there is nothing > static about it at all. Same for anything > perceived, and also for any " internal " content. > > My point with that is that everything is always > in movement within the field of perception, and > that also includes internal sensations, such as > what we call thoughts, ideas, forms, etc. Have > you ever tried to see the hard edges of a thought? > Have you ever tried to actually observe a thought > as a distinct entity? You can't actually do that. > Even if you say, " I keep having the same thought > over and over, " that is really just an expression. > Are they actually the very same thought, or very > similar thoughts? If you really pay attention to > what passes through consciousness you will > discover that the closer you pay attention, the > more vague and fuzzy any mental content becomes. > And that includes ideas, patterns, forms, etc. > > We might fancy that behavior " works " (e.g. the > gas tank is sucessfully refilled) because " we " > are directing everything. But, I am saying, that > is an illusion. I am saying that it is possible > for all the functions of living, of survival, to > occur while attention is strictly on each new, > fresh instant, with no " hanging onto " any forms > or patterns. Behavior " works " not because of " our " > direction, but because behavior is programmed in. > Even any sense of oneself directing the behavior > is due to neural programming! And *that* is what > in essence is illusion. There is a show going on, > brought to you by the brain, starring a crafted > " you " image/idea, but it is not that " you " that > does anything, it is all the product of the brain. > > So just sit back and observe. Let go of imagining > that " you " are doing anything and start noticing > how whatever is " done " happens of its own. Like > when you respond to someone's " Hello! " > > But more importantly, notice how each instant the > sensations of experience are being *repainted*. > There is nothing fixed in it. There is a re-Fresh > every instant. Forget continuity. Forget trying > to " follow " where anything is going. Always take > the new re-Fresh as What Is. That is the ultimage > Letting Go. Taste the immediacy and implacability > of change. You will come, in the end, to never > settle for less. > > > Bill > I like what was said above. It seems here...that the letting going....happens......not as the result of personal effort....but some other...most peculiar ripening.....in which letting go occurs quite naturally......with no effort at all. Quite to opposite of what we are led to believe. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > <snp> > > > > Awareness is unrelated to " existence " . > > > > > > > > Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > > > > > > > Hence the notion, " Without awareness nothing is, " > > > > which attempts to link awareness with existence, > > > > is a faulty notion. > > > > > > > > Note that awareness per se is quite distinct from > > > > " awareness *of* X " . The moment there is a label > > > > or description it is no longer truly awareness. > > > > " Awareness of " really means something like " noticing " > > > > or " attention to " . True awareness can never be > > > > reduced to anything specific. > > > > > > > > In the end there is realization that there is > > > > nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal > > > > appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in > > > > nature. > > > > > > > > This is because in the end there is just Now, > > > > alive and vital, and in which there is no > > > > duration. Effectively, Now = Awareness. > > > > > > > > Finally, note that in the Living Now, or Awareness, > > > > there are no objects. There are no distinctions, > > > > there are no forms. There is just Aliveness = > > > > Now = Awareness. > > > > > > > > Does that mean that immersion in the Living Now > > > > precludes things like driving a car, because a > > > > car is an object, a stop sign is an object, etc.? > > > > No, not at all. Everything flows as if in automatic > > > > pilot. A check can be written, for example, but all > > > > the while the emptiness of the check, the emptiness, > > > > of the pen (even the emptiness of the account!, > > > > the emptiness of all things pervades all behavior, > > > > which behavior is empty as well. Every thing happens > > > > automatically. There is no need to " believe in " > > > > objects for functioning to transpire. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > >You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? > > > For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be > > > somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of > > > being.If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must > > > be composed of Aliveness. > > > > > > > What I am talking about will seem baffling to > > many. > > > > In the Living Now there is not even experience > > as such. There is no " I am experiencing X " . > > There is no " I am <anything> " . > > > > If you rub your eyes and close them then you > > see a bunch of " sparklies " . It is moving and > > changing so much there is no specific pattern. > > > > If you really look at a rock, not in a focused > > way, but in a contemplative way, just gazing > > very openly, you will perhaps notice that the > > visual image of the rock is actually not fixed. > > There is movement in the visual field, the " rock " > > is constantly being repainted, there is nothing > > static about it at all. Same for anything > > perceived, and also for any " internal " content. > > > > My point with that is that everything is always > > in movement within the field of perception, and > > that also includes internal sensations, such as > > what we call thoughts, ideas, forms, etc. Have > > you ever tried to see the hard edges of a