Guest guest Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 John Wheeler " ... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book that describes your true nature as something beyond the dream. But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in the dream, and the mind trying to understand is also in the dream. It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize something outside the dream. Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the dream, the dreamer does not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something within the dream " " I am sure than many people can relate to reading the clearest books on nonduality and still feeling that the understanding has still eluded them. Perhaps this mechanism is at work " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > > > John Wheeler > > " ... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book that describes your true > nature as something beyond the dream. > > But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in the dream, and the mind > trying to understand is also in the dream. > It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize something outside the dream. > Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the dream, the dreamer does > not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. > So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something within the dream " > It doesn't need a dream. Read a book about hitting with a hammer on your thumb. And then take a hammer and do it. With one blow you will be outside the book and inside the understanding Werner > " I am sure than many people can relate to reading the clearest books on nonduality and still > feeling that the understanding has still eluded them. > Perhaps this mechanism is at work " . > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > John Wheeler > > > > " ... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book > that describes your true > > nature as something beyond the dream. > > > > But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in > the dream, and the mind > > trying to understand is also in the dream. > > It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize > something outside the dream. > > Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the > dream, the dreamer does > > not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. > > So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something > within the dream " > > > > > It doesn't need a dream. > > Read a book about hitting with a hammer on your thumb. > > And then take a hammer and do it. > > With one blow you will be outside the book and inside the > understanding > > Werner :-) The imaginary gap cannot be crossed with imaginary bridges. t > > > > " I am sure than many people can relate to reading the clearest > books on nonduality and still > > feeling that the understanding has still eluded them. > > Perhaps this mechanism is at work " . > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > John Wheeler > > > > > > " ... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book > > that describes your true > > > nature as something beyond the dream. > > > > > > But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in > > the dream, and the mind > > > trying to understand is also in the dream. > > > It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize > > something outside the dream. > > > Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the > > dream, the dreamer does > > > not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. > > > So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something > > within the dream " P: Isn't it the meta4 of comparing life with a dream a wonderful one? Yes, it's a great comparison. Nothing like comparison to illustrate, but a meta4 is not an analytical tool, it just make you feel good, gives you the feeling you understand, when you don't. No understanding of life can come by concluding that life is exactly like a dream, and that all that can be said about one can be said about the other. If I tell you that a sunset is just as intoxicating and colorful as an orange, cranberry, rum cocktail, you might find that true, but it'd be silly to expect clouds to have flavors, or aromas, or that tonight it will rain Bacardi. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 In a message dated 21/05/2008 11:45:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, pedsie6 writes: > > > John Wheeler> > > > > > "... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book > > that describes your true > > > nature as something beyond the dream.> > > > > > But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in > > the dream, and the mind > > > trying to understand is also in the dream. > > > It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize > > something outside the dream. > > > Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the > > dream, the dreamer does > > > not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. > > > So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something > > within the dream"P: Isn't it the meta4 of comparing life with a dream a wonderful one?Yes, it's a great comparison. Nothing like comparison toillustrate, but a meta4 is not an analytical tool, it just makeyou feel good, gives you the feeling you understand, whenyou don't. No understanding of life can come by concludingthat life is exactly like a dream, and that all that can be saidabout one can be said about the other. If I tell you that a sunset is just as intoxicating and colorfulas an orange, cranberry, rum cocktail, you might find thattrue, but it'd be silly to expect clouds to have flavors, oraromas, or that tonight it will rain Bacardi. ) ****If the dream metaphor is understood beyond the functioning of the analytical tools, the boundaries of the analytical tools will be clearly seen.Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hi,I think, i can put the same phylosophy in different words."If a book of forecast says that on 'X'th day there will be heavy rain, but if you squeeze the book, not even a drop of water falls from the book.So, reading book is not enough. One must practice and try to live the life in the way the book (on spirituality) emphasises. It does not mean that one must stop reading books or stop making any efforts to know there true nature. Everything srats from the mental level, and there is always an effort in the begining. So we have to move from Effort to the effortless. This is for those who are already reading the dorctrines of non-duality. It is not for the one who has not started reading books on spirituality. Else by reading post he/she may not start reading books!. How Did you came to know that mere reading is not enough? (i.e. reading is not sufficint to wake us from dream). By reading books or by listening to a saint.Sujal--- On Wed, 21/5/08, toombaru2006 <lastrain wrote:toombaru2006 <lastrain .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Wednesday, 21 May, 2008, 9:02 AM John Wheeler "... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book that describes your true nature as something beyond the dream. But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in the dream, and the mind trying to understand is also in the dream. It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize something outside the dream. Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the dream, the dreamer does not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something within the dreamI am sure than many people can relate to reading the clearest books on nonduality and still feeling that the understanding has still eluded them. Perhaps this mechanism is at work". Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > > > John Wheeler > > " ... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book that describes your true > nature as something beyond the dream. > > But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in the dream, and the mind > trying to understand is also in the dream. > It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize something outside the dream. > Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the dream, the dreamer does > not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. > So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something within the dream " > > " I am sure than many people can relate to reading the clearest books on nonduality and still > feeling that the understanding has still eluded them. > Perhaps this mechanism is at work " . reading books on nonduality....for most of people.....don't change anything in their life...... nonduality go much deeper than any books could go/explain etc.... people who live nonduality.....don't need any words to " communicate " ...... people who are open for nondual steps.....don't need any explanations in nice books..... Marc Ps: buying/selling words....books......is for people who don't know who they are.....and don't know to/from whom they are selling/buying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hello Marc,If you have "Dhyeya Shiddhi" i.e. you have complete comtrol of your mind and your mind is always pointed to only one thing i.e. SELF than only you do not need any books nor the Guru i.e. External Guru. When a person has reached this state of mind (by meditation or comtemplation or etc whatever you term it) than the Guru lets him free and the Disciple does not need to stay in the Ashram "under the care of a Guru". For such a student the purpose of Books on Non-duality and the Presence of a Physical Guru is over. So in the himalayan tradition, a Disciple having this Dhyeya Siddhi now achieve his Goal (of SELF Realisation) without external support. Inspiration comes from within and mind looses it's identity and merges into the SELF (tapas). Repeated Realisation of the SELF (with an effort) leads to the distrution of Desires (mind) and the ego. It leads to Sahaj Samadhi (Sahaj = Spontaneous). The disciple knew who he was, but could not stay in his SELF because he was still attached with the body and mind. By sitting in Meditation and repeated experiences of Samadhi, the state of Samadhi is prolonged from seconds to minutes to hours. A day comes when he sees the world as the SELF, in the waking state, after the meditation is over. Finally the effort ceases, and now he does not need to force his body to sit in meditation any more. He stays in the SELF. He is the SELF. But if you have not reached the matured state of "dhyeye siddhi" then you should continue to read books and physical presence of a Guru always helps.Your comments-reading books on nonduality.. ..for most of people......don' t change anything in their life......for those those people who read books but does not try to live the life the book emphasises. AUMSujal --- On Thu, 22/5/08, dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 wrote:dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 Re: .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Thursday, 22 May, 2008, 12:07 AMNisargadatta, "toombaru2006" <lastrain@.. .> wrote: > > > > John Wheeler > > "... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book that describes your true > nature as something beyond the dream. > > But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in the dream, and the mind > trying to understand is also in the dream. > It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize something outside the dream. > Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the dream, the dreamer does > not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. > So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something within the dream" > > "I am sure than many people can relate to reading the clearest books on nonduality and still > feeling that the understanding has still eluded them. > Perhaps this mechanism is at work". reading books on nonduality.. ..for most of people.....don' t change anything in their life...... nonduality go much deeper than any books could go/explain etc.... people who live nonduality.. ...don't need any words to "communicate" ...... people who are open for nondual steps.....don' t need any explanations in nice books..... Marc Ps: buying/selling words....books. .....is for people who don't know who they are.....and don't know to/from whom they are selling/buying Best Jokes, Best Friends, Best Food. Get all this and more on Best of . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hello Marc, If you have " Dhyeya Shiddhi " i.e. you have complete comtrol of your mind and your mind is always pointed to only one thing i.e. SELF than only you do not need any books nor the Guru i.e. External Guru. When a person has reached this state of mind (by meditation or comtemplation or etc whatever you term it) than the Guru lets him free and the Disciple does not need to stay in the Ashram " under the care of a Guru " . For such a student the purpose of Books on Non- duality and the Presence of a Physical Guru is over. So in the himalayan tradition, a Disciple having this Dhyeya Siddhi now achieve his Goal (of SELF Realisation) without external support. Inspiration comes from within and mind looses it's identity and merges into the SELF (tapas). Repeated Realisation of the SELF (with an effort) leads to the distrution of Desires (mind) and the ego. It leads to Sahaj Samadhi (Sahaj = Spontaneous). The disciple knew who he was, but could not stay in his SELF because he was still attached with the body and mind. By sitting in Meditation and repeated experiences of Samadhi, the state of Samadhi is prolonged from seconds to minutes to hours. A day comes when he sees the world as the SELF, in the waking state, after the meditation is over. Finally the effort ceases, and now he does not need to force his body to sit in meditation any more. He stays in the SELF. He is the SELF. But if you have not reached the matured state of " dhyeye siddhi " then you should continue to read books and physical presence of a Guru always helps. Your comments- reading books on nonduality.. ..for most of people......don' t change anything in their life...... for those those people who read books but does not try to live the life the book emphasises. AUM Sujal Hello Sujal, yes....true.... i think, that the one who is open for non-duality.....is also open for the right words/books and Guru...... means, this happen at same time...... whoever is open for spiritual advancement get in touch with the right people and words....at the right time... ...... it can't be forced.... ...... the one who is busy with spiritual (-business)....mainly for selfish reasons......don't get any benefit (happiness) ..... as long there is attachment to the imaginary ego..... as long one isn't ready to give up completely such illusion.... .....books and appearent " Gurus " can't help out Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hello Marc,I definately agree with you. The moment a person becomes self (ego) centered, SELF Realisation is no more his goal. Than how can the books / people talking about SELF Realisation help and motivate or influence him. Where there is ego there is no surrendrance and no faith.Scriptural knowledge is not the actual knowledge, but mere information.Complete surrenderance of sgo to the SELF is the real bhakti (devotion) - Sri Ramana Maharshi.I also like the quote below:He who has FAITH has everythingHe who lacks FAITH, lacks everythingIt is the FAITH in the name of the LORD that works wondersFAITH is LIFE, DOUBT is DEATH- Sri Ramakrishna ParamhansaAUMSujal--- On Thu, 22/5/08, dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 wrote:dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 Re: .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Thursday, 22 May, 2008, 2:01 AMHello Marc, If you have "Dhyeya Shiddhi" i.e. you have complete comtrol of your mind and your mind is always pointed to only one thing i.e. SELF than only you do not need any books nor the Guru i.e. External Guru. When a person has reached this state of mind (by meditation or comtemplation or etc whatever you term it) than the Guru lets him free and the Disciple does not need to stay in the Ashram "