Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 I think it is not a coincidence that to so many the experience of enlightenment happened in the suicidal, death-related thoughts. I think " survival instincts* are the most basic bondage that exists. And, as I see it Enlightenment, Freedom, Liberation basically means going beyond the survival instincts. Surrender is basically the letting go of the survival instincts. As I see it, all [mental] pain and suffering, is ultimately linked to the survival instincts - these desire to *exist* and after letting go that desire, the freedom is felt for the first time. Moreover, this letting go of survival instincts needs to be really genuine and not a just a " trick " or " shortcut " to achieve the ultimate goal. That is the reason, that while many long time spiritual seekers in spite of many attempts of pretended " surrender " - some seemingly non- spiritual people experience amazing Clarity and Freedom in the face of Death. Further, I think the basic approach, which is pretty much used world over and across the culture, and, which is called " Wake Up " - is wrong and misleading. Because, only one which can hear, interpret " wake up " and can attempt to " wake up " is the 'mind', the 'ego' and by further 'waking it up'; the basic problem is only intensified. In order for the clarity to shine, the survival, me-centric 'mind' needs to 'sleep' [, if not die,] and not " wake up " . The Truth is to found by its returning to THE SOURCE - to the place where I " came from " and it is not a destination that it can reach forward. And, it can RETURN to the source by ceasing to exist... or, by at least Sleeping! Therefore, Gorakh is right when he says: Die O Yogi Die And, it is no surprise that Ramana experienced *reality* amidst of thoughts of impending death and Tolle experienced it amidst suicidal thoughts. It is also therefore no surprise that nonduality calls Deep Dreamless Sleep, the purest state - and, you reach there by putting that which has *woken up* to *sleep* and not by " waking it up " even Further! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 I think it is not a coincidence that to so many, the experience of enlightenment, happened amidst suicidal or death-related thoughts. I think " survival instincts* are the most basic bondage that exists and, Enlightenment, Freedom, Liberation Means going beyond the survival instincts. Surrender is basically letting go of the survival instincts. As I see it, all [mental] pain and suffering, is ultimately linked to the survival instincts - the desire to *exist* and only after letting go of that desire, the freedom is felt for the first time. Moreover, this letting go of the survival instincts needs to be real and genuine and can not be used as a " trick " or " shortcut " to achieve the ultimate goal. For that reason alone, while many long time spiritual seekers, might fail to experience it in spite of many attempts of pretended " surrender " - some seemingly non- spiritual people can experience amazing Clarity and Freedom in the face of Death. The basic thing is the end of survival Instincts [, if only for the time being,] and nothing else. When Death is no longer opposed - nothing else is! When death is not *feared* - nothing else is - and, the *bondage* breaks; because, the survival instinct is the only bondage, there is! And, survival instinct alone is in the root of all [mental] pain and suffering. Further, I think that the approach, which is pretty much used world over, and, across the culture, and, which is called " Wake Up " - is wrong and misleading. Only one which can hear, interpret such a call to " wake up " and can attempt to " wake up " is the 'mind', the 'ego' and by further 'waking it up'; the basic problem is only intensified. In order for the clarity to shine, the survival, me-centric 'mind' needs to 'sleep' [, if not die,] and not " wake up " . The Truth is to found by the mind returning to its SOURCE - to the place where it " came from " . And, it can RETURN to the source by ceasing to exist... or, by at least Sleeping! Therefore, Gorakh is right when he says: Die O Yogi Die And, it is no surprise that Ramana experienced *reality* amidst of thoughts of impending death and Tolle experienced it amidst suicidal thoughts. It is also, therefore, no surprise that nonduality calls Deep Dreamless Sleep, the purest state. One can reach there by putting that which has *woken up* to *sleep* and not by " waking it up " even Further! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Greetings It is a very nice post. i will say something about certain parts in between your lines. In Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming wrote: > > I think it is not a coincidence that to > so many the experience of enlightenment > happened in the suicidal, death-related > thoughts. I think " survival instincts* > are the most basic bondage that exists. > And, as I see it Enlightenment, > Freedom, Liberation basically means > going beyond the survival instincts. > Surrender is basically the letting go > of the survival instincts. When one is about to attempt suicide his " survival instinct " is al its lowest ebb. if i am spiritually mature and attempted suicide enlightenment might happen as with Toll. > > As I see it, all [mental] pain and > suffering, is ultimately linked to the > survival instincts - these desire to > *exist* and after letting go that >desire, the freedom is felt for the > first time. All suffering is related to the deep seeted conviction that " i exist " . This " i exist " is not only me, but it is me and all its relarionships with anything. in other words " i exist " is the whole of my experience. The survival instinct -you mentioned- only appears when i have lost all my relationships with anything, except " my physical body " -my back is to the wall all alone by myself there are no others and relationships. i do not feel the survival instinct when my friend dies. >Moreover, this letting go > of survival instincts needs to be > really genuine and not a just a " trick " > or " shortcut " to achieve the ultimate > goal. That is the reason, that while > many long time spiritual seekers in > spite of many attempts of pretended > " surrender " - some seemingly non- > spiritual people experience amazing > Clarity and Freedom in the face of Death. No need to face death to let go my whole experience of life. All i need is to ignore it -because it is totally fabricated and unreal and will give me nothing other than a pit in the ground. Understanding this fully; then we will look for what is Real. Ignoring and not allowing my whole experience of life to interfer with the search for rhe Real is the begining of enlightenment. As you said " the experience of enlightenment happens in suicide " what this man who is on the verge of death sees? he experiences the Unreality of all his mental fabrications.This man becomes now, fully responsible, he has seen what is unreal, this unreal is between him and the Real and it is his life's work -from now on- to dstroy and put aside and ignore what he had mentally created. He has not yet experience what is Real. But his stand is a great responsible leep towards the Real. mourad > > Further, I think the basic approach, > which is pretty much used world over > and across the culture, and, which is > called " Wake Up " - is wrong and > misleading. Because, only one which can > hear, interpret " wake up " and can > attempt to " wake up " is the 'mind', the > 'ego' and by further 'waking it up'; > the basic problem is only intensified. > > In order for the clarity to shine, the > survival, me-centric 'mind' needs to > 'sleep' [, if not die,] and not " wake > up " . The Truth is to found by its > returning to THE SOURCE - to the place > where I " came from " and it is not a > destination that it can reach forward. > And, it can RETURN to the source by > ceasing to exist... or, by at least > Sleeping! > > Therefore, Gorakh is right when he says: > > Die O Yogi Die > > And, it is no surprise that Ramana > experienced *reality* amidst of > thoughts of impending death and Tolle > experienced it amidst suicidal > thoughts. It is also therefore no > surprise that nonduality calls Deep > Dreamless Sleep, the purest state - > and, you reach there by putting that > which has *woken up* to *sleep* and not > by " waking it up " even Further! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 > > Tough it may be what comes in useful when I > > inadvertantly put muy hand on a hot surface, I'm > > not quite sure what is meant here by survival instinct. One can avoid putting hand on a hot surface through reason. I see survival instincts mostly as an *unexamined*, *unquestioned* emotion. To me, survival instinct is an unexamined will to exist - this will is not really about *physical body*, it is about the *emotional body*. And, I am beginning to see that perhaps, the emotional body and the ego are same. Or, that the very entity that feels like the emotional body to the body, feels like the ego to the mind. Or, ego is the shadow of the emotional body in the mind and vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Nisargadatta , " mourad_shamel " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > Greetings > > It is a very nice post. i will say something about certain parts > in between your lines. Thank you Mourad! I agree with most of your comments. Regards, ac > > > In Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming@> wrote: > > > > I think it is not a coincidence that to > > so many the experience of enlightenment > > happened in the suicidal, death-related > > thoughts. I think " survival instincts* > > are the most basic bondage that exists. > > And, as I see it Enlightenment, > > Freedom, Liberation basically means > > going beyond the survival instincts. > > Surrender is basically the letting go > > of the survival instincts. > > When one is about to attempt suicide his " survival instinct " > is al its lowest ebb. if i am spiritually mature and attempted > suicide enlightenment might happen as with Toll. > > > > As I see it, all [mental] pain and > > suffering, is ultimately linked to the > > survival instincts - these desire to > > *exist* and after letting go that > >desire, the freedom is felt for the > > first time. > > All suffering is related to the deep seeted conviction that > " i exist " . This " i exist " is not only me, but it is me and > all its relarionships with anything. in other words " i exist " > is the whole of my experience. > The survival instinct -you mentioned- only appears when i > have lost all my relationships with anything, except > " my physical body " -my back is to the wall all alone by myself > there are no others and relationships. i do not feel the > survival instinct when my friend dies. > > >Moreover, this letting go > > of survival instincts needs to be > > really genuine and not a just a " trick " > > or " shortcut " to achieve the ultimate > > goal. That is the reason, that while > > many long time spiritual seekers in > > spite of many attempts of pretended > > " surrender " - some seemingly non- > > spiritual people experience amazing > > Clarity and Freedom in the face of Death. > > No need to face death to let go my whole experience of life. > All i need is to ignore it -because it is totally fabricated > and unreal and will give me nothing other than a pit in the ground. > Understanding this fully; then we will look for what is Real. > Ignoring and not allowing my whole experience of life to interfer > with the search for rhe Real is the begining of enlightenment. > As you said " the experience of enlightenment happens in suicide " > what this man who is on the verge of death sees? he experiences > the Unreality of all his mental fabrications.This man > becomes now, fully responsible, he has seen what is unreal, this > unreal is between him and the Real and it is his life's > work -from now on- to dstroy and put aside and ignore what he had > mentally created. He has not yet experience what is Real. But his > stand is a great responsible leep towards the Real. > > mourad > > > > Further, I think the basic approach, > > which is pretty much used world over > > and across the culture, and, which is > > called " Wake Up " - is wrong and > > misleading. Because, only one which can > > hear, interpret " wake up " and can > > attempt to " wake up " is the 'mind', the > > 'ego' and by further 'waking it up'; > > the basic problem is only intensified. > > > > In order for the clarity to shine, the > > survival, me-centric 'mind' needs to > > 'sleep' [, if not die,] and not " wake > > up " . The Truth is to found by its > > returning to THE SOURCE - to the place > > where I " came from " and it is not a > > destination that it can reach forward. > > And, it can RETURN to the source by > > ceasing to exist... or, by at least > > Sleeping! > > > > Therefore, Gorakh is right when he says: > > > > Die O Yogi Die > > > > And, it is no surprise that Ramana > > experienced *reality* amidst of > > thoughts of impending death and Tolle > > experienced it amidst suicidal > > thoughts. It is also therefore no > > surprise that nonduality calls Deep > > Dreamless Sleep, the purest state - > > and, you reach there by putting that > > which has *woken up* to *sleep* and not > > by " waking it up " even Further! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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