Guest guest Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 Who is IN the mind? Sadhu:how are you? b: i am fine dear and how are you?> Sadhu:fine with their mercy, time moving fast. b: mm Sadhu: steven, i am still uncertain about false religions. Last time we spoke you said its o.k that a religion is false as long as it is done with love. b: Yes, since all is HIM the idea that something is false is impossible. Following a false path will only show that the one following it is false .. then he will find The Way to HIM. Sadhu:to my opinion it is very easy to go astray in this world, i even i have a poem saying that almost everything is ignorance and false, and only a small ray of light calls you to see the truth. b: the way to HIM is very subtle .. yes. this makes those who will come to HIM sincere and committed the others go the false ways by the millions; then they find their way is false and come back to HIM after exhausting themselves in the delusion. Thus that way also comes back to him but the long way around. Hence no way is actually false at all. Sadhu:ah! b: Yet to explain the truth to anyone is impossible as the truth and how it fills everything and every being also, is far too complex to understand.... only HE can understand Himself you see. So it is better just to give a little when asked. _/|\__ Sadhu:well, yes, the whole and complete truth remains obscure until we are realized; but to have truth in doses is a true way of living, we cannot simply swallow everything at once. b: yes, even great arjun was terrified .. yes. Sadhu:So even when we feed our life with ignorance, if it is done for God it is a true life as well? b: yes... because later we will exhaust our arrogant idea that we can do it.. then we will come back to HIM. hence it leads to HIM; but first some of us have to go thru the hell created by our rebellion and arrogance; but again it is the long way around. Sadhu:It just seems bizare that a way of religion that is supposed to lead to God has ignorance in it. b: It is bizzarre yes.. but imagine a man who is a drug addict. after a long time he sees he is the cause of HIS own death... his behavoiur did it; his selfishness. If he was not selfish he will find love; love for GOD, love for Self love for everyone and everything.. but this occurs by degrees gradually. so we live many lifetimes and are refined like gold ... then because of the process of the distallation of the love- consciousness (which is the presence of knowledge about the sameness of Love, compassion and consciousness in us), we get a body that is ready for HIM... THEN HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and remembers who HE IS. Previously (since HE is all) HE was choosing to play and not remember who HE is even though HE was in the body and mind all the time pretending HE WAS JIVA. but this game he is said to be playing is not done deliberately (it is not mallicious) because any mode of being or consciousness is in fact actually one of his modes of consciousness and is part of HIM just as your finger is part of you. Sadhu:can you give me some practical examples of how a person exhausts his arrogance? b: mmm... Those things which happen to us that are not good, happen because we resist love... ... the 1st resistance to love is lack of faith in HIM or lack of belief in HIS INTEGRITY .... (to say HE has INTEGRITY, in this context means he has nothing but perfect love and intentions toward us) resisting love is to put forward or believe in a self that is NOT HIM.... < THAT is arrogance.... The word arrogance comes from the root " TO ARROGATE " which means: 1. Demand as being one's due or property; assert one's right or title to. 2. Make undue claims to having. 3. Seize and take control without authority and possibly with force; take as one's right or possession. b: On the other hand to only think of HIM and to acknowledge that the VOICE in our own head is not ours at ALL but HIS... (since HE is ALL) ... < means to trust HIM completely. SO then belief in his integrity gives rise to total faith in HIM (faith in GOD) that then becomes love for HIM; then in the para-bakthi there can be no seeing ourselves as separate from HIM..... There is no arrogance; Then it is HE that shines AS the Self in that ONE. b: This means that the jiva never comes to shine by himself.. he never achieves anything; it is That GOD who is ALL who achieves ALL. one should not claim ownership or authorship of anything that claiming is also arrogance; because one must exist or arragoate a self in order to own it. It is thus selfishness and lack of faith the results of that arrogance make us hurt and know pain .. because HE gives us the pain etc. to show us the outcome of our own selfishness (i.e. pain is the outcome of selfishness) hence HE teaches us by pain also as well as by love. This is why we call HIM the Sadguru. hence even pain leads to HIM in the end. Sadhu:yes, all their mercy Sadhu: your words: " Then we get a body that is ready for him... THEN HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and remembers who HE IS " - a body of a devotee you mean? b: Yes He becomes aware of WHO HE IS in the body of the devotee. Then the jiva's purpose is fulfilled and Jiva goes back to the mother ... just as did Sita in Ramayana once Rama realized Himself. (remember his realization was spoken by Hanuman) Hanuman said " You are Narayana! " (Hanuman is THE MIND) Om Tat Sat! b: Sadhu:steven, if i can call you this - may i know where do you derrive all your knowledge from, and how can you be sure that what you believe is the truth? b: dear friend... i do not know a thing... all this comes direct... i know it is all true because it agrees with Sri Krishnaa own words... I do not believe a thing; instead it is a case of faith in HIS integrity not the integrity or truth of what is said by this man. It is direct. Sadhu:direct how, from the gita, or another thing? b: well my dear since it is HE WHO has REALIZED HIMSELF in this body it is FROM HIM ..... after all HE Himself has Said HE IS the Self in all beings ... __/|\__ This is not belief' it is certain truth... going into this man ... there is no form of self ...... no located individual.....there is the consciousness and the presence of the Absolute infinitely layed out AS existence; that man named steven is merely a label for a part of The Self just as the finger is the name of that part of the body.. but the whole or the finger are still the body; which part is the body? " ALL? " or is the body more than the sum of its parts? The label has no selfhood; just as the finger does not mean a thing without the body nor does the Jiva mean a thing without HIM. Sadhu:o.k, so you say you are are a part of Him. b: Yes just as are all things and beings; but the consciousness in this " me " is NOT ME, it is HIM; that " me " to whom you refer is an idea as to who steven is... but the SELF IN this is NOT STEVEN and the SELF in YOU is not YOU it IS HIM. It is SRI KRISNAA or GOD or whatever you want to say. In us both he says " i am steven " or he says " i am sadhu " it is neither you nor i who say this because someone else is referring to us, and saying HE IS US. Hence it is plain as to WHO HE IS. Sadhu:dear, you should try to consider if this is a belief or not, since Krishna in gita says, " just as you say " " He is the self in all beings " , he does not say the self is Him. and just because of your understanding of these words you have built a complete new theory about what is the truth, how do we understand what He said in gita? b: Your words>>> " he does not say the self is Him " <<< you are saying -- that what i am saying --- is; that i think -- the one you or i might refer to as our own self -- b: is THE REAL SELF.. that is NOT what i am saying at all. I am saying: that the ONE " WHO SAYS " or referrs to that SELF about which you speak... IS THE REAL SELF.. and that the ONE HE IS referring TO IS NOT the real self but is JIVA; so you are missing my point but since only HE exists.. and the JIVA (as you .. the self is not him) .... jiva, does not HAVE HIS OWN SELF because that SELF IS GOD not JIVA. Remember Arjun was gambling with Udistera... he lost everything even his own self... he has nothign to gamble with then. Sadhu:this is not the conclusion of the gita dear. this is not the meaning of the gita. b: : We will have to agree to disagree then dear and remain firm friends. But do you think that even Ramana