Guest guest Posted October 26, 2007 Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 *** Advaita *** Advaita is one of a large number of teachings that offers " Spiritual Enlightenment. " You could substitute almost any other teaching of " Enlightenment " in the discussion below. *** Is Advaita a Cult?? *** Do you really want to believe there is something more than just this mundane, misery-filled, earthly life, and then that's it? Or do you really WANT to believe there is something more? Advaita offers that for which we have all been seeking: Enlightenment, Heaven on Earth, the One True Way, Freedom from all suffering, and Oneness with God. But is it just another Cult? Is it Brainwashing? Are its believers Delusional or suffering from Psychosis? Is it just another religion? There are zillions of people and zillions of groups who claim to have " The Answer " to all your problems. Advaita is one of those teachings. The people who " believe " in Advaita and claim that it has changed their lives for the better say MANY of the EXACT same things that Cult believers do. How can you ever know if THIS set of beliefs is finally " The Answer " ? *** SUMMARY *** Advaita can be seen as the ultimate self-help program because it solves 100% of ALL of your problems. That is because you actually transcend this life, there is no " you " any more, you are one with everyone and everything in the universe. You now realize your " true natural state, " you " awaken from the dream " which was the entire life you had lived up until this moment. You are now " One with God " (you and everything else IS God, you just didn't know it before Advaita), you reach " Nirvana " , " The Real Truth " , " Constant Bliss " , " Innate Happiness " , " True Freedom " , etc. This is truly the answer to all your problems. Who wouldn't want all that?! To achieve this, proponents often study ancient, obscure spiritual or semi-religious documents, usually with guidance of a Guru, ideally from India. What you have to get is " ineffable " -- it can never actually be explained, it must be experienced. But once you experience it you will never want to (or even be able to?) go back. Many cool Eastern-sounding paradoxes abound: You must search for it, but you can't get it until you stop searching for it. You realize that there is no such thing as " time " any more. You believe you are eternal, and this is just one of many of your lives. If you are killed that is OK, that is just your body dying, that is not the real you, you are Eternal. All of your thoughts and emotions really don't exist, you realize there is no such thing as free choice, you therefore have no responsibility. Proponents of Advaita say that if you call them a cult, then you just don't get it. Just like all cults do. *** Reality, or Mental Disorder *** Why do you believe what you believe? Most people don't even know WHAT they believe, let alone the reasons WHY they believe those things. SOME of the reasons WHY you believe what you believe are: 1. an authority figure you trust told you (parents, news reporter, etc.) 2. you are afraid not to (authoritarian religious belief) 3. you really want to (there must be life after death, I don't want to believe this is all there is) 4. you engaged in groupthink (everyone else believes it, so you do as well) 5. you had an EXPERIENCE that convinced you something was true Note that the strongest beliefs we ever have are #5 -- things we believe because we actually experienced them ourselves. And the only way a person can get Enlightened in Advaita is by having a particular mysterious experience. Then they " know " it is true. But how can they share an EXPERIENCE with you? They can't! Therefore the *ONLY* way for you to " know " what it is like to be Enlightened in Advaita is to have the required experience yourself. But once you have the experience, there's no turning back! It is 100% possible that believers of Advaita experience reality " the way it really is " , and are forever changed for the better, and they know something that the vast majority of humans have never known and will never know. Also, it is 100% possible that the believers of Advaita have an experience, and now they believe what they are experiencing, but they are actually " Delusional " -- that is, they really, truly, totally believe something that is in fact NOT TRUE. Obviously if you ask them, they will say that is ridiculous, they " know " what is " true " and you do not. You have now entered the realm of Epistemology -- the philosophical study of what is TRUE and what is REALITY and what are BELIEFS. You will find NO definitive answers here. SHOCKING Implication: It MUST be that EITHER people who are Enlightened, or the rest of us, are DELUSIONAL. By classical medical definitions, one group is mentally ill! And neither one can know which is right. Ever. This may be a truly impossible problem. But look at the amazing implications of this! First off, is it possible to have an experience that completely screws up your sense of reality? Are there other cases in regular medicine where this is known to be true? * Something you experienced, so you " know " it is true, but it actually is not true at all, but you really believe it is, since you actually experienced it? What is true reality? If it makes you feel better, is that wrong? What if is actually right? But what if it makes you feel bad, does that make it wrong or not true? * Some people suffer a break with reality when traumatized by an experience (shell-shocked, PTSD, victim of a crime) and they don't know what reality is any more. Dissociation is a symptom of PTSD, and it sounds shockingly similar to Enlightenment: " Dissociation is another " defense " that includes a variety of symptoms including feelings of depersonalization and derealization, disconnection between memory and affect so that the person is " in another world, " and in extreme forms can involve apparent multiple personalities and acting without any memory ( " losing time " ). " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder#Symptoms * And since you now feel really much better about yourself, you stick with that belief, even if the old " you " tries to pull yourself back into the old belief of reality. * If you had an experience that completely changed your view of reality FOR THE WORSE, you would think you were sick and had a mental breakdown, and would work really hard to get your old view of reality back. * So we seem to have a measure of what reality is: if our view of reality changes for the better, than that must be the REAL reality, but if it changes for the worse, then that can't be real and we have to be cured. * That is why you rarely hear of anyone who gets Enlightened and then goes and seeks a " cure " for this ailment. But there is one REALLY good (actually bad) example: Suzanne Segal, discussed below. More implications: A Psychotic Break is a loss of contact with reality, which is a mental disorder. MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS: You should be alarmed that there seems to be a growing trend of people who are seeking out this " enlightenment " thing -- they are actively seeking to have a mental breakdown on purpose! Here is a person writing about such an experience in a relatively mainstream publication: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stacey-lawson/who-are-you-really_b_67506.html?view\ =screen BELIEVERS IN ENLIGHTENMENT: If you are an Advaita believer, even though you don't really feel compelled to Enlighten anyone else, if you speak the language of medical professionals to show them that YOU have the correct view of reality, and they and everyone else is actually suffering a mental illness known as psychosis. They will take it from there -- it is the job and responsibility of medical professionals to cure people of their illnesses, so if you can demonstrate to them that they are mentally ill, and cure them, then they will also cure others. Then it will become the medical mainstream to fix the mental illness most people suffer from, and " cure " them by Enlightening them. Finally the world will be filled with people who are cured of mental illness. A world of people who are Enlightened/no longer mentally ill would be a entirely different world than anything else in history. Here is a scholarly work that compares Mysticism (such as Enlightenment) and Psychosis. " IT IS REFRESHING to read a paper that manages at once to be interdisciplinary and intercultural in its range of reference, and that also confronts a difficult and controversial question about how we are to assess the similarities and differences between psychotic and mystical experiences. Many psychiatrists have been skeptical about whether there are any genuine differences... " http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/philosophy_psychiatry_and_psychology/v00\ 9/9.4mcghee.html Here is the only guy I found who is a proponent of Enlightenment, yet has any criticism of the potential psychosis of Enlightenment. But he also makes fun of other teachers of Enlightenment, and you end up having no idea what the heck is the " right kind " of Enlightenment at all! http://www.infinitesmile.org/?p=172 Long paper comparing Psychosis and Mysticism. You will see that the Enlightenment promised by Advaita isn't all that special after all... The Relationship Between Schizophrenia & Mysticism: A Bibliographic