thought? > > Have you ever tried to actually observe a thought > > as a distinct entity? You can't actually do that. > > Even if you say, " I keep having the same thought > > over and over, " that is really just an expression. > > Are they actually the very same thought, or very > > similar thoughts? If you really pay attention to > > what passes through consciousness you will > > discover that the closer you pay attention, the > > more vague and fuzzy any mental content becomes. > > And that includes ideas, patterns, forms, etc. > > > > We might fancy that behavior " works " (e.g. the > > gas tank is sucessfully refilled) because " we " > > are directing everything. But, I am saying, that > > is an illusion. I am saying that it is possible > > for all the functions of living, of survival, to > > occur while attention is strictly on each new, > > fresh instant, with no " hanging onto " any forms > > or patterns. Behavior " works " not because of " our " > > direction, but because behavior is programmed in. > > Even any sense of oneself directing the behavior > > is due to neural programming! And *that* is what > > in essence is illusion. There is a show going on, > > brought to you by the brain, starring a crafted > > " you " image/idea, but it is not that " you " that > > does anything, it is all the product of the brain. > > > > So just sit back and observe. Let go of imagining > > that " you " are doing anything and start noticing > > how whatever is " done " happens of its own. Like > > when you respond to someone's " Hello! " > > > > But more importantly, notice how each instant the > > sensations of experience are being *repainted*. > > There is nothing fixed in it. There is a re-Fresh > > every instant. Forget continuity. Forget trying > > to " follow " where anything is going. Always take > > the new re-Fresh as What Is. That is the ultimage > > Letting Go. Taste the immediacy and implacability > > of change. You will come, in the end, to never > > settle for less. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > I like what was said above. > > > It seems here...that the letting going....happens......not as the > result of personal effort....but some other...most peculiar > ripening.....in which letting go occurs quite naturally......with no > effort at all. > > Quite to opposite of what we are led to believe. > > > toombaru quite so. a splendiferous examination of the multi-faceted work of fancy and entertainment known as explaining why one is ever so realized above the ordinary. unlike those who would have us believe that some other un-fancier deal (like spreading fertilizer about what is going on) is what's occurring in those paragraphs above.. a winner among men and angels and other sparklies. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > <snp> > > > > Awareness is unrelated to " existence " . > > > > > > > > Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > > > > > > > Hence the notion, " Without awareness nothing is, " > > > > which attempts to link awareness with existence, > > > > is a faulty notion. > > > > > > > > Note that awareness per se is quite distinct from > > > > " awareness *of* X " . The moment there is a label > > > > or description it is no longer truly awareness. > > > > " Awareness of " really means something like " noticing " > > > > or " attention to " . True awareness can never be > > > > reduced to anything specific. > > > > > > > > In the end there is realization that there is > > > > nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal > > > > appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in > > > > nature. > > > > > > > > This is because in the end there is just Now, > > > > alive and vital, and in which there is no > > > > duration. Effectively, Now = Awareness. > > > > > > > > Finally, note that in the Living Now, or Awareness, > > > > there are no objects. There are no distinctions, > > > > there are no forms. There is just Aliveness = > > > > Now = Awareness. > > > > > > > > Does that mean that immersion in the Living Now > > > > precludes things like driving a car, because a > > > > car is an object, a stop sign is an object, etc.? > > > > No, not at all. Everything flows as if in automatic > > > > pilot. A check can be written, for example, but all > > > > the while the emptiness of the check, the emptiness, > > > > of the pen (even the emptiness of the account!, > > > > the emptiness of all things pervades all behavior, > > > > which behavior is empty as well. Every thing happens > > > > automatically. There is no need to " believe in " > > > > objects for functioning to transpire. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > >You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? > > > For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be > > > somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of > > > being.If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must > > > be composed of Aliveness. > > > > > > > What I am talking about will seem baffling to > > many. > > > > In the Living Now there is not even experience > > as such. There is no " I am experiencing X " . > > There is no " I am <anything> " . > > > > If you rub your eyes and close them then you > > see a bunch of " sparklies " . It is moving and > > changing so much there is no specific pattern. > > > > If you really look at a rock, not in a focused > > way, but in a contemplative way, just gazing > > very openly, you will perhaps notice that the > > visual image of the rock is actually not fixed. > > There is movement in the visual field, the " rock " > > is constantly being repainted, there is nothing > > static about it at all. Same for anything > > perceived, and also for any " internal " content. > > > > My point with that is that everything is always > > in movement within the