said these exact things?... or do you think Ramana was wrong also? All books, Siva sutra included Siva Samhita, Tirumantirum, Abhinavagupta, Dattreya - all agree with this; so you are saying all are wrong except you ji? Sadhu:i know, but thought to try to convince you a little this time, if you are open minded to other versions.but like you said false is not bad it is just an indirect truth. b: mmm -- All ideas and all knowledge and all paths and all modes are HIS and all degrees of this and that are also HIS so then there is no problem anywhere about anything; HE is perfectly trust-worthy Sadhu:Man gets his ideas from logic, then everything can be argued upon with logic. and Vedas are for logical people, but since human is not perfect, his logic is not as perfect as the Vedas and hence may get confused and make mistakes. The fact that you are saying that all is Him is due to the way of your thinking and the logic you posses, so this proves my point. b: yes.. but those mistakes and misinformation are also part of HIS Knowledge; so there is again nothing wrong since it is HE WHO IS OMNISCIENT and the KNOWER of all things.... yes, but it is not my power of logic ... it is HIS and thus what is known of logic is also HIS knowledge not mine. HE uses HIS intelligence to know all in all, AS ALL. HE is existing in countless forms AS the BEINGS... knowing differently due to the vasanas ... then it seems each Jiva has Karma of his own but NO since GOD IS ALL that Karma is HIS and it is what makes the Jiva what he is... but the KARMA does not belong to Jiva hence it is easy to be free of Karma if we give up selfishness and everything which upholds selfishness. Selfishness means to argue for the existence of A SELF who is separate FROM HIM. Sadhu:but you did not know this from the beginning of your life, you had to use your logic to get to this conclusion. b: NO i did not use any logic... not one bit. One day i was talking ... and HE SAID IT then i knew. Dear ... everything i say to everyone ... is also taught to me even as i say it; it comes directly from HIM. Previously i did not know it; i do not sit for hours dreaming up the massive complexities which you have seen me say; it just comes out like water from a tap i know nothing of the machanics of it, it just happens i think it is due to the asking ... as i know HE IS ASKING HIMSELF; so that in you HE can come to know himself. So ... with your voice ... he asks about HIMSELF; and with my voice HE speaks to HIMSELF IN YOU then HE knows in us both; that is how it seems to work. How could a man dream up the massive complexities that i speak? if i could do that one could call ME (the man) a genius but i am not... i do not even know who i am... the only thing i do know (i the man) is that it is not I that knows... i know i dont know; HE KNOWS. Sadhu:truth is not that complex, it is the karma of your mind speaking. sorry if this offends you. b: LOL no ji... the complexities are spoken of... to show that the mind cannot understand .... and yes truth is simple but from that very simplicity all this complexity has come; itis like a million reflections of reflections of relfections that after a while .. no matter how smart one is.... one will get lost, or contradict himself. that is the whole reason why he speaks in such deep and complex ways (to show that neither the mind nor the Jiva can Understand WHO HE IS) .. only HE can know HIMSELF ... SINCE HE IS ALL ... that is why it is called SELF-realization or SELF-recognition. b: dear friend i must say goodnight at this point.. may HE Bless you __/|\__ namaste Sadhu:o.k steven, so Krishna must sleep according to you..... b: no ji -- the body needs sleep ... HE is Kind enough to allow this so that the body can serve HIM. Sadhu:so only the one who speaks is Krishna............. b: yes .. that is correct even in all of us. HE thinks, feels, sings, chants, prays and speaks writes love songs, poems and music to HIMSELF with all hands Now good night dear one! __/|\__ b: BYE now Sadhu:RadheRadhe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 JIVA and GOD are the same thing. I am the Self in all beings ... Nisargadatta , " bindu " <binduau wrote: > > Who is IN the mind? > > Sadhu:how are you? > > b: i am fine dear and how are you?> > > Sadhu:fine with their mercy, time moving fast. > > b: mm > Sadhu: steven, i am still uncertain about false religions. Last time > we spoke you said its o.k that a religion is false as long as it is > done with love. > > b: Yes, since all is HIM the idea that something is false is > impossible. Following a false path will only show that the one > following it is false .. then he will find The Way to HIM. > > Sadhu:to my opinion it is very easy to go astray in this world, i > even i have a poem saying that almost everything is ignorance and > false, and only a small ray of light calls you to see the truth. > > b: the way to HIM is very subtle .. yes. this makes those who will > come to HIM sincere and committed the others go the false ways by the > millions; then they find their way is false and come back to HIM > after exhausting themselves in the delusion. Thus that way also comes > back to him but the long way around. Hence no way is actually false > at all. > > Sadhu:ah! > > b: Yet to explain the truth to anyone is impossible as the truth and > how it fills everything and every being also, is far too complex to > understand.... only HE can understand Himself you see. So it is > better just to give a little when asked. _/|\__ > > Sadhu:well, yes, the whole and complete truth remains obscure until > we are realized; but to have truth in doses is a true way of living, > we cannot simply swallow everything at once. > > b: yes, even great arjun was terrified .. yes. > > Sadhu:So even when we feed our life with ignorance, if it is done for > God it is a true life as well? > > b: yes... because later we will exhaust our arrogant idea that we can > do it.. then we will come back to HIM. hence it leads to HIM; but > first some of us have to go thru the hell created by our rebellion > and arrogance; but again it is the long way around. > > Sadhu:It just seems bizare that a way of religion that is supposed to > lead to God has ignorance in it. > > b: It is bizzarre yes.. but imagine a man who is a drug addict. after > a long time he sees he is the cause of HIS own death... his behavoiur > did it; his selfishness. If he was not selfish he will find love; > love for GOD, love for Self > love for everyone and everything.. but this occurs by degrees > gradually. so we live many lifetimes and are refined like gold ... > then because of the process of the distallation of the love- > consciousness (which is the presence of knowledge about the sameness > of Love, compassion and consciousness in us), we get a body that is > ready for HIM... THEN HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and remembers > who HE IS. > > Previously (since HE is all) HE was choosing to play and not remember > who HE is even though HE was in the body and mind all the time > pretending HE WAS JIVA. but this game he is said to be playing is not > done deliberately (it is not mallicious) because any mode of being or > consciousness is in fact actually one of his modes of consciousness > and is part of HIM just as your finger is part of you. > > Sadhu:can you give me some practical examples of how a person > exhausts his arrogance? > > b: mmm... Those things which happen to us that are not good, happen > because we resist love... ... the 1st resistance to love is lack of > faith in HIM or lack of belief in HIS INTEGRITY .... (to say HE has > INTEGRITY, in this context means he has nothing but perfect love and > intentions toward us) resisting love is to put forward or believe in > a self that is NOT HIM.... < THAT is arrogance.... > > The word arrogance comes from the root " TO ARROGATE " which means: 1. > Demand as being one's due or property; assert one's right or title to. > 2. Make undue claims to having. > 3. Seize and take control without authority and possibly with force; > take as one's right or possession. > > > b: On the other hand to only think of HIM and to acknowledge that the > VOICE in our own head is not ours at ALL but HIS... (since HE is > ALL) ... < means to trust HIM completely. SO then belief in his > integrity gives rise to total faith in HIM (faith in GOD) that then > becomes love for HIM; then in the para-bakthi