Essay http://sandra.stahlman.com/schizo.html " As awareness increases to include more external and internal information, a sense of self, a boundary between self and environment, expands, seems to dissipate. The experience is one of unity with information formerly defined as non-self. This expansion of the self, often referred to as loss of self, may not be beneficial for someone who does not have a " strong " sense of self to begin with. To these people, a mystical experience can be frightening and confusing, to say the least. " " Addressing the concepts " unifying " and " ego-transcending " seems vital because the sorts of phrases turn up again and again in literature on mysticism. F.C. Happold (1975) writes " unless the idea of non-duality can be grasped the range of mystical experience is incomprehensible " (p.71). " Duality " describes the manner in which we usually perceive our self in relation to the environment. A division of " self " and " other " occurs. " Ego " can be used to refer to that self which we are aware of. What happens during a mystical experience has been described as transcending this ego, or going through a process of temporary " ego-loss. " As multiplicity ceases, the experience is of a mode of consciousness often referred to as " the One. " " " Kenneth Wapnick (1980) explains that mystics tend to follow a very structured, common process, culminating with the mystical experience. He refers to an outline of this process created by Underhill in 1961, in which the mystic moves from " an awakening of self " (p.323) to the purgation of attachments to the social world and the self, resulting in an experience of " a state of pure consciousness, in which the individual experiences nothing " (p.324). " *** Positives *** Here are some POSITIVE things that Advaita proponents say, that makes them sound like they are NOT a cult: 1. " Real " Advaita leads you to an understanding such that you do NOT feel compelled to teach others at all. Therefore all those teachers, Gurus, etc. are suspect and may very well be frauds. 2. Those who experience Advaita claim to see everything in the world as " unconditional love, " including themselves and other people. Presumably they don't want to do anything `bad' to things they love, including other people, animals, the earth, etc. 3. There are proponents who say they have been " Enlightened " by the teachings of Advaita, and they appear to live normal, productive lives within the rest of society. They don't seem to do anything too extreme like meditate on a mountaintop for the rest of their lives, or go kill lots of people, or try to " convert " everyone around them. 4. There are only a FEW people whose teachings may be considered Advaita who are obviously out to make money (such as Eckhart Tolle). 5. There do not seem to be any hard-core brainwashing techniques used (google `Scientology Brainwashing' if you want to see ALL the techniques). Mostly it is up to every individual to seek out this knowledge and continue to seek it out even when difficult. *** ALL CULTS *** ALL cults share a large number of these properties. (Longer definitions of Cults are below, or search the internet for more definitions. They all say and do the same things.) 1. They teach the " REAL " way to find God, bliss, enlightenment, eternal happiness, etc. 2. They solve ALL of your problems. 3. They can't really explain it. 4. Only a select few ever get it. 5. There is a difficult journey to get it. 6. To get it requires resolve, faith, seeking -- often times for many years or decades, or a lifetime. 7. Most followers got into it because of some pain in their life that made them seek a solution to their pain, which makes them committed/gullible. 8. There are always leaders that teach or have the special method that followers have to seek out. 9. The leaders have special powers, and followers get a " feeling " just being in their presence. 10. They use lots of weird language and mumbo-jumbo. 11. SEPARATENESS. Members are set apart from the rest of society because they are special. <-- IMPORTANT! 12. There are often cool mystical, spiritual, or religious ancient/old teachings and sacred documents. 13. Cult members " know " what is " true " and everyone else does not, so they form groups to be able to interact with other who " know " the " truth. " 14. The actual destination is debated or mysterious, and is often never really clear. 15. If you don't get it, that would be really bad. *** NEGATIVE, Cult-like teachings of Advaita *** Here are some NEGATIVE things that Advaita proponents say, that makes them sound like they ARE a cult: 1. Look at the DEFINITION of a cult: they ALL offer the REAL solution to your problems. The rewards for an Enlightened Advaita believer are astonishing! Here are just some of the things you hear Advaita believers saying you will get: Awakening from The Dream, The Ultimate Truth, God, Bliss, Heaven on Earth, Unconditional Love, Liberation, True Freedom, The Highest Happiness, Perfect Peace, Nirvana, Salvation, Metamorphosis, Universal Law, Paradise, Dharma, Dhamma, Bodhi, Satori, Kensho, Prajna, Death of the Ego, Perfect Sanity, An Illuminated Soul, Ancient Wisdom, Merging of the Human and the Divine, Brilliant Infinite Self of Awakened Consciousness, The Vastness of all Being, the Enormity of who We Really Are, One with the Universe -- to name just a few. Everything that all ancient Eastern philosophies ever taught, and arguably much of what Western religion teaches, is yours for free! 2. Very few self-help programs claim to ever be able to solve all of your problems. Even New Age teachings often refer to the " spiritual path " or your " journey towards Enlightenment " but they rarely if ever claim any sort of final destination. Only cults and religions do: They TELL you what you MUST do in order to be rewarded, and not punished. Cults vaguely tell you that you must continue to follow their teachings forever, because there is always something more, some higher level to achieve, some mysterious secret yet to be revealed and learned but maybe if you're really lucky you will be The One who actually gets it. Many religions tells you that you must do certain things here on this earth and struggle for an unachievable perfection in this life, in order to get some reward or avoid some punishment after death. But not Advaita! They tell you that you will receive all rewards, right now. All problems are solved. Heaven on earth. In an instant. Well, maybe longer. " When you see that that is what you are, then the very subtleness expresses itself. That is the uncaused joy. Nisargadatta puts it beautifully. He puts it in the negative. 'There is nothing wrong any more.' " http://sailorbob.net/home/books.html 3. All cults have some " difficult, " " incomprehensible, " or completely " ineffable " concepts that only a very small, select-few people know about or can explain. If you take The Landmark Forum they repeatedly tell you that you will " get it " but they never, EVER tell you what " IT " is. IT is inexplicable, apparently. All Cults use have concepts that are somehow spiritual, they just can't be explained rationally, and even trying to understand things rationally shows what problems you have, and how much you need whatever they are offering. Why can't you just " let go? " Advaita is arguably the most intense in this respect. The whole problem is that you are not really YOU. YOU are actually something else. So whenever you try to understand YOU, you is just getting in the way. Only when you -- in some absolutely indescribable, incommunicable manner " lets go " can the real YOU be set free, liberated, enlightened. 4. This Advaita Enlightenment is not widely known, so only a select few special people are seeking it, and even fewer ever " get it " . Before you get it, you get to belong to a cool, small, underground group of seekers-of-truth who study ancient manuscripts and wise old spiritual guys from India who got Enlightenment spontaneously, so they are really special. 5. Getting Advaita Enlightenment is also described as a paradox: It is actually staring you in the face right now, all you have to do is see it. But almost no one in history ever has. So getting it is really hard, but once you get it (often times after decades of trying) you will see how easy it was to have gotten it. The struggle and the fight to get it is necessary, but you only get it when you stop struggling and fighting. 6. Getting Advaita Enlightenment is sometimes (not always) described as requiring great discipline and resolve. Which sounds a lot like religious faith, or faith in the teachings of a cult leader. Andrew Cohen - Embracing Heaven & Earth, Page 23: To succeed, we must be convinced beyond any doubt from our own experience that Liberation is a living possibility, that it is real. But from that moment on, whether that which was directly experienced in the spiritual revelation is apparent or not, we must choose to be free in every moment no matter what. That's when we become true spiritual warriors. That's when we have finally become serious about attaining victory over ignorance in this life. 7. Like any self help program or group you can join that promised to help you solve your problems, Advaita offers to solve ALL your problems. And everyone who gets Advaita Enlightenment describes it in incredibly colorful language, often in flowery poetry, and almost always as an amazingly awesome, reality-changing experience for the better. Now imagine you have some pain in your life, and someone comes by and offers you all of this peace, love, happiness, eternal bliss. Why wouldn't you spend the rest of your life trying to find Heaven on Earth? I know damn well from personal experience that if you try to sell this to people who are HAPPY with their lives, they will think you are nuts. So therefore in my experience, the ONLY people who seek out Advaita are those who are in pain, weak, gullible, open to their teachings, etc. If you need to believe there is something more to this life, Advaita offers all the answers, the Real Truth. 