field of perception, and > > that also includes internal sensations, such as > > what we call thoughts, ideas, forms, etc. Have > > you ever tried to see the hard edges of a thought? > > Have you ever tried to actually observe a thought > > as a distinct entity? You can't actually do that. > > Even if you say, " I keep having the same thought > > over and over, " that is really just an expression. > > Are they actually the very same thought, or very > > similar thoughts? If you really pay attention to > > what passes through consciousness you will > > discover that the closer you pay attention, the > > more vague and fuzzy any mental content becomes. > > And that includes ideas, patterns, forms, etc. > > > > We might fancy that behavior " works " (e.g. the > > gas tank is sucessfully refilled) because " we " > > are directing everything. But, I am saying, that > > is an illusion. I am saying that it is possible > > for all the functions of living, of survival, to > > occur while attention is strictly on each new, > > fresh instant, with no " hanging onto " any forms > > or patterns. Behavior " works " not because of " our " > > direction, but because behavior is programmed in. > > Even any sense of oneself directing the behavior > > is due to neural programming! And *that* is what > > in essence is illusion. There is a show going on, > > brought to you by the brain, starring a crafted > > " you " image/idea, but it is not that " you " that > > does anything, it is all the product of the brain. > > > > So just sit back and observe. Let go of imagining > > that " you " are doing anything and start noticing > > how whatever is " done " happens of its own. Like > > when you respond to someone's " Hello! " > > > > But more importantly, notice how each instant the > > sensations of experience are being *repainted*. > > There is nothing fixed in it. There is a re-Fresh > > every instant. Forget continuity. Forget trying > > to " follow " where anything is going. Always take > > the new re-Fresh as What Is. That is the ultimage > > Letting Go. Taste the immediacy and implacability > > of change. You will come, in the end, to never > > settle for less. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > I like what was said above. > > > It seems here...that the letting going....happens......not as the > result of personal effort....but some other...most peculiar > ripening.....in which letting go occurs quite naturally......with no > effort at all. > > Quite to opposite of what we are led to believe. > > > toombaru > yes! on two points... about letting go and ripening and about " what we are led to believe " ... so many pitfalls with words! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > <snp> > > > Awareness is unrelated to " existence " . > > > > > > Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > > > > > Hence the notion, " Without awareness nothing is, " > > > which attempts to link awareness with existence, > > > is a faulty notion. > > > > > > Note that awareness per se is quite distinct from > > > " awareness *of* X " . The moment there is a label > > > or description it is no longer truly awareness. > > > " Awareness of " really means something like " noticing " > > > or " attention to " . True awareness can never be > > > reduced to anything specific. > > > > > > In the end there is realization that there is > > > nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal > > > appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in > > > nature. > > > > > > This is because in the end there is just Now, > > > alive and vital, and in which there is no > > > duration. Effectively, Now = Awareness. > > > > > > Finally, note that in the Living Now, or Awareness, > > > there are no objects. There are no distinctions, > > > there are no forms. There is just Aliveness = > > > Now = Awareness. > > > > > > Does that mean that immersion in the Living Now > > > precludes things like driving a car, because a > > > car is an object, a stop sign is an object, etc.? > > > No, not at all. Everything flows as if in automatic > > > pilot. A check can be written, for example, but all > > > the while the emptiness of the check, the emptiness, > > > of the pen (even the emptiness of the account!, > > > the emptiness of all things pervades all behavior, > > > which behavior is empty as well. Every thing happens > > > automatically. There is no need to " believe in " > > > objects for functioning to transpire. > > > > > > > > > Bill > > >You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? > > For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be > > somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of > > being.If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must > > be composed of Aliveness. > > > > What I am talking about will seem baffling to > many. > > In the Living Now there is not even experience > as such. There is no " I am experiencing X " . > There is no " I am <anything> " . > > If you rub your eyes and close them then you > see a bunch of " sparklies " . It is moving and > changing so much there is no specific pattern. > > If you really look at a rock, not in a focused > way, but in a contemplative way, just gazing > very openly, you will perhaps notice that the > visual image of the rock is actually not fixed. > There is movement in the visual field, the " rock " > is constantly being repainted, there is nothing > static about it at all. Same for anything > perceived, and also for any " internal " content. > > My point with that is that everything is always > in movement within the field of perception, and > that also includes internal sensations, such as > what we call thoughts, ideas, forms, etc. Have > you ever tried to see the hard edges of a thought? > Have you ever tried to actually observe a thought > as a