there can be no seeing > ourselves as separate from HIM..... There is no arrogance; Then it is > HE that shines AS the Self in that ONE. > > b: This means that the jiva never comes to shine by himself.. he > never achieves anything; it is That GOD who is ALL who achieves ALL. > one should not claim ownership or authorship of anything that > claiming is also arrogance; because one must exist or arragoate a > self in order to own it. It is thus selfishness and lack of faith the > results of that arrogance make us hurt and know pain .. because HE > gives us the pain etc. to show us the outcome of our own selfishness > (i.e. pain is the outcome of selfishness) hence HE teaches us by pain > also as well as by love. This is why we call HIM the Sadguru. hence > even pain leads to HIM in the end. > > Sadhu:yes, all their mercy > > Sadhu: your words: " Then we get a body that is ready for him... THEN > HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and remembers who HE IS " - a body > of a devotee you mean? > > b: Yes He becomes aware of WHO HE IS in the body of the devotee. Then > the jiva's purpose is fulfilled and Jiva goes back to the mother ... > just as did Sita in Ramayana once Rama realized Himself. (remember > his realization was spoken by Hanuman) Hanuman said " You are > Narayana! " (Hanuman is THE MIND) Om Tat Sat! > b: > > Sadhu:steven, if i can call you this - may i know where do you > derrive all your knowledge from, and how can you be sure that what > you believe is the truth? > > b: dear friend... i do not know a thing... all this comes direct... i > know it is all true because it agrees with Sri Krishnaa own words... > I do not believe a thing; instead it is a case of faith in HIS > integrity not the integrity or truth of what is said by this man. It > is direct. > > Sadhu:direct how, from the gita, or another thing? > > b: well my dear since it is HE WHO has REALIZED HIMSELF in this body > it is FROM HIM ..... after all HE Himself has Said HE IS the Self in > all beings ... __/|\__ > > This is not belief' it is certain truth... going into this man ... > there is no form of self ...... no located individual.....there is > the consciousness and the presence of the Absolute infinitely layed > out AS existence; that man named steven is merely a label for a part > of The Self just as the finger is the name of that part of the body.. > but the whole or the finger are still the body; which part is the > body? " ALL? " or is the body more than the sum of its parts? > The label has no selfhood; just as the finger does not mean a thing > without the body nor does the Jiva mean a thing without HIM. > > Sadhu:o.k, so you say you are are a part of Him. > > b: Yes just as are all things and beings; but the consciousness in > this " me " is NOT ME, it is HIM; that " me " to whom you refer is an > idea as to who steven is... but the SELF IN this is NOT STEVEN and > the SELF in YOU is not YOU > it IS HIM. It is SRI KRISNAA or GOD or whatever you want to say. In > us both he says " i am steven " or he says " i am sadhu " it is neither > you nor i who say this because someone else is referring to us, and > saying HE IS US. Hence it is plain as to WHO HE IS. > > > Sadhu:dear, you should try to consider if this is a belief or not, > since Krishna in gita says, " just as you say " " He is the self in all > beings " , he does not say the self is Him. and just because of your > understanding of these words you have built a complete new theory > about what is the truth, how do we understand what He said in gita? > > b: Your words>>> " he does not say the self is Him " <<< you are > saying -- that what i am saying --- is; that i think -- the one you > or i might refer to as our own self -- b: is THE REAL SELF.. that is > NOT what i am saying at all. > > I am saying: that the ONE " WHO SAYS " or referrs to that SELF about > which you speak... IS THE REAL SELF.. and that the ONE HE IS > referring TO IS NOT the real self but is JIVA; so you are missing my > point but since only HE exists.. and the JIVA (as you .. the self is > not him) .... jiva, does not HAVE HIS OWN SELF because that SELF IS > GOD not JIVA. > > Remember Arjun was gambling with Udistera... he lost everything even > his own self... he has nothign to gamble with then. > > Sadhu:this is not the conclusion of the gita dear. this is not the > meaning of the gita. > > b: : We will have to agree to disagree then dear and remain firm > friends. But do you think that even Ramana said these exact > things?... or do you think Ramana was wrong also? > > All books, Siva sutra included Siva Samhita, Tirumantirum, > Abhinavagupta, Dattreya - all agree with this; so you are saying all > are wrong except you ji? > > Sadhu:i know, but thought to try to convince you a little this time, > if you are open minded to other versions.but like you said false is > not bad it is just an indirect truth. > > b: mmm -- All ideas and all knowledge and all paths and all modes are > HIS and all degrees of this and that are also HIS > so then there is no problem anywhere about anything; HE is perfectly > trust-worthy > > Sadhu:Man gets his ideas from logic, then everything can be argued > upon with logic. and Vedas are for logical people, but since human is > not perfect, his logic is not as perfect as the Vedas and hence may > get confused and make mistakes. The fact that you are saying that all > is Him is due to the way of your thinking and the logic you posses, > so this proves my point. > > b: yes.. but those mistakes and misinformation are also part of HIS > Knowledge; so there is again nothing wrong since it is HE WHO IS > OMNISCIENT and the KNOWER of all things.... yes, but it is not my > power of logic ... it is HIS and thus what is known of logic is also > HIS knowledge not mine. HE uses HIS intelligence to know all in all, > AS ALL. HE is existing in countless forms AS the BEINGS... knowing > differently due to the vasanas ... then it seems each Jiva has Karma > of his own but NO since GOD IS ALL that Karma is HIS and it is what > makes the Jiva what he is... but the KARMA does not belong to Jiva > hence it is easy to be free of Karma if we give up selfishness and > everything which upholds selfishness. Selfishness means to argue for > the existence of A SELF who is separate FROM HIM. > > Sadhu:but you did not know this from the beginning of your life, you > had to use your logic to get to this conclusion. > > b: NO i did not use any logic... not one bit. One day i was > talking ... and HE SAID IT then i knew. Dear ... everything i say to > everyone ... is also taught to me even as i say it; it comes directly > from HIM. Previously i did not know it; i do not sit for hours > dreaming up the massive complexities which you have seen me say; it > just comes out like water from a tap i know nothing of the machanics > of it, it just happens > > i think it is due to the asking ... as i know HE IS ASKING HIMSELF; > so that in you HE can come to know himself. So ... with your > voice ... he asks about HIMSELF; and with my voice HE speaks to > HIMSELF IN YOU then HE knows in us both; that is how it seems to work. > > How could a man dream up the massive complexities that i speak? if i > could do that one could call ME (the man) a genius but i am not... i > do not even know who i am... the only thing i do know (i the man) is > that it is not I that knows... i know i dont know; HE KNOWS. > > Sadhu:truth is not that complex, it is the karma of your mind > speaking. sorry if this offends you. > > b: LOL no ji... the complexities are spoken of... to show that the > mind cannot understand .... and yes truth is simple but from that > very simplicity all this complexity has come; itis like a million > reflections of reflections of relfections that after a while .. no > matter how smart one is.... one will get lost, or contradict himself. > that is the whole reason why he speaks in such deep and complex ways > (to show that neither the mind nor the Jiva can Understand WHO HE > IS) .. only HE can know HIMSELF ... SINCE HE IS ALL ... that is why > it is called SELF-realization or SELF-recognition. > > b: dear friend i must say goodnight at this point.. may HE Bless you > __/|\__ namaste > > Sadhu:o.k steven, so Krishna must sleep according to you..... > > b: no ji -- the body needs sleep ... HE is Kind enough to allow this > so that the body can serve HIM. > > Sadhu:so only the one who speaks is Krishna............. > > b: yes .. that is correct even in all of us. HE thinks, feels, > sings, chants, prays and speaks writes love songs, poems and music to > HIMSELF with all hands Now good night dear one! __/|\__ > > b: BYE now > > Sadhu:RadheRadhe. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Nisargadatta , " lulu.dong " <lulu.dong wrote: > > JIVA and GOD are the same thing. > > I am the Self in all beings ... > > > > Nisargadatta , " bindu " <binduau@> wrote: > > > > Who is IN the mind? > > > > Sadhu:how are you? > > > > b: i am fine dear and how are you?> > > > > Sadhu:fine with their mercy, time moving fast. > > > > b: mm > > Sadhu: steven, i am still uncertain about false religions. Last > time > > we spoke you said its o.k that a religion is false as long as it > is > > done with love. > > > > b: Yes, since all is HIM the idea that something is false is > > impossible. Following a false path will only show that the one > > following it is false .. then he will find The Way to HIM. > > > > Sadhu:to my opinion it is very easy to go astray in this world, i > > even i have a poem saying that almost everything is ignorance and > > false, and only a small ray of light calls you to see the truth. > > > > b: the way to HIM is very subtle .. yes. this makes those who will > > come to HIM sincere and committed the others go the false ways by > the > > millions; then they find their way is false and come back to HIM > > after exhausting themselves in the delusion. Thus that way also > comes > > back to him but the long way around. Hence no way is actually > false > > at all. > > > > Sadhu:ah! > > > > b: Yet to explain the truth to anyone is impossible as the truth > and > > how it fills everything and every being also, is far too complex > to > > understand.... only HE can understand Himself you see. So it is > > better just to give a little when asked. _/|\__ > > > > Sadhu:well, yes, the whole and complete truth remains obscure > until > > we are realized; but to have truth in doses is a true way of > living, > > we cannot simply swallow everything at once. > > > > b: yes, even great arjun was terrified .. yes. > > > > Sadhu:So even when we feed our life with ignorance, if it is done > for > > God it is a true life as well? > > > > b: yes... because later we will exhaust our arrogant idea that we > can > > do it.. then we will come back to HIM. hence it leads to HIM; but > > first some of us have to go thru the hell created by our rebellion > > and arrogance; but again it is the long way around. > > > > Sadhu:It just seems bizare that a way of religion that is supposed > to > > lead to God has ignorance in it. > > > > b: It is bizzarre yes.. but imagine a man who is a drug addict. > after > > a long time he sees he is the cause of HIS own death... his > behavoiur > > did it; his selfishness. If he was not selfish he will find love; > > love for GOD, love for Self > > love for everyone and everything.. but this occurs by degrees > > gradually. so we live many lifetimes and are refined like gold ... > > then because of the process of the distallation of the love- > > consciousness (which is the presence of knowledge about the > sameness > > of Love, compassion and consciousness in us), we get a body that > is > > ready for HIM... THEN HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and > remembers > > who HE IS. > > > > Previously (since HE is all) HE was choosing to play and not > remember > > who HE is even though HE was in the body and mind all the time > > pretending HE WAS JIVA. but this game he is said to be playing is > not > > done deliberately (it is not mallicious) because any mode of being > or > > consciousness is in fact actually one of his modes of > consciousness > > and is part of HIM just as your finger is part of you. > > > > Sadhu:can you give me some practical examples of how a person > > exhausts his arrogance? > > > > b: mmm... Those things which happen to us that are not good, > happen > > because we resist love... ... the 1st resistance to love is lack > of > > faith in HIM or lack of belief in HIS INTEGRITY .... (to say HE > has > > INTEGRITY, in this context means he has nothing but perfect love > and > > intentions toward us) resisting love is to put forward or believe > in > > a self that is NOT HIM.... < THAT is arrogance.... > > > > The word arrogance comes from the root " TO ARROGATE " which means: > 1. > > Demand as being one's due or property; assert one's right or title > to. > > 2. Make undue claims to having. > > 3. Seize and take control without authority and possibly with > force; > > take as one's right or possession. > > > > > > b: On the other hand to only think of HIM and to acknowledge that > the > > VOICE in our own head is not ours at ALL but HIS... (since HE is > > ALL) ... < means to trust HIM completely. SO then belief in his > > integrity gives rise to total faith in HIM (faith in GOD) that > then > > becomes love for HIM; then in the para-bakthi there can be no > seeing > > ourselves as separate from HIM..... There is no arrogance; Then it > is > > HE that shines AS the Self in that ONE. > > > > b: This means that the jiva never comes to shine by himself.. he > > never achieves anything; it is That GOD who is ALL who achieves > ALL. > > one should not claim ownership or authorship of anything that > > claiming is also arrogance; because one must exist or arragoate a > > self in order to own it. It is thus selfishness and lack of faith > the > > results of that arrogance make us hurt and know pain .. because HE > > gives us the pain etc. to show us the outcome of our own > selfishness > > (i.e. pain is the outcome of selfishness) hence HE teaches us by > pain > > also as well as by love. This is why we call HIM the Sadguru. > hence > > even pain leads to HIM in the end. > > > > Sadhu:yes, all their mercy > > > > Sadhu: your words: " Then we get a body that is ready for him... > THEN > > HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and remembers who HE IS " - a > body > > of a devotee you mean? > > > > b: Yes He becomes aware of WHO HE IS in the body of the devotee. > Then > > the jiva's purpose is fulfilled and Jiva goes back to the > mother ... > > just as did Sita in Ramayana once Rama realized Himself. (remember > > his realization was spoken by Hanuman) Hanuman said " You are > > Narayana! " (Hanuman is THE MIND) Om Tat Sat! > > b: > > > > Sadhu:steven, if i can call you this - may i know where do you > > derrive all your knowledge from, and how can you be sure that what > > you believe is the truth? > > > > b: dear friend... i do not know a thing... all this comes > direct... i > > know it is all true because it agrees with Sri Krishnaa own > words... > > I do not believe a thing; instead it is a case of faith in HIS > > integrity not the integrity or truth of what is said by this man. > It > > is direct. > > > > Sadhu:direct how, from the gita, or another thing? > > > > b: well my dear since it is HE WHO has REALIZED HIMSELF in this > body > > it is FROM HIM ..... after all HE Himself has Said HE IS the Self > in > > all beings ... __/|\__ > > > > This is not belief' it is certain truth... going into this man ... > > there is no form of self ...... no located individual.....there is > > the consciousness and the presence of the Absolute infinitely > layed > > out AS existence; that man named steven is merely a label for a > part > > of The Self just as the finger is the name of that part of the > body.. > > but the whole or the finger are still the body; which part is the > > body? " ALL? " or is the body more than the sum of its parts? > > The label has no selfhood; just as the finger does not mean a > thing > > without the body nor does the Jiva mean a thing without HIM. > > > > Sadhu:o.k, so you say you are are a part of Him. > > > > b: Yes just as are all things and beings; but the consciousness in > > this " me " is NOT ME, it is HIM; that " me " to whom you refer is an > > idea as to who steven is... but the SELF IN this is NOT STEVEN and > > the SELF in YOU is not YOU > > it IS HIM. It is SRI KRISNAA or GOD or whatever you want to say. > In > > us both he says " i am steven " or he says " i am sadhu " it is > neither > > you nor i who say this because someone else is referring to us, > and > > saying HE IS US. Hence it is plain as to WHO HE IS. > > > > > > Sadhu:dear, you should try to consider if this is a belief or not, > > since Krishna