8. Advaita teaches that anyone can get Enlightenment right here, right now, nothing special is required, you don't have to buy anything, follow some teacher, or even do anything like meditate. And Advaita teaches the ultimate Egalitarianism -- you aren't really you, you are just part of all the universe, so the thought that any person is more or less than any other is nonsensical. Well, sometimes they say it really helps to learn from someone who is already Enlightened, and is a master at teaching, known as a Guru or Sage or something. Uh oh! In fact there is overwhelming praise for their master teachers, they are revered as important historical figures and spiritual leaders, and they have followers and some Advaita students stridently argue their Guru is better than other Gurus. And ANYONE who got Enlightenment *spontaneously* is extra-revered! But people who get Enlightened by studying under one of the special, well-known Gurus can and often do go on to become teachers themselves. Then they set up a cool thing called a " Lineage " which presumably shows how good/special they are because they are a teacher descended from one of these revered masters. http://www.gangaji.org/satsang/library/lineage.asp http://nisargadatta.net/Navnath_Sampradaya.html http://www.ex-premie.org/video/pages/lineage.html http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0097c.htm http://www.advaita.org.uk/teachers/lineages.htm Also there is a really strong feeling that these revered, wise, mystical ancient old Indian dudes must know something the rest of us don't know. They really figured out the mystery of life. Wouldn't it be cool if you could know what they knew? How could those mystical old guys be just some sort of cult? No way. They must know something really special. Magical. Spiritual. Mystical. God-like. 9. There are many stories about how people tried to get Enlightenment on their own for a really long time, but when they finally met with their Guru they " felt " a special " presence " and shortly thereafter their lifelong quest for Enlightenment was over! 10. Advaita is an ancient Hindu teaching. So modern Western practitioners can -- and do -- use really cool kick-ass Sanskrit words like Atman, Brahman, Prasthanatrayi, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, and Brahma Sutras. And there are cool words like Non-Dualism, Delusion, Extraordinary Ordinariness, and the word Advaita itself. Now you get to make up cool sentences like this one I found on the net: " a. Brahman alone is real b. The world is unreal c. The world is Brahman. This is an ancient quote from the Upanishads which was echoed by Shankara. Appearances are only Brahman, short and sweet. " How do you like me now!! 11. SEPARATENESS -- Here we get into the culmination of a lot of things that Cults do, and that Advaita does: separates people from the mainstream. And yet another paradox: Advaita claims that when you get their brand of Enlightenment, you will become one with all, but at the same time you know damn well that very few other people actually are Enlightened. So even though you now know we are all totally the same thing, you are somehow different. Special. And get this: you now have a cool new language to use -- JUST LIKE ALL CULTS DO, so when you talk to people about what Advaita is and what happened to you, it will be all cool sounding yet incomprehensible to them -- setting you APART from the mainstream, just like ALL cults do. AND you have really cool sounding concepts, but you really can't explain them to people, just like ALL cults do. AND you know some sort of Ultimate Truth about The Way Things Really Are -- just like ALL cult members ALWAYS say. The only way for people to understand you is to join in, to get Enlightened themselves, just like ALL cults. Otherwise, all those people from your old life are now not as good as you because you know what is real and they don't. You are now separate from the mainstream. But that is totally OK, you know skeptics just say these things, and that is fine. You *KNOW* what the truth *REALLY* is, and those OTHER people are fine just the way they are. You aren't out to convert anybody. You KNOW what the truth is, you are perfectly content at all times, including when people tell you that you are bonkers. You know. They don't. You are special. You are different. Just like ALL other cult members. 12. There are ancient Advaita teachings, written in Sanskrit. They are extremely sacred, opaque, and revered. Isn't it cool to be studying some ancient mysterious wisdom that only a few people ever actually " get " making them super-happy all the time? Dude, cool. 13. Enlightened people see almost everyone else as not-Enlightened (or at best all other people are Enlightened they just don't know it yet.) Therefore Enlightened people form groups of other similarly-Enlightened people to interact with. How hard it must be to talk to all those other people who " don't get it " and are living a " delusion " and are " still dreaming " . We Advaita believers know what is true, and we have our separate concepts and language. It is just easier to hang out with other believers in The Truth. Just like *ALL* cults that provide groups that allow you to indulge your separateness from the mainstream. 14. What exactly is the Enlightenment offered by Advaita? As best I can tell, Advaita is NOT just another self-help program that offers infinite incremental changes to yourself to make you a little bit more happy all the time. It is a full on 100% transformation of the way you see the universe and your role in it. But it is completely " ineffable " and the way to get it is also ineffable. Here is an illustration of ineffable: Say a young woman tells a little boy that she is " in love. " The boy asks her what that means, and how did she get it. She will explain in colorful language the process of falling in love (or she might even say, " it just happened " ), and in very colorful language what it feels like to be in love and how great it is. The boy, never having been in love, will probably say he sort of gets it, and it sure seems great. But he certainly does not now actually feel what she feels. Then a friend of the girls comes in and says she is in love too. So she explains it to the boy, and this next girl uses totally different colorful language, and again it all seems great, but yet again the boy doesn't actually feel what she feels. Then the two girls turn to each other and wonder -- are we feeling the same thing? The fact is they can never know! And that is what Enlightenment is like -- since no one can ever explain it, no one ever knows if they really got it or not, or if anyone else ever got it. And there are some things that seem to offer Enlightenment, but it just isn't clear. For example, lots of people say that " dissolving the ego " is the definition of Enlightenment. http://www.google.com/search?num=100 & hl=en & safe=off & pwst=1 & sa=X & oi=spell & resnum=\ 0 & ct=result & cd=1 & q=ego+death+enlightenment & spell=1 But believers in Advaita say you are " perfect " just as you are now, so there is no need to dissolve your ego: This is not about " giving up the search " or " transcending thought " or " dropping the ego " . No, this message is simpler than any of that: it's about life as it already is. http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/index.html Finally, there are MANY different possible meanings of Enlightenment, so the Advaita version must be something specific, yet ultimately indescribable. In religious use, enlightenment is most closely associated with South and East Asian religious experience, being used to translate words such as (in Buddhism) Bodhi or satori, or (in Hinduism) moksha. The concept does also have parallels in the Abrahamic religions (in the Kabbalah tradition in Judaism, in Christian mysticism, and in the Sufi tradition of Islam). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28concept%29 15. Once you have tasted the promise of Advaita Enlightenment, how can you stop trying to get it? Even though you didn't get it yet, you now " know " that there is a whole magical world out there, and your current life is just so small and meaningless. It isn't even " real " , everything you do isn't even real, your memories, beliefs and even your thoughts are not real at all, you just need to " get it " and then you will be free! How can you go back to your mundane life and just forget about Advaita? This feeling that there must be more, just at the verge of your knowing, will eat away at you forever. Think about it all the time. Read books. Meet gurus. Join a group. JOIN US. *** Cult Definitions *** Here are some definitions of Cults off the internet, there are plenty more. All that is really important is to notice that ALL cults have similarities, and Advaita shares MANY of these traits: 1. Cult roughly refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream, with a notably positive or negative popular perception. In common or populist usage, " cult " has a positive connotation for groups of art, music, writing, fiction, and fashion devotees, but a negative connotation for new religious, extreme political, questionable therapeutic, and pyramidal business groups. For this reason, most, if not all, non-fan groups that are called cults reject this label. A group's populist cult status begins as rumors of its novel belief system, its great devotions, its idiosyncratic practices, its perceived harmful or beneficial effects on members, or its perceived opposition to the interests of mainstream cultures and governments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult CHECK: Advaita = out of mainstream, great devotions, idiosyncratic practices, perceived benefits. 2. CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content & task=view & id=17 & Itemid=5 CHECK: Advaita = does have revered leaders, offers ALL those great rewards and a much more! 3. A group or doctrine with religious, philosophical or cultural identity sometimes viewed as a sect, often existent on the margins of society. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cult CHECK: Advaita = totally transcending society. BONUS Definition: New Age - New Age is a recent and developing belief system in North America encompassing thousands of autonomous (and sometime contradictory) beliefs, organizations, and events. Generally the New Age borrows its theology from pantheistic Eastern religions and its practices from 19th century Western occultism. The term " New Age " is used herein as an umbrella term to describe organizations which seem to exhibit one or more of the following beliefs: (1) All is one, all reality is part of the whole; (2) Everything is God and God is everything; (3) Man is God or a part of God; (4) Man never dies, but continues to live through reincarnation; (5) Man can create his own reality and/or values through transformed consciousness or altered states of consciousness. http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm CHECK: Advaita = 1. Yes, 2. Yes, 3. Yes, 4. Yes, 5. Yes. *** Enlightenment Gone Wrong *** Almost everyone who experiences Enlightenment describes it as the most wonderful experience ever. But there is a whole book by a woman who described it as a nightmare -- she thought she had gone out of her mind! It makes you wonder: how many other people think this completely different way to see yourself and the universe is actually a BAD thing? How many are sitting in mental institutions right now, diagnosed with an illness, but actually are " Enlightened " ? The book is called " Collision With the Infinite: A Life Beyond the Personal Self " by Suzanne Segal. I haven't read the book but apparently she got Enlightened spontaneously, hated it, suffered for 10 years, then died a painful death. Now that doesn't sound so great. Oh, and again we don't know if she got " real " enlightenment, or just " lost her ego " or whatever! Here are what a couple of reviewers have to say about her experience, and " enlightenment " in general: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1884997279/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_he\ lpful/002-8140000-6531229?ie=UTF8 & n=283155#customerReviews 1. Most accounts of enlightenment deal with it from the perspective of the blissful, exalted state it represents. Segal has given us a roadmap of the potential suffering that can arise when such transformations occur outside the traditional student teacher relationship. 2. OK, although I have found that most seekers are actually VERY DENSE and have very ingrained ideas about what satori, or salvation, or the enlightenment actually is, I am going to hope that my words above have penetrated and you will not pick up and read this book lightly. It is not interesting, amusing, entertaining, " a jolly good read " , funny, intriguing or anything else other than a book that will open your eyes to the potential of the UNREMITTING HORROR, repeat HORROR that spiritual awakening can be. Is that how you saw it when you started your quest? Didn't you hope for deep inner peace and some kind of personal transcendence? Well you are mistaken. The culmination of all your meditation and insight and all the rest is this: NOTHING. Limitless, eternal void. Although it has different flavours, depending on the author, all of the books that deal with non-dual consciousness tell you the same thing, and when you read them you are left with an intellectual choice. Are they right, and your ego is an illusion, or have they gone insane? There is no middle ground. Sitting on this side of the " enlightenment " I think that they are insane. Here is a guy who was " Enlightened " and nearly turned into a Zombie. Of course he is HIGHLY REVERED by believers in Advaita. Just look at how he " got it " so quickly... he is really special! http://www.kktanhp.com/.htm From the above description, one realizes that Ramana Maharshi had destroyed the ego and from thence onwards was constantly aware of his Self, the Spirit, which is also the Spirit and Self of every man. In other words he was enlightened in that half-hour of experience. While before the event he experienced an intense fear of death, but after that he had no fear of death for the rest of his life. This is because he was constantly with his deathless Self even though he was talking, acting or walking. This awakening would have taken many other yogis many lifetimes, but he accomplished it in half an hour without previous spiritual practice. This is unique and truly phenomenal. His character had changed. He was no more interested in those things that he previously valued. He felt that conventional life appeared unreal. This must have been a very difficult time for a boy who had no training in the spiritual path, and suddenly thrown into a realm of constant awareness of bliss. He also had to remain in the family and go to school as well. His family noticed this change in him. There was no more interest in his former relationship with friends and relatives. He went through his studies mechanically with his book opened, but the mind far away elsewhere. His dealings with people were meek and submissive: there was now no complaint or retaliation as before. He preferred to be alone to meditate and to be absorbed in the Self or Spirit, rather than to play with friends. Whatever food was given to him was consumed indifferently. Oh, and of course when he died " ...in many places all over India, there were independent reports of seeing a bright light rising into the sky. " Cool! I want to be special like that! Where do I sign up?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 : > Cool! I want to be special like that! Where do I sign up?! > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > You don't have to sign up anywhere. Just start by asking yourself:HOw can I get my rocks off on everyone I can think of in as few words as possible so I don't junk up the site with book-length posts like the one above? Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , " mikeerwilliams " <mikeerwilliams wrote: > > > *** Advaita *** > Advaita is one of a large number of teachings that offers " Spiritual > Enlightenment. " You could substitute almost any other teaching of > " Enlightenment " in the discussion below. > > > *** Is Advaita a Cult?? *** > Do you really want to believe there is something more than just this > mundane, misery-filled, earthly life, and then that's it? Or do you > really WANT to believe there is something more? Advaita offers that > Namaste, If you mean like the advaitin group on and Sankara worship, then it is a cult. It really goes no further than saguna........Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " mikeerwilliams " > <mikeerwilliams@> wrote: > > > > > > *** Advaita *** > > Advaita is one of a large number of teachings that offers " Spiritual > > Enlightenment. " You could substitute almost any other teaching of > > " Enlightenment " in the discussion below. > > > > > > *** Is Advaita a Cult?? *** > > Do you really want to believe there is something more than just this > > mundane, misery-filled, earthly life, and then that's it? Or do you > > really WANT to believe there is something more? Advaita offers that > > > > Namaste, > > If you mean like the advaitin group on and Sankara worship, then > it is a cult. It really goes no further than saguna........ oh for christ's sake guys... what the hell is not a cult? ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2007 Report Share Posted October 29, 2007 Nisargadatta , " .b bobji baba " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " mikeerwilliams " > > <mikeerwilliams@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > *** Advaita *** > > > Advaita is one of a large number of teachings that offers " Spiritual > > > Enlightenment. " You could substitute almost any other teaching of > > > " Enlightenment " in the discussion below. > > > > > > > > > *** Is Advaita a Cult?? *** > > > Do you really want to believe there is something more than just this > > > mundane, misery-filled, earthly life, and then that's it? Or do you > > > really WANT to believe there is something more? Advaita offers that > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > If you mean like the advaitin group on and Sankara worship, then > > it is a cult. It really goes no further than saguna........