distinct entity? You can't actually do that. > Even if you say, " I keep having the same thought > over and over, " that is really just an expression. > Are they actually the very same thought, or very > similar thoughts? If you really pay attention to > what passes through consciousness you will > discover that the closer you pay attention, the > more vague and fuzzy any mental content becomes. > And that includes ideas, patterns, forms, etc. > > We might fancy that behavior " works " (e.g. the > gas tank is sucessfully refilled) because " we " > are directing everything. But, I am saying, that > is an illusion. I am saying that it is possible > for all the functions of living, of survival, to > occur while attention is strictly on each new, > fresh instant, with no " hanging onto " any forms > or patterns. Behavior " works " not because of " our " > direction, but because behavior is programmed in. > Even any sense of oneself directing the behavior > is due to neural programming! And *that* is what > in essence is illusion. There is a show going on, > brought to you by the brain, starring a crafted > " you " image/idea, but it is not that " you " that > does anything, it is all the product of the brain. > > So just sit back and observe. Let go of imagining > that " you " are doing anything and start noticing > how whatever is " done " happens of its own. Like > when you respond to someone's " Hello! " > > But more importantly, notice how each instant the > sensations of experience are being *repainted*. > There is nothing fixed in it. There is a re-Fresh > every instant. Forget continuity. Forget trying > to " follow " where anything is going. Always take > the new re-Fresh as What Is. That is the ultimage > Letting Go. Taste the immediacy and implacability > of change. You will come, in the end, to never > settle for less. > > > Bill >I have no trouble at all with anything you said.I admit I had not thought of thoughts as being each different even though they seem tto be a recurrance of the same thought--but how could it be any other way?I have not been able to investigate that closely--an underdeveloped faculty of concentration.;It is something I work on every day.As for choice and volition--they are somethng I have seen through long since but when my head is not clear--a common enough situation--I forget.But power , they have none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > <snp> > > > > > Awareness is unrelated to " existence " . > > > > > > > > > > Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > > > > > > > > > Hence the notion, " Without awareness nothing is, " > > > > > which attempts to link awareness with existence, > > > > > is a faulty notion. > > > > > > > > > > Note that awareness per se is quite distinct from > > > > > " awareness *of* X " . The moment there is a label > > > > > or description it is no longer truly awareness. > > > > > " Awareness of " really means something like " noticing " > > > > > or " attention to " . True awareness can never be > > > > > reduced to anything specific. > > > > > > > > > > In the end there is realization that there is > > > > > nothing but awareness, and that phenomenal > > > > > appearance is as passing clouds, unreal in > > > > > nature. > > > > > > > > > > This is because in the end there is just Now, > > > > > alive and vital, and in which there is no > > > > > duration. Effectively, Now = Awareness. > > > > > > > > > > Finally, note that in the Living Now, or Awareness, > > > > > there are no objects. There are no distinctions, > > > > > there are no forms. There is just Aliveness = > > > > > Now = Awareness. > > > > > > > > > > Does that mean that immersion in the Living Now > > > > > precludes things like driving a car, because a > > > > > car is an object, a stop sign is an object, etc.? > > > > > No, not at all. Everything flows as if in automatic > > > > > pilot. A check can be written, for example, but all > > > > > the while the emptiness of the check, the emptiness, > > > > > of the pen (even the emptiness of the account!, > > > > > the emptiness of all things pervades all behavior, > > > > > which behavior is empty as well. Every thing happens > > > > > automatically. There is no need to " believe in " > > > > > objects for functioning to transpire. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > >You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? > > > > For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be > > > > somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of > > > > being.If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must > > > > be composed of Aliveness. > > > > > > > > > > What I am talking about will seem baffling to > > > many. > > > > > > In the Living Now there is not even experience > > > as such. There is no " I am experiencing X " . > > > There is no " I am <anything> " . > > > > > > If you rub your eyes and close them then you > > > see a bunch of " sparklies " . It is moving and > > > changing so much there is no specific pattern. > > > > > > If you really look at a rock, not in a focused > > > way, but in a contemplative way, just gazing > > > very openly, you will perhaps notice that the > > > visual image of the rock is actually not fixed. > > > There is movement in the visual field, the " rock " > > > is constantly being repainted, there is nothing > > > static about it at all. Same for anything > > > perceived, and also for any " internal " content. > > > > > > My point with that is that everything is always > > > in movement within the field of perception, and > > > that also includes internal sensations, such as > > > what we call thoughts, ideas, forms, etc. Have > > > you ever tried to see the hard edges of a thought? > > > Have you ever tried to actually observe a thought > > > as a distinct entity? You