in gita says, " just as you say " " He is the self in > all > > beings " , he does not say the self is Him. and just because of your > > understanding of these words you have built a complete new theory > > about what is the truth, how do we understand what He said in gita? > > > > b: Your words>>> " he does not say the self is Him " <<< you are > > saying -- that what i am saying --- is; that i think -- the one > you > > or i might refer to as our own self -- b: is THE REAL SELF.. that > is > > NOT what i am saying at all. > > > > I am saying: that the ONE " WHO SAYS " or referrs to that SELF > about > > which you speak... IS THE REAL SELF.. and that the ONE HE IS > > referring TO IS NOT the real self but is JIVA; so you are missing > my > > point but since only HE exists.. and the JIVA (as you .. the self > is > > not him) .... jiva, does not HAVE HIS OWN SELF because that SELF > IS > > GOD not JIVA. > > > > Remember Arjun was gambling with Udistera... he lost everything > even > > his own self... he has nothign to gamble with then. > > > > Sadhu:this is not the conclusion of the gita dear. this is not the > > meaning of the gita. > > > > b: : We will have to agree to disagree then dear and remain firm > > friends. But do you think that even Ramana said these exact > > things?... or do you think Ramana was wrong also? > > > > All books, Siva sutra included Siva Samhita, Tirumantirum, > > Abhinavagupta, Dattreya - all agree with this; so you are saying > all > > are wrong except you ji? > > > > Sadhu:i know, but thought to try to convince you a little this > time, > > if you are open minded to other versions.but like you said false > is > > not bad it is just an indirect truth. > > > > b: mmm -- All ideas and all knowledge and all paths and all modes > are > > HIS and all degrees of this and that are also HIS > > so then there is no problem anywhere about anything; HE is > perfectly > > trust-worthy > > > > Sadhu:Man gets his ideas from logic, then everything can be argued > > upon with logic. and Vedas are for logical people, but since human > is > > not perfect, his logic is not as perfect as the Vedas and hence > may > > get confused and make mistakes. The fact that you are saying that > all > > is Him is due to the way of your thinking and the logic you > posses, > > so this proves my point. > > > > b: yes.. but those mistakes and misinformation are also part of > HIS > > Knowledge; so there is again nothing wrong since it is HE WHO IS > > OMNISCIENT and the KNOWER of all things.... yes, but it is not my > > power of logic ... it is HIS and thus what is known of logic is > also > > HIS knowledge not mine. HE uses HIS intelligence to know all in > all, > > AS ALL. HE is existing in countless forms AS the BEINGS... knowing > > differently due to the vasanas ... then it seems each Jiva has > Karma > > of his own but NO since GOD IS ALL that Karma is HIS and it is > what > > makes the Jiva what he is... but the KARMA does not belong to Jiva > > hence it is easy to be free of Karma if we give up selfishness and > > everything which upholds selfishness. Selfishness means to argue > for > > the existence of A SELF who is separate FROM HIM. > > > > Sadhu:but you did not know this from the beginning of your life, > you > > had to use your logic to get to this conclusion. > > > > b: NO i did not use any logic... not one bit. One day i was > > talking ... and HE SAID IT then i knew. Dear ... everything i say > to > > everyone ... is also taught to me even as i say it; it comes > directly > > from HIM. Previously i did not know it; i do not sit for hours > > dreaming up the massive complexities which you have seen me say; > it > > just comes out like water from a tap i know nothing of the > machanics > > of it, it just happens > > > > i think it is due to the asking ... as i know HE IS ASKING > HIMSELF; > > so that in you HE can come to know himself. So ... with your > > voice ... he asks about HIMSELF; and with my voice HE speaks to > > HIMSELF IN YOU then HE knows in us both; that is how it seems to > work. > > > > How could a man dream up the massive complexities that i speak? if > i > > could do that one could call ME (the man) a genius but i am not... > i > > do not even know who i am... the only thing i do know (i the man) > is > > that it is not I that knows... i know i dont know; HE KNOWS. > > > > Sadhu:truth is not that complex, it is the karma of your mind > > speaking. sorry if this offends you. > > > > b: LOL no ji... the complexities are spoken of... to show that the > > mind cannot understand .... and yes truth is simple but from that > > very simplicity all this complexity has come; itis like a million > > reflections of reflections of relfections that after a while .. no > > matter how smart one is.... one will get lost, or contradict > himself. > > that is the whole reason why he speaks in such deep and complex > ways > > (to show that neither the mind nor the Jiva can Understand WHO HE > > IS) .. only HE can know HIMSELF ... SINCE HE IS ALL ... that is > why > > it is called SELF-realization or SELF-recognition. > > > > b: dear friend i must say goodnight at this point.. may HE Bless > you > > __/|\__ namaste > > > > Sadhu:o.k steven, so Krishna must sleep according to you..... > > > > b: no ji -- the body needs sleep ... HE is Kind enough to allow > this > > so that the body can serve HIM. > > > > Sadhu:so only the one who speaks is Krishna............. > > > > b: yes .. that is correct even in all of us. HE thinks, feels, > > sings, chants, prays and speaks writes love songs, poems and music > to > > HIMSELF with all hands Now good night dear one! __/|\__ > > > > b: BYE now > > > > Sadhu:RadheRadhe. this is swell! almost peachy. bye now dear one, ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Nisargadatta , " bindu " <binduau wrote: > > Who is IN the mind? > > Sadhu:how are you? > > b: i am fine dear and how are you?> > > Sadhu:fine with their mercy, time moving fast. > > b: mm > Sadhu: steven, i am still uncertain about false religions. Last time > we spoke you said its o.k that a religion is false as long as it is > done with love. > > b: Yes, since all is HIM the idea that something is false is > impossible. Following a false path will only show that the one > following it is false .. then he will find The Way to HIM. > > Sadhu:to my opinion it is very easy to go astray in this world, i > even i have a poem saying that almost everything is ignorance and > false, and only a small ray of light calls you to see the truth. > > b: the way to HIM is very subtle .. yes. this makes those who will > come to HIM sincere and committed the others go the false ways by the > millions; then they find their way is false and come back to HIM > after exhausting themselves in the delusion. Thus that way also comes > back to him but the long way around. Hence no way is actually false > at all. > > Sadhu:ah! > > b: Yet to explain the truth to anyone is impossible as the truth and > how it fills everything and every being also, is far too complex to > understand.... only HE can understand Himself you see. So it is > better just to give a little when asked. _/|\__ > > Sadhu:well, yes, the whole and complete truth remains obscure until > we are realized; but to have truth in doses is a true way of living, > we cannot simply swallow everything at once. > > b: yes, even great arjun was terrified .. yes. > > Sadhu:So even when we feed our life with ignorance, if it is done for > God it is a true life as well? > > b: yes... because later we will exhaust our arrogant idea that we can > do it.. then we will come back to HIM. hence it leads to HIM; but > first some of us have to go thru the hell created by our rebellion > and arrogance; but again it is the long way around. > > Sadhu:It just seems bizare that a way of religion that is supposed to > lead to God has ignorance in it. > > b: It is bizzarre yes.. but imagine a man who is a drug addict. after > a long time he sees he is the cause of HIS own death... his behavoiur > did it; his selfishness. If he was not selfish he will find love; > love for GOD, love for Self > love for everyone and everything.. but this occurs by degrees > gradually. so we live many lifetimes and are refined like gold ... > then because of the process of the distallation of the love- > consciousness (which is the presence of knowledge about the sameness > of Love, compassion and consciousness