> > > > oh for christ's sake guys... > > what the hell is not a cult? > > .b b.b. > most excellent b.b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2007 Report Share Posted October 29, 2007 Nisargadatta , " mikeerwilliams " <mikeerwilliams wrote: > > > *** Advaita *** > Advaita is one of a large number of teachings that offers " Spiritual > Enlightenment. " You could substitute almost any other teaching of > " Enlightenment " in the discussion below. > > > *** Is Advaita a Cult?? *** > Do you really want to believe there is something more than just this > mundane, misery-filled, earthly life, and then that's it? Or do you > really WANT to believe there is something more? Advaita offers that > for which we have all been seeking: Enlightenment, Heaven on Earth, > the One True Way, Freedom from all suffering, and Oneness with God. > But is it just another Cult? Is it Brainwashing? Are its believers > Delusional or suffering from Psychosis? Is it just another religion? > There are zillions of people and zillions of groups who claim to have > " The Answer " to all your problems. Advaita is one of those teachings. > The people who " believe " in Advaita and claim that it has changed > their lives for the better say MANY of the EXACT same things that Cult > believers do. How can you ever know if THIS set of beliefs is finally > " The Answer " ? > > > *** SUMMARY *** > Advaita can be seen as the ultimate self-help program because it > solves 100% of ALL of your problems. That is because you actually > transcend this life, there is no " you " any more, you are one with > everyone and everything in the universe. You now realize your " true > natural state, " you " awaken from the dream " which was the entire life > you had lived up until this moment. You are now " One with God " (you > and everything else IS God, you just didn't know it before Advaita), > you reach " Nirvana " , " The Real Truth " , " Constant Bliss " , " Innate > Happiness " , " True Freedom " , etc. This is truly the answer to all your > problems. Who wouldn't want all that?! > > To achieve this, proponents often study ancient, obscure spiritual or > semi-religious documents, usually with guidance of a Guru, ideally > from India. What you have to get is " ineffable " -- it can never > actually be explained, it must be experienced. But once you experience > it you will never want to (or even be able to?) go back. Many cool > Eastern-sounding paradoxes abound: You must search for it, but you > can't get it until you stop searching for it. > > You realize that there is no such thing as " time " any more. You > believe you are eternal, and this is just one of many of your lives. > If you are killed that is OK, that is just your body dying, that is > not the real you, you are Eternal. All of your thoughts and emotions > really don't exist, you realize there is no such thing as free choice, > you therefore have no responsibility. > > Proponents of Advaita say that if you call them a cult, then you just > don't get it. Just like all cults do. > > > > *** Reality, or Mental Disorder *** > Why do you believe what you believe? Most people don't even know WHAT > they believe, let alone the reasons WHY they believe those things. > SOME of the reasons WHY you believe what you believe are: > 1. an authority figure you trust told you (parents, news reporter, etc.) > 2. you are afraid not to (authoritarian religious belief) > 3. you really want to (there must be life after death, I don't want to > believe this is all there is) > 4. you engaged in groupthink (everyone else believes it, so you do as > well) > 5. you had an EXPERIENCE that convinced you something was true > > Note that the strongest beliefs we ever have are #5 -- things we > believe because we actually experienced them ourselves. And the only > way a person can get Enlightened in Advaita is by having a particular > mysterious experience. Then they " know " it is true. But how can they > share an EXPERIENCE with you? They can't! Therefore the *ONLY* way for > you to " know " what it is like to be Enlightened in Advaita is to have > the required experience yourself. But once you have the experience, > there's no turning back! > > It is 100% possible that believers of Advaita experience reality " the > way it really is " , and are forever changed for the better, and they > know something that the vast majority of humans have never known and > will never know. > > Also, it is 100% possible that the believers of Advaita have an > experience, and now they believe what they are experiencing, but they > are actually " Delusional " -- that is, they really, truly, totally > believe something that is in fact NOT TRUE. Obviously if you ask them, > they will say that is ridiculous, they " know " what is " true " and you > do not. > > You have now entered the realm of Epistemology -- the philosophical > study of what is TRUE and what is REALITY and what are BELIEFS. You > will find NO definitive answers here. > > SHOCKING Implication: It MUST be that EITHER people who are > Enlightened, or the rest of us, are DELUSIONAL. By classical medical > definitions, one group is mentally ill! And neither one can know which > is right. Ever. This may be a truly impossible problem. > > But look at the amazing implications of this! First off, is it > possible to have an experience that completely screws up your sense of > reality? Are there other cases in regular medicine where this is known > to be true? > * Something you experienced, so you " know " it is true, but it > actually is not true at all, but you really believe it is, since you > actually experienced it? What is true reality? If it makes you feel > better, is that wrong? What if is actually right? But what if it makes > you feel bad, does that make it wrong or not true? > * Some people suffer a break with reality when traumatized by an > experience (shell-shocked, PTSD, victim of a crime) and they don't > know what reality is any more. Dissociation is a symptom of PTSD, and > it sounds shockingly similar to Enlightenment: " Dissociation is > another " defense " that includes a variety of symptoms including > feelings of depersonalization and derealization, disconnection between > memory and affect so that the person is " in another world, " and in > extreme forms can involve apparent multiple personalities and acting > without any memory ( " losing time " ). " > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder#Symptoms > * And since you now feel really much better about yourself, you stick > with that belief, even if the old " you " tries to pull yourself back > into the old belief of reality. > * If you had an experience that completely changed your view of > reality FOR THE WORSE, you would think you were sick and had a mental > breakdown, and would work really hard to get your old view of reality > back. > * So we seem to have a measure of what reality is: if our view of > reality changes for the better, than that must be the REAL reality, > but if it changes for the worse, then that can't be real and we have > to be cured. > * That is why you rarely hear of anyone who gets Enlightened and then > goes and seeks a " cure " for this ailment. But there is one REALLY good > (actually bad) example: Suzanne Segal, discussed below. > > More implications: A Psychotic Break is a loss of contact with > reality, which is a mental disorder. > > MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS: You should be alarmed that there seems to be a > growing trend of people who are seeking out this " enlightenment " thing > -- they are actively seeking to have a mental breakdown on purpose! > Here is a person writing about such an experience in a relatively > mainstream publication: > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stacey-lawson/who-are-you- really_b_67506.html?view=screen > > BELIEVERS IN ENLIGHTENMENT: If you are an Advaita believer, even > though you don't really feel compelled to Enlighten anyone else, if > you speak the language of medical professionals to show them that YOU > have the correct view of reality, and they and everyone else is > actually suffering a mental illness known as psychosis. They will take > it from there -- it is the job and responsibility of medical > professionals to cure people of their illnesses, so if you can > demonstrate to them that they are mentally ill, and cure them, then > they will also cure others. Then it will become the medical mainstream > to fix the mental illness most people suffer from, and " cure " them by > Enlightening them. Finally the world will be filled with people who > are cured of mental illness. A world of people who are Enlightened/no > longer mentally ill would be a entirely different world than anything > else in history. > > Here is a scholarly work that compares Mysticism (such as > Enlightenment) and Psychosis. > " IT IS REFRESHING to read a paper that manages at once to be > interdisciplinary and intercultural in its range of reference, and > that also confronts a difficult and controversial question about how > we are to assess the similarities and differences between psychotic > and mystical experiences. Many psychiatrists have been skeptical about > whether there are any genuine differences... " > http://muse.jhu.edu/login? uri=/journals/philosophy_psychiatry_and_psychology/v009/9.4mcghee.html > > Here is the only guy I found who is a proponent of Enlightenment, yet > has any criticism of the potential psychosis of Enlightenment. But he > also makes fun of other teachers of Enlightenment, and you end up > having no idea what the heck is the " right kind " of Enlightenment at > all! http://www.infinitesmile.org/?p=172 > > Long paper comparing Psychosis and Mysticism. You will see that the > Enlightenment promised by Advaita isn't all that special after all... > The Relationship Between Schizophrenia & Mysticism: A Bibliographic Essay > http://sandra.stahlman.com/schizo.html > " As awareness increases to include more external and internal > information, a sense of self, a boundary between self and environment, > expands, seems to dissipate. The experience is one of unity with > information formerly defined as non-self. This expansion of the self, > often referred to as loss of self, may not be beneficial for someone > who does not have a " strong " sense of self to begin with. To these > people, a mystical experience can be frightening and confusing, to say > the least. " > > " Addressing the concepts " unifying " and " ego-transcending " seems vital > because the sorts of phrases turn up again and again in literature on > mysticism. F.C. Happold (1975) writes " unless the idea of non- duality > can be grasped the range of mystical experience is incomprehensible " > (p.71). " Duality " describes the manner in which we usually perceive > our self in relation to the environment. A division of " self " and > " other " occurs. " Ego " can be used to refer to that self which we are > aware of. What happens during a mystical experience has been described > as transcending this ego, or going through a process of temporary > " ego-loss. " As multiplicity ceases, the experience is of a mode of > consciousness often referred to as " the One. " " > > " Kenneth Wapnick (1980) explains that mystics tend to follow a very > structured, common process, culminating with the mystical experience. > He refers to an outline of this process created by Underhill in 1961, > in which the mystic moves from " an awakening of self " (p.323) to the > purgation of attachments to the social world and the self, resulting > in an experience of " a state of pure consciousness, in which the > individual experiences nothing " (p.324). " > > > *** Positives *** > Here are some POSITIVE things that Advaita proponents say, that makes > them sound like they are NOT a cult: > > 1. " Real " Advaita leads you to an understanding such that you do NOT > feel compelled to teach others at all. Therefore all those teachers, > Gurus, etc. are suspect and may very well be frauds. > 2. Those who experience Advaita claim to see everything in the world > as " unconditional love, " including themselves and other people. > Presumably they don't want to do anything `bad' to things they love, > including other people, animals, the earth, etc. > 3. There are proponents who say they have been " Enlightened " by the > teachings of Advaita, and they appear to live normal, productive lives > within the rest of society. They don't seem to do anything too extreme > like meditate on a mountaintop for the rest of their lives, or go kill > lots of people, or try to " convert " everyone around them. > 4. There are only a FEW people whose teachings may be considered > Advaita who are obviously out to make money (such as Eckhart Tolle). > 5. There do not seem to be any hard-core brainwashing techniques used > (google `Scientology Brainwashing' if you want to see ALL the > techniques). Mostly it is up to every individual to seek out this > knowledge and continue to seek it out even when difficult. > > > *** ALL CULTS *** > ALL cults share a large number of these properties. (Longer > definitions of Cults are below, or search the internet for more > definitions. They all say and do the same things.) > 1. They teach the " REAL " way to find God, bliss, enlightenment, > eternal happiness, etc. > 2. They solve ALL of your problems. > 3. They can't really explain it. > 4. Only a select few ever get it. > 5. There is a difficult journey to get it. > 6. To get it requires resolve, faith, seeking -- often times for many > years or decades, or a lifetime. > 7. Most followers got into it because of some pain in their life that > made them seek a solution to their pain, which makes them > committed/gullible. > 8. There are always leaders that teach or have the special method that > followers have to seek out. > 9. The leaders have special powers, and followers get a " feeling " just > being in their presence. > 10. They use lots of weird language and mumbo-jumbo. > 11. SEPARATENESS. Members are set apart from the rest of society > because they are special. <-- IMPORTANT! > 12. There are often cool mystical, spiritual, or religious ancient/old > teachings and sacred documents. > 13. Cult members " know " what is " true " and everyone else does not, so > they form groups to be able to interact with other who " know " the " truth. " > 14. The actual destination is debated or mysterious, and is often > never really clear. > 15. If you don't get it, that would be really bad. > > > *** NEGATIVE, Cult-like teachings of Advaita *** > Here are some NEGATIVE things that Advaita proponents say, that makes > them sound like they ARE a cult: > > 1. Look at the DEFINITION of a cult: they ALL offer the REAL solution > to your problems. The rewards for an Enlightened Advaita believer are > astonishing! Here are just some of the things you hear Advaita > believers saying you will get: > > Awakening from The Dream, The Ultimate Truth, God, Bliss, Heaven on > Earth, Unconditional Love, Liberation, True Freedom, The Highest > Happiness, Perfect Peace, Nirvana, Salvation, Metamorphosis, Universal > Law, Paradise, Dharma, Dhamma, Bodhi, Satori, Kensho, Prajna, Death of > the Ego, Perfect Sanity, An Illuminated Soul, Ancient Wisdom, Merging > of the Human and the Divine, Brilliant Infinite Self of Awakened > Consciousness, The Vastness of all Being, the Enormity of who We > Really Are, One with the Universe -- to name just a few. > > Everything that all ancient Eastern philosophies ever taught, and > arguably much of what Western religion teaches, is yours for free! > > 2. Very few self-help programs claim to ever be able to solve all of > your problems. Even New Age teachings often refer to the " spiritual > path " or your " journey towards Enlightenment " but they rarely if ever > claim any sort of final destination. Only cults and religions do: They > TELL you what you MUST do in order to be rewarded, and not punished. > Cults vaguely tell you that you must continue to follow their > teachings forever, because there is always something more, some higher > level to achieve, some mysterious secret yet to be revealed and > learned but maybe if you're really lucky you will be The One who > actually gets it. Many religions tells you that you must do certain > things here on this earth and struggle for an unachievable perfection > in this life, in order to get some reward or avoid some punishment > after death. > > But not Advaita! They tell you that you will receive all rewards, > right now. All problems are solved. Heaven on earth. In an instant. > Well, maybe longer. > > " When you see that that is what you are, then the very subtleness > expresses itself. That is the uncaused joy. Nisargadatta puts it > beautifully. He puts it in the negative. 'There is nothing wrong any > more.' " > http://sailorbob.net/home/books.html > > 3. All cults have some " difficult, " " incomprehensible, " or completely > " ineffable " concepts that only a very small, select-few people know > about or can explain. If you take The Landmark Forum they repeatedly > tell you that you will " get it " but they never, EVER tell you what > " IT " is. IT is inexplicable, apparently. All Cults use have concepts > that are somehow spiritual, they just can't be explained rationally, > and even trying to understand things rationally shows what problems > you have, and how much you need whatever they are offering. Why can't > you just " let go? " > > Advaita is arguably the most intense in this respect. The whole > problem is that you are not really YOU. YOU are actually something > else. So whenever you try to understand YOU, you is just getting in > the way. Only when you -- in some absolutely indescribable, > incommunicable manner " lets go " can the real YOU be set free, > liberated, enlightened. > > 4. This Advaita Enlightenment is not widely known, so only a select > few special people are seeking it, and even fewer ever " get it " . > Before you get it, you get to belong to a cool, small, underground > group of seekers-of-truth who study ancient manuscripts and wise old > spiritual guys from India who got Enlightenment spontaneously, so they > are really special. > > 5. Getting Advaita Enlightenment is also described as a paradox: It is > actually staring you in the face right now, all you have to do is see > it. But almost no one in history ever has. So getting it is really > hard, but once you get it (often times after decades of trying) you > will see how easy it was to have