can't actually do that. > > > Even if you say, " I keep having the same thought > > > over and over, " that is really just an expression. > > > Are they actually the very same thought, or very > > > similar thoughts? If you really pay attention to > > > what passes through consciousness you will > > > discover that the closer you pay attention, the > > > more vague and fuzzy any mental content becomes. > > > And that includes ideas, patterns, forms, etc. > > > > > > We might fancy that behavior " works " (e.g. the > > > gas tank is sucessfully refilled) because " we " > > > are directing everything. But, I am saying, that > > > is an illusion. I am saying that it is possible > > > for all the functions of living, of survival, to > > > occur while attention is strictly on each new, > > > fresh instant, with no " hanging onto " any forms > > > or patterns. Behavior " works " not because of " our " > > > direction, but because behavior is programmed in. > > > Even any sense of oneself directing the behavior > > > is due to neural programming! And *that* is what > > > in essence is illusion. There is a show going on, > > > brought to you by the brain, starring a crafted > > > " you " image/idea, but it is not that " you " that > > > does anything, it is all the product of the brain. > > > > > > So just sit back and observe. Let go of imagining > > > that " you " are doing anything and start noticing > > > how whatever is " done " happens of its own. Like > > > when you respond to someone's " Hello! " > > > > > > But more importantly, notice how each instant the > > > sensations of experience are being *repainted*. > > > There is nothing fixed in it. There is a re-Fresh > > > every instant. Forget continuity. Forget trying > > > to " follow " where anything is going. Always take > > > the new re-Fresh as What Is. That is the ultimage > > > Letting Go. Taste the immediacy and implacability > > > of change. You will come, in the end, to never > > > settle for less. > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > I like what was said above. > > > > > > It seems here...that the letting going....happens......not as the > > result of personal effort....but some other...most peculiar > > ripening.....in which letting go occurs quite naturally......with no > > effort at all. > > > > Quite to opposite of what we are led to believe. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > yes! on two points... > > about letting go and ripening > and about " what we are led to believe " ... > > so many pitfalls with words! > > > Bill yes on two more very intricate and important points and ideas and all: 1. result of personal effort...Not! 2. with no effort at all...Non Negation! so many words with pitfalls! Q.E.D. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 Thoughts by Others: 1. Existence is temporal, awareness is not. 2. You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of being. If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must be composed of Aliveness. Regarding # 1. This seems logical if I assume awareness is 'self awareness' which is very likely infinite. Regarding # 2. " in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? " . This is really no different than the dream state which is Now. When you leave the dream state do the contrived forms exist? Existence is would appear to be just another layer of a dream state. Nev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Jill and Nevyn Campanella " <campanella wrote: > > Thoughts by Others: > 1. Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > 2. You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? Where did the people in your dream last night come from....where are they now? For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of being. If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must be composed of Aliveness. How would " Aliveness " know that? > > > Regarding # 1. This seems logical if I assume awareness is 'self awareness' which is very likely infinite. Only a self would imagine a concept like " infinity " and then claim it for its own. > > Regarding # 2. " in the living Now there are no forms- There is no such thing as " the living now'. There are no frozen moments.....except in the memory of the mind. >-where are they then? " . In memory.....and imagination. They exist only as electro-chemical synaptic scintillations. This is really no different than the dream state which is Now. When you leave the dream state do the contrived forms exist? You are the dream state.......outside of that......there is nothing. Existence is would appear to be just another layer of a dream state. > Indeed.......except there are no " layers " . toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Jill and Nevyn Campanella " <campanella wrote: > > Thoughts by Others: > 1. Existence is temporal, awareness is not. > > 2. You say in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? For certainly there are forms in our experience and they have to be somewhere. Ideas are patterns,i.e., forms.They have some kind of being. If there is just Aliveness then ideas, sensations, etc. must be composed of Aliveness. > > > Regarding # 1. This seems logical if I assume awareness is 'self awareness' which is very likely infinite. > > Regarding # 2. " in the living Now there are no forms--where are they then? " . This is really no different than the dream state which is Now. When you leave the dream state do the contrived forms exist? Existence is would appear to be just another layer of a dream state. Interesting comment. But even in the dream state, is there persistence of form? And I mean *in the dream state* itself, not in or as per recollection of dreaming. Bill > Nev > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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