in us), we get a body that is > ready for HIM... THEN HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and remembers > who HE IS. > > Previously (since HE is all) HE was choosing to play and not remember > who HE is even though HE was in the body and mind all the time > pretending HE WAS JIVA. but this game he is said to be playing is not > done deliberately (it is not mallicious) because any mode of being or > consciousness is in fact actually one of his modes of consciousness > and is part of HIM just as your finger is part of you. > > Sadhu:can you give me some practical examples of how a person > exhausts his arrogance? > > b: mmm... Those things which happen to us that are not good, happen > because we resist love... ... the 1st resistance to love is lack of > faith in HIM or lack of belief in HIS INTEGRITY .... (to say HE has > INTEGRITY, in this context means he has nothing but perfect love and > intentions toward us) resisting love is to put forward or believe in > a self that is NOT HIM.... < THAT is arrogance.... > > The word arrogance comes from the root " TO ARROGATE " which means: 1. > Demand as being one's due or property; assert one's right or title to. > 2. Make undue claims to having. > 3. Seize and take control without authority and possibly with force; > take as one's right or possession. > > > b: On the other hand to only think of HIM and to acknowledge that the > VOICE in our own head is not ours at ALL but HIS... (since HE is > ALL) ... < means to trust HIM completely. SO then belief in his > integrity gives rise to total faith in HIM (faith in GOD) that then > becomes love for HIM; then in the para-bakthi there can be no seeing > ourselves as separate from HIM..... There is no arrogance; Then it is > HE that shines AS the Self in that ONE. > > b: This means that the jiva never comes to shine by himself.. he > never achieves anything; it is That GOD who is ALL who achieves ALL. > one should not claim ownership or authorship of anything that > claiming is also arrogance; because one must exist or arragoate a > self in order to own it. It is thus selfishness and lack of faith the > results of that arrogance make us hurt and know pain .. because HE > gives us the pain etc. to show us the outcome of our own selfishness > (i.e. pain is the outcome of selfishness) hence HE teaches us by pain > also as well as by love. This is why we call HIM the Sadguru. hence > even pain leads to HIM in the end. > > Sadhu:yes, all their mercy > > Sadhu: your words: " Then we get a body that is ready for him... THEN > HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and remembers who HE IS " - a body > of a devotee you mean? > > b: Yes He becomes aware of WHO HE IS in the body of the devotee. Then > the jiva's purpose is fulfilled and Jiva goes back to the mother ... > just as did Sita in Ramayana once Rama realized Himself. (remember > his realization was spoken by Hanuman) Hanuman said " You are > Narayana! " (Hanuman is THE MIND) Om Tat Sat! > b: > > Sadhu:steven, if i can call you this - may i know where do you > derrive all your knowledge from, and how can you be sure that what > you believe is the truth? > > b: dear friend... i do not know a thing... all this comes direct... i > know it is all true because it agrees with Sri Krishnaa own words... > I do not believe a thing; instead it is a case of faith in HIS > integrity not the integrity or truth of what is said by this man. It > is direct. > > Sadhu:direct how, from the gita, or another thing? > > b: well my dear since it is HE WHO has REALIZED HIMSELF in this body > it is FROM HIM ..... after all HE Himself has Said HE IS the Self in > all beings ... __/|\__ > > This is not belief' it is certain truth... going into this man ... > there is no form of self ...... no located individual.....there is > the consciousness and the presence of the Absolute infinitely layed > out AS existence; that man named steven is merely a label for a part > of The Self just as the finger is the name of that part of the body.. > but the whole or the finger are still the body; which part is the > body? " ALL? " or is the body more than the sum of its parts? > The label has no selfhood; just as the finger does not mean a thing > without the body nor does the Jiva mean a thing without HIM. > > Sadhu:o.k, so you say you are are a part of Him. > > b: Yes just as are all things and beings; but the consciousness in > this " me " is NOT ME, it is HIM; that " me " to whom you refer is an > idea as to who steven is... but the SELF IN this is NOT STEVEN and > the SELF in YOU is not YOU > it IS HIM. It is SRI KRISNAA or GOD or whatever you want to say. In > us both he says " i am steven " or he says " i am sadhu " it is neither > you nor i who say this because someone else is referring to us, and > saying HE IS US. Hence it is plain as to WHO HE IS. > > > Sadhu:dear, you should try to consider if this is a belief or not, > since Krishna in gita says, " just as you say " " He is the self in all > beings " , he does not say the self is Him. and just because of your > understanding of these words you have built a complete new theory > about what is the truth, how do we understand what He said in gita? > > b: Your words>>> " he does not say the self is Him " <<< you are > saying -- that what i am saying --- is; that i think -- the one you > or i might refer to as our own self -- b: is THE REAL SELF.. that is > NOT what i am saying at all. > > I am saying: that the ONE " WHO SAYS " or referrs to that SELF about > which you speak... IS THE REAL SELF.. and that the ONE HE IS > referring TO IS NOT the real self but is JIVA; so you are missing my > point but since only HE exists.. and the JIVA (as you .. the self is > not him) .... jiva, does not HAVE HIS OWN SELF because that SELF IS > GOD not JIVA. > > Remember Arjun was gambling with Udistera... he lost everything even > his own self... he has nothign to gamble with then. > > Sadhu:this is not the conclusion of the gita dear. this is not the > meaning of the gita. > > b: : We will have to agree to disagree then dear and remain firm > friends. But do you think that even Ramana said these exact > things?... or do you think Ramana was wrong also? > > All books, Siva sutra included Siva Samhita, Tirumantirum, > Abhinavagupta, Dattreya - all agree with this; so you are saying all > are wrong except you ji? > > Sadhu:i know, but thought to try to convince you a little this time, > if you are open minded to other versions.but like you said false is > not bad it is just an indirect truth. > > b: mmm -- All ideas and all knowledge and all paths and all modes are > HIS and all degrees of this and that are also HIS > so then there is no problem anywhere about anything; HE is perfectly > trust-worthy > > Sadhu:Man gets his ideas from logic, then everything can be argued > upon with logic. and Vedas are for logical people, but since human is > not perfect, his logic is not as perfect as the Vedas and hence may > get confused and make mistakes. The fact that you are saying that all > is Him is due to the way of your thinking and the logic you posses, > so this proves my point. > > b: yes.. but those mistakes and misinformation are also part of HIS > Knowledge; so there is again nothing wrong since it is HE WHO IS > OMNISCIENT and the KNOWER of all things.... yes, but it is not my > power of logic ... it is HIS and thus what is known of logic is also > HIS knowledge not mine. HE uses HIS intelligence to know all in all, > AS ALL. HE is existing in countless forms AS the BEINGS... knowing > differently due to the vasanas ... then it seems each Jiva has Karma > of his own but NO since GOD IS ALL that Karma is HIS and it is what > makes the Jiva what he is... but the KARMA does not belong to Jiva > hence it is easy to be free of Karma if we give up selfishness and > everything which upholds selfishness. Selfishness means to argue for > the existence of A SELF who is separate FROM HIM. > > Sadhu:but you did not know this from the beginning of your life, you > had to use your logic to get to this conclusion. > > b: NO i did not use any logic... not one bit. One day i was > talking ... and HE SAID IT then i knew. Dear ... everything i say to > everyone ... is also taught to me even as i say it; it comes directly > from HIM. Previously i did not know it; i do not sit for hours > dreaming up the massive complexities which you have seen me say; it > just comes out like water from a tap i know nothing of the machanics > of it, it just happens > > i think it is due to the asking ... as i know HE IS ASKING HIMSELF; > so that in you HE can come to know himself. So ... with your > voice ... he asks about HIMSELF; and with my voice HE speaks to > HIMSELF IN YOU then HE knows in us both; that is how it seems to work. > > How could a man dream up the massive complexities that i speak? if i > could do that one could call ME (the man) a genius but i am not... i > do not even know who i am... the only thing i do know (i the man) is > that it is not I that knows... i know i dont know; HE KNOWS. > > Sadhu:truth is not that complex, it is the karma of your mind > speaking. sorry if this offends you. > > b: LOL no ji... the complexities are spoken of... to show that the > mind cannot understand .... and yes truth is simple but from that > very simplicity all this complexity has come; itis like a million > reflections of reflections of relfections that after a while .. no > matter how smart one is.... one will get lost, or contradict himself. > that is the whole reason why he speaks in such deep and complex ways > (to show that neither the mind nor the Jiva can Understand WHO HE > IS) .. only HE can know HIMSELF ... SINCE HE IS ALL ... that is why > it is called SELF-realization or SELF-recognition. > > b: dear friend i must say goodnight at this point.. may HE Bless you > __/|\__ namaste > > Sadhu:o.k steven, so Krishna must sleep according to you..... > > b: no ji -- the body needs sleep ... HE is Kind enough to allow this > so that the body can serve HIM. > > Sadhu:so only the one who speaks is Krishna............. > > b: yes .. that is correct even in all of us. HE thinks, feels, > sings, chants, prays and speaks writes love songs, poems and music to > HIMSELF with all hands Now good night dear one! __/|\__ > > b: BYE now > > Sadhu:RadheRadhe. > b. is right: he does speak with a complicated tongue.But he always comes back to the same thing:There is only One doer.That Zen roshi who wrote the the famous poem --hsin-hsin ming -- containing the famous lines: When asked to name IT I can only say NOT TWO said it best. You can't prove it by me (who speak not from experience but from admiration, which is to say: From imagination) but I like the ring of the words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Nisargadatta , " tom " <jeusisbuen wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " bindu " <binduau@> wrote: > > > > Who is IN the mind? > > > > Sadhu:how are you? > > > > b: i am fine dear and how are you?> > > > > Sadhu:fine with their mercy, time moving fast. > > > > b: mm > > Sadhu: steven, i am still uncertain about false religions. Last > time > > we spoke you said its o.k that a religion is false as long as it > is > > done with love. > > > > b: Yes, since all is HIM the idea that something is false is > > impossible. Following a false path will only show that the one > > following it is false .. then he will find The Way to HIM. > > > > Sadhu:to my opinion it is very easy to go astray in this world, i > > even i have a poem saying that almost everything is ignorance and > > false, and only a small ray of light calls you to see the truth. > > > > b: the way to HIM is very subtle .. yes. this makes those who will > > come to HIM sincere and committed the others go the false ways by > the > > millions; then they find their way is false and come back to HIM > > after exhausting themselves in the delusion. Thus that way also > comes > > back to him but the long way around. Hence no way is actually > false > > at all. > > > > Sadhu:ah! > > > > b: Yet to explain the truth to anyone is impossible as the truth > and > > how it fills everything and every being also, is far too complex > to > > understand.... only HE can understand Himself you see. So it is > > better just to give a little when asked. _/|\__ > > > > Sadhu:well, yes, the whole and complete truth remains obscure > until > > we are realized; but to have truth in doses is a true way of > living, > > we cannot simply swallow everything at once. > > > > b: yes, even great arjun was terrified .. yes. > > > > Sadhu:So even when we feed our life with ignorance, if it is done > for > > God it is a true life as well? > > > > b: yes... because later we will exhaust our arrogant idea that we > can > > do it.. then we will come back to HIM. hence it leads to HIM; but > > first some of us have to go thru the hell created by our rebellion > > and arrogance; but again it is the long way around. > > > > Sadhu:It just seems bizare that a way of religion that is supposed > to > > lead to God has ignorance in it. > > > > b: It is bizzarre yes.. but imagine a man who is a drug addict. > after > > a long time he sees he is the cause of HIS own death... his > behavoiur > > did it; his selfishness. If he was not selfish he will find love; > > love for GOD, love for Self > > love for everyone and everything.. but this occurs by degrees > > gradually. so we live many lifetimes and are refined like gold ... > > then because of the process of the distallation of the love- > > consciousness (which is the presence of knowledge about the > sameness > > of Love, compassion and consciousness in us), we get a body that > is > > ready for HIM... THEN HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and > remembers > > who HE IS. > > > > Previously (since HE is all) HE was choosing to play and not > remember > > who HE is even though HE was in the body and mind all the time > > pretending HE WAS JIVA. but this game he is said to be playing is > not > > done deliberately (it is not mallicious) because any mode of being > or > > consciousness is in fact actually one of his modes of > consciousness > > and is part of HIM just as your finger is part of you. > > > > Sadhu:can you give me some practical examples of how a person > > exhausts his arrogance? > > > > b: mmm... Those things which happen to us that are not good, > happen > > because we resist love... ... the 1st resistance to love is lack > of > > faith in HIM or lack of belief in HIS INTEGRITY .... (to say HE > has > > INTEGRITY, in this context means he has nothing but perfect love > and > > intentions toward us) resisting love is to put forward or believe > in > > a self that is NOT HIM.... < THAT is arrogance.... > > > > The word arrogance comes from the root " TO ARROGATE " which means: > 1. > > Demand as being one's due or property; assert one's right or title > to. > > 2. Make undue claims to having. > > 3. Seize and take control without authority and possibly with > force; > > take as one's right or possession. > > > > > > b: On the other hand to only think of HIM and to acknowledge that > the > > VOICE in our own head is not ours at ALL but HIS... (since HE is > > ALL) ... < means to trust HIM completely. SO then belief in his > > integrity gives rise to total faith in HIM (faith in GOD) that > then > > becomes love for HIM; then in the para-bakthi there can be no > seeing > > ourselves as separate from HIM..... There is no arrogance; Then it > is > > HE that shines AS the Self in that ONE. > > > > b: This means that the jiva never comes to shine by himself.. he > > never achieves anything; it is That GOD who is ALL who achieves > ALL. > > one should not claim ownership or authorship of anything that > > claiming is also arrogance; because one must exist or arragoate a > > self in order to own it. It is thus selfishness and lack of faith > the > > results of that arrogance make us hurt and know pain .. because HE > > gives us the pain etc. to show us the outcome of our own > selfishness > > (i.e. pain is the outcome of selfishness) hence HE teaches us by > pain > > also as well as by love. This is why we call HIM the Sadguru. > hence > > even pain leads to HIM in the end. > > > > Sadhu:yes, all their mercy > > > > Sadhu: your words: " Then we get a body that is ready for him... > THEN > > HE BECOMES conscious IN THAT BODY and remembers who HE IS " - a > body > > of a devotee you mean? > > > > b: Yes He becomes aware of WHO HE IS in the body of the devotee. > Then > > the jiva's purpose is fulfilled and Jiva goes back to the > mother ... > > just as did Sita in Ramayana once Rama realized Himself. (remember > > his realization was spoken by Hanuman) Hanuman said " You are > > Narayana! " (Hanuman is THE MIND) Om Tat Sat! > > b: > > > > Sadhu:steven, if i can call you this - may i know where do you > > derrive all your knowledge from, and how can you be sure that what > > you believe is the truth? > > > > b: dear friend... i do not know a thing... all this comes > direct... i > > know it is all true because it agrees with Sri Krishnaa own > words... > > I do not believe a thing; instead it is a case of faith in HIS > > integrity not the integrity or truth of what is said by this man. > It > > is direct. > > > > Sadhu:direct how, from the gita, or another thing? > > > > b: well my dear since it is HE WHO has REALIZED HIMSELF in this > body > > it is FROM HIM ..... after all HE Himself has Said HE IS the Self > in > > all beings ... __/|\__ > > > > This is not belief' it is certain truth... going into this man ... > > there is no form of self ...... no located individual.....there is > > the consciousness and the presence of the Absolute infinitely > layed > > out AS existence; that man named steven is merely a label for a > part > > of The Self just as the finger is the name of that part of the > body.. > > but the whole or the finger are still the body; which part is the > > body? " ALL? " or is the body more than the sum of its parts? > > The label has no selfhood; just as the finger does not mean a > thing > > without the body nor does the Jiva mean a thing without HIM. > > > > Sadhu:o.k, so you say you are are a part of Him. > > > > b: Yes just as are all things and beings; but the consciousness in > > this " me " is NOT ME, it is HIM; that " me " to whom you refer is an > > idea as to who steven is... but the SELF IN this is NOT STEVEN and > > the SELF in YOU is not YOU > > it IS HIM. It is SRI KRISNAA or GOD or whatever you want to say. > In > > us both he says " i am steven " or he says " i am sadhu " it is > neither > > you nor i who say this because someone else is referring to us, > and > > saying HE IS US. Hence it is plain as to WHO HE IS. > > > > > > Sadhu:dear, you should try to consider if this is a belief or not, > > since Krishna in gita says, " just as you say " " He is the self in > all > > beings " , he does not say the self is Him. and just because of your > > understanding of these words you have built a complete new theory > > about what is the truth, how do we understand what He said in gita? > > > > b: Your words>>> " he does not say the self is Him " <<< you are > > saying -- that what i am saying --- is; that i think -- the one > you > > or i might refer to as our own self -- b: is THE REAL SELF.. that > is > > NOT what i am saying at all. > > > > I am saying: that the ONE " WHO SAYS " or referrs to that SELF > about > > which you speak... IS THE REAL SELF.. and that the ONE HE IS > > referring TO IS NOT the real self but is JIVA; so you are missing > my > > point but since only HE exists.. and the JIVA (as you .. the self > is > > not him) .... jiva, does not HAVE HIS OWN SELF because that SELF > IS > > GOD not JIVA. > > > > Remember Arjun was gambling with Udistera... he lost everything > even > > his own self... he has nothign to gamble with then. > > > > Sadhu:this is not the conclusion of the gita dear. this is not the > > meaning of the gita. > > > > b: : We will have to agree to disagree then dear and remain firm > > friends. But do you think that even Ramana said these exact > > things?... or do you think Ramana was wrong also? > > > > All books, Siva sutra included Siva Samhita, Tirumantirum, > > Abhinavagupta, Dattreya - all agree with this; so you are saying > all > > are wrong except you ji? > > > > Sadhu:i know, but thought to try to convince you a little this > time, > > if you are open minded to other versions.but like you said false > is > > not bad it is just an indirect truth. > > > > b: mmm -- All ideas and all knowledge and all paths and all modes > are > > HIS and all degrees of this and that are also HIS > > so then there is no problem anywhere about anything; HE is > perfectly > > trust-worthy > > > > Sadhu:Man gets his ideas from logic, then everything can be argued > > upon with logic. and Vedas are for logical people, but since human > is > > not perfect, his logic is not as perfect as the Vedas and hence > may > > get confused and make mistakes. The fact that you are saying that > all > > is Him is due to the way of your thinking and the logic you > posses, > > so this proves my point. > > > > b: yes.. but those mistakes and misinformation are also part of > HIS > > Knowledge; so there is again nothing wrong since it is HE WHO IS > > OMNISCIENT and the KNOWER of all things.... yes, but it is not my > > power of logic ... it is HIS and thus what is known of logic is > also > > HIS knowledge not mine. HE uses HIS intelligence to know all in > all, > > AS ALL. HE is existing in countless forms AS the BEINGS... knowing > > differently due to the vasanas ... then it seems each Jiva has > Karma > > of his own but NO since GOD IS ALL that Karma is HIS and it is > what > > makes the Jiva what he is... but the KARMA does not belong to Jiva > > hence it is easy to be free of Karma if we give up selfishness and > > everything which upholds selfishness. Selfishness means to argue > for > > the existence of A SELF who is separate FROM HIM. > > > > Sadhu:but you did not know this from the beginning of your life, > you > > had to use your logic to get to this conclusion. > > > > b: NO i did not use any logic... not one bit. One day i was > > talking ... and HE SAID IT then i knew. Dear ... everything i say > to > > everyone ... is also taught to me even as i say it; it comes > directly > > from HIM. Previously i did not know it; i do not sit for hours > > dreaming up the massive complexities which you have seen me say; > it > > just comes out like water from a tap i know nothing of the > machanics > > of it, it just happens > > > > i think it is due to the asking ... as i know HE IS ASKING > HIMSELF; > > so that in you HE can come to know himself. So ... with your > > voice ... he asks about HIMSELF; and with my voice HE speaks to > > HIMSELF IN YOU then HE knows in us both; that is how it seems to > work. > > > > How could a man dream up the massive complexities that i speak? if > i > > could do that one could call ME (the man) a genius but i am not... > i > > do not even know who i am... the only thing i do know (i the man) > is > > that it is not I that knows... i know i dont know; HE KNOWS. > > > > Sadhu:truth is not that complex, it is the karma of your mind > > speaking. sorry if this offends you. > > > > b: LOL no ji... the complexities are spoken of... to show that the > > mind cannot understand .... and yes truth is simple but from that > > very simplicity all this complexity has come; itis like a million > > reflections of reflections of relfections that after a while .. no > > matter how smart one is.... one will get lost, or contradict > himself. > > that is the whole reason why he speaks in such deep and complex > ways > > (to show that neither the mind nor the Jiva can Understand WHO HE > > IS) .. only HE can know HIMSELF ... SINCE HE IS ALL ... that is > why > > it is called SELF-realization or SELF-recognition. > > > > b: dear friend i must say goodnight at this point.. may HE Bless > you > > __/|\__ namaste > > > > Sadhu:o.k steven, so Krishna must sleep according to you..... > > > > b: no ji -- the body needs sleep ... HE is Kind enough to allow > this > > so that the body can serve HIM. > > > > Sadhu:so only the one who speaks is Krishna............. > > > > b: yes .. that is correct even in all of us. HE thinks, feels, > > sings, chants, prays and speaks writes love songs, poems and music > to > > HIMSELF with all hands Now good night dear one! __/|\__ > > > > b: BYE now > > > > Sadhu:RadheRadhe. > > > b. is right: he does speak with a complicated tongue.But he always > comes back to the same thing:There is only One doer.That Zen roshi > who wrote the the famous poem --hsin-hsin ming -- containing the > famous lines: > When asked to name IT > I can only say NOT TWO > > said it best. You can't prove it by me (who speak not from > experience but from admiration, which is to say: From imagination) > but I like the ring of the words. so... ..b is 'right'? what or who isn't 'right'? what or who can be called 'wrong'? it's ALL bullshit. if it wasn't..we wouldn't be here discussing it. it can't be discussed. i don't imagine anyway. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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