gotten it. The struggle and the fight > to get it is necessary, but you only get it when you stop struggling > and fighting. > > 6. Getting Advaita Enlightenment is sometimes (not always) described > as requiring great discipline and resolve. Which sounds a lot like > religious faith, or faith in the teachings of a cult leader. > > Andrew Cohen - Embracing Heaven & Earth, Page 23: > To succeed, we must be convinced beyond any doubt from our own > experience that Liberation is a living possibility, that it is real. > But from that moment on, whether that which was directly experienced > in the spiritual revelation is apparent or not, we must choose to be > free in every moment no matter what. That's when we become true > spiritual warriors. That's when we have finally become serious about > attaining victory over ignorance in this life. > > 7. Like any self help program or group you can join that promised to > help you solve your problems, Advaita offers to solve ALL your > problems. And everyone who gets Advaita Enlightenment describes it in > incredibly colorful language, often in flowery poetry, and almost > always as an amazingly awesome, reality-changing experience for the > better. Now imagine you have some pain in your life, and someone comes > by and offers you all of this peace, love, happiness, eternal bliss. > Why wouldn't you spend the rest of your life trying to find Heaven on > Earth? I know damn well from personal experience that if you try to > sell this to people who are HAPPY with their lives, they will think > you are nuts. So therefore in my experience, the ONLY people who seek > out Advaita are those who are in pain, weak, gullible, open to their > teachings, etc. If you need to believe there is something more to this > life, Advaita offers all the answers, the Real Truth. > > 8. Advaita teaches that anyone can get Enlightenment right here, right > now, nothing special is required, you don't have to buy anything, > follow some teacher, or even do anything like meditate. And Advaita > teaches the ultimate Egalitarianism -- you aren't really you, you are > just part of all the universe, so the thought that any person is more > or less than any other is nonsensical. > > Well, sometimes they say it really helps to learn from someone who is > already Enlightened, and is a master at teaching, known as a Guru or > Sage or something. Uh oh! In fact there is overwhelming praise for > their master teachers, they are revered as important historical > figures and spiritual leaders, and they have followers and some > Advaita students stridently argue their Guru is better than other > Gurus. And ANYONE who got Enlightenment *spontaneously* is > extra-revered! But people who get Enlightened by studying under one > of the special, well-known Gurus can and often do go on to become > teachers themselves. Then they set up a cool thing called a " Lineage " > which presumably shows how good/special they are because they are a > teacher descended from one of these revered masters. > http://www.gangaji.org/satsang/library/lineage.asp > http://nisargadatta.net/Navnath_Sampradaya.html > http://www.ex-premie.org/video/pages/lineage.html > http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0097c.htm > http://www.advaita.org.uk/teachers/lineages.htm > > Also there is a really strong feeling that these revered, wise, > mystical ancient old Indian dudes must know something the rest of us > don't know. They really figured out the mystery of life. Wouldn't it > be cool if you could know what they knew? How could those mystical old > guys be just some sort of cult? No way. They must know something > really special. Magical. Spiritual. Mystical. God-like. > > > 9. There are many stories about how people tried to get Enlightenment > on their own for a really long time, but when they finally met with > their Guru they " felt " a special " presence " and shortly thereafter > their lifelong quest for Enlightenment was over! > > 10. Advaita is an ancient Hindu teaching. So modern Western > practitioners can -- and do -- use really cool kick-ass Sanskrit words > like Atman, Brahman, Prasthanatrayi, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, and > Brahma Sutras. And there are cool words like Non-Dualism, Delusion, > Extraordinary Ordinariness, and the word Advaita itself. Now you get > to make up cool sentences like this one I found on the net: > > " a. Brahman alone is real b. The world is unreal c. The world is > Brahman. This is an ancient quote from the Upanishads which was > echoed by Shankara. Appearances are only Brahman, short and sweet. " > > How do you like me now!! > > > 11. SEPARATENESS -- Here we get into the culmination of a lot of > things that Cults do, and that Advaita does: separates people from the > mainstream. And yet another paradox: Advaita claims that when you get > their brand of Enlightenment, you will become one with all, but at the > same time you know damn well that very few other people actually are > Enlightened. So even though you now know we are all totally the same > thing, you are somehow different. Special. And get this: you now have > a cool new language to use -- JUST LIKE ALL CULTS DO, so when you talk > to people about what Advaita is and what happened to you, it will be > all cool sounding yet incomprehensible to them -- setting you APART > from the mainstream, just like ALL cults do. AND you have really cool > sounding concepts, but you really can't explain them to people, just > like ALL cults do. AND you know some sort of Ultimate Truth about The > Way Things Really Are -- just like ALL cult members ALWAYS say. The > only way for people to understand you is to join in, to get > Enlightened themselves, just like ALL cults. Otherwise, all those > people from your old life are now not as good as you because you know > what is real and they don't. You are now separate from the mainstream. > > But that is totally OK, you know skeptics just say these things, and > that is fine. You *KNOW* what the truth *REALLY* is, and those OTHER > people are fine just the way they are. You aren't out to convert > anybody. You KNOW what the truth is, you are perfectly content at all > times, including when people tell you that you are bonkers. You know. > They don't. You are special. You are different. Just like ALL other > cult members. > > > 12. There are ancient Advaita teachings, written in Sanskrit. They are > extremely sacred, opaque, and revered. Isn't it cool to be studying > some ancient mysterious wisdom that only a few people ever actually > " get " making them super-happy all the time? Dude, cool. > > > 13. Enlightened people see almost everyone else as not-Enlightened > (or at best all other people are Enlightened they just don't know it > yet.) Therefore Enlightened people form groups of other > similarly-Enlightened people to interact with. How hard it must be to > talk to all those other people who " don't get it " and are living a > " delusion " and are " still dreaming " . We Advaita believers know what is > true, and we have our separate concepts and language. It is just > easier to hang out with other believers in The Truth. Just like *ALL* > cults that provide groups that allow you to indulge your separateness > from the mainstream. > > > 14. What exactly is the Enlightenment offered by Advaita? As best I > can tell, Advaita is NOT just another self-help program that offers > infinite incremental changes to yourself to make you a little bit more > happy all the time. It is a full on 100% transformation of the way you > see the universe and your role in it. > > But it is completely " ineffable " and the way to get it is also > ineffable. Here is an illustration of ineffable: > Say a young woman tells a little boy that she is " in love. " The boy > asks her what that means, and how did she get it. She will explain in > colorful language the process of falling in love (or she might even > say, " it just happened " ), and in very colorful language what it feels > like to be in love and how great it is. The boy, never having been in > love, will probably say he sort of gets it, and it sure seems great. > But he certainly does not now actually feel what she feels. Then a > friend of the girls comes in and says she is in love too. So she > explains it to the boy, and this next girl uses totally different > colorful language, and again it all seems great, but yet again the boy > doesn't actually feel what she feels. Then the two girls turn to each > other and wonder -- are we feeling the same thing? The fact is they > can never know! > > And that is what Enlightenment is like -- since no one can ever > explain it, no one ever knows if they really got it or not, or if > anyone else ever got it. > > And there are some things that seem to offer Enlightenment, but it > just isn't clear. For example, lots of people say that " dissolving the > ego " is the definition of Enlightenment. > http://www.google.com/search? num=100 & hl=en & safe=off & pwst=1 & sa=X & oi=spell & resnum=0 & ct=result & cd=1 & q= ego+death+enlightenment & spell=1 > > But believers in Advaita say you are " perfect " just as you are now, so > there is no need to dissolve your ego: > > This is not about " giving up the search " or " transcending thought " or > " dropping the ego " . No, this message is simpler than any of that: it's > about life as it already is. > http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/index.html > > Finally, there are MANY different possible meanings of Enlightenment, > so the Advaita version must be something specific, yet ultimately > indescribable. > > In religious use, enlightenment is most closely associated with South > and East Asian religious experience, being used to translate words > such as (in Buddhism) Bodhi or satori, or (in Hinduism) moksha. The > concept does also have parallels in the Abrahamic religions (in the > Kabbalah tradition in Judaism, in Christian mysticism, and in the Sufi > tradition of Islam). > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28concept%29 > > > 15. Once you have tasted the promise of Advaita Enlightenment, how can > you stop trying to get it? Even though you didn't get it yet, you now > " know " that there is a whole magical world out there, and your current > life is just so small and meaningless. It isn't even " real " , > everything you do isn't even real, your memories, beliefs and even > your thoughts are not real at all, you just need to " get it " and then > you will be free! How can you go back to your mundane life and just > forget about Advaita? This feeling that there must be more, just at > the verge of your knowing, will eat away at you forever. Think about > it all the time. Read books. Meet gurus. Join a group. JOIN US. > > > > > *** Cult Definitions *** > Here are some definitions of Cults off the internet, there are plenty > more. All that is really important is to notice that ALL cults have > similarities, and Advaita shares MANY of these traits: > > 1. Cult roughly refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs > or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the > mainstream, with a notably positive or negative popular perception. In > common or populist usage, " cult " has a positive connotation for groups > of art, music, writing, fiction, and fashion devotees, but a negative > connotation for new religious, extreme political, questionable > therapeutic, and pyramidal business groups. For this reason, most, if > not all, non-fan groups that are called cults reject this label. A > group's populist cult status begins as rumors of its novel belief > system, its great devotions, its idiosyncratic practices, its > perceived harmful or beneficial effects on members, or its perceived > opposition to the interests of mainstream cultures and governments. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult > CHECK: Advaita = out of mainstream, great devotions, idiosyncratic > practices, perceived benefits. > > 2. CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership > structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the > person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to > God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to > Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques > to gain control and keep their members. > http://www.culthelp.info/index.php? option=com_content & task=view & id=17 & Itemid=5 > CHECK: Advaita = does have revered leaders, offers ALL those great > rewards and a much more! > > 3. A group or doctrine with religious, philosophical or cultural > identity sometimes viewed as a sect, often existent on the margins of > society. > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cult > CHECK: Advaita = totally transcending society. > > BONUS Definition: > New Age - New Age is a recent and developing belief system in North > America encompassing thousands of autonomous (and sometime > contradictory) beliefs, organizations, and events. Generally the New > Age borrows its theology from pantheistic Eastern religions and its > practices from 19th century Western occultism. The term " New Age " is > used herein as an umbrella term to describe organizations which seem > to exhibit one or more of the following beliefs: (1) All is one, all > reality is part of the whole; (2) Everything is God and God is > everything; (3) Man is God or a part of God; (4) Man never dies, but > continues to live through reincarnation; (5) Man can create his own > reality and/or values through transformed consciousness or altered > states of consciousness. > http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm > CHECK: Advaita = 1. Yes, 2. Yes, 3. Yes, 4. Yes, 5. Yes. > > > > *** Enlightenment Gone Wrong *** > Almost everyone who experiences Enlightenment describes it as the most > wonderful experience ever. But there is a whole book by a woman who > described it as a nightmare -- she thought she had gone out of her > mind! It makes you wonder: how many other people think this completely > different way to see yourself and the universe is actually a BAD > thing? How many are sitting in mental institutions right now, > diagnosed with an illness, but actually are " Enlightened " ? > > The book is called " Collision With the Infinite: A Life Beyond the > Personal Self " by Suzanne Segal. I haven't read the book but > apparently she got Enlightened spontaneously, hated it, suffered for > 10 years, then died a painful death. Now that doesn't sound so great. > > Oh, and again we don't know if she got " real " enlightenment, or just > " lost her ego " or whatever! > > Here are what a couple of reviewers have to say about her experience, > and " enlightenment " in general: > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer- reviews/1884997279/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful/002-8140000-6531229? ie=UTF8 & n=283155#customerReviews > > 1. > Most accounts of enlightenment deal with it from the perspective of > the blissful, exalted state it represents. Segal has given us a > roadmap of the potential suffering that can arise when such > transformations occur outside the traditional student teacher > relationship. > > 2. > OK, although I have found that most seekers are actually VERY DENSE > and have very ingrained ideas about what satori, or salvation, or the > enlightenment actually is, I am going to hope that my words above have > penetrated and you will not pick up and read this book lightly. It is > not interesting, amusing, entertaining, " a jolly good read " , funny, > intriguing or anything else other than a book that will open your eyes > to the potential of the UNREMITTING HORROR, repeat HORROR that > spiritual awakening can be. Is that how you saw it when you started > your quest? Didn't you hope for deep inner peace and some kind of > personal transcendence? Well you are mistaken. The culmination of all > your meditation and insight and all the rest is this: NOTHING. > Limitless, eternal void. > > Although it has different flavours, depending on the author, all of > the books that deal with non-dual consciousness tell you the same > thing, and when you read them you are left with an intellectual > choice. Are they right, and your ego is an illusion, or have they gone > insane? There is no middle ground. > > Sitting on this side of the " enlightenment " I think that they are insane. > > > > Here is a guy who was " Enlightened " and nearly turned into a Zombie. > Of course he is HIGHLY REVERED by believers in Advaita. Just look at > how he " got it " so quickly... he is really special! > http://www.kktanhp.com/.htm > > From the above description, one realizes that Ramana Maharshi had > destroyed the ego and from thence onwards was constantly aware of his > Self, the Spirit, which is also the Spirit and Self of every man. In > other words he was enlightened in that half-hour of experience. While > before the event he experienced an intense fear of death, but after > that he had no fear of death for the rest of his life. This is because > he was constantly with his deathless Self even though he was talking, > acting or walking. This awakening would have taken many other yogis > many lifetimes, but he accomplished it in half an hour without > previous spiritual practice. This is unique and truly phenomenal. > > His character had changed. He was no more interested in those things > that he previously valued. He felt that conventional life appeared > unreal. This must have been a very difficult time for a boy who had no > training in the spiritual path, and suddenly thrown into a realm of > constant awareness of bliss. He also had to remain in the family and > go to school as well. His family noticed this change in him. There was > no more interest in his former relationship with friends and > relatives. He went through his studies mechanically with his book > opened, but the mind far away elsewhere. His dealings with people were > meek and submissive: there was now no complaint or retaliation as > before. He preferred to be alone to meditate and to be absorbed in the > Self or Spirit, rather than to play with friends. Whatever food was > given to him was consumed indifferently. > > > Oh, and of course when he died " ...in many places all over India, > there were independent reports of seeing a bright light rising into > the sky. " > Cool! I want to be special like that! Where do I sign up?! > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ there are indeed many many cults around " enlightenment " ..... means....around just the natural state of...being... Marc Ps: indeed....with the " natural state of being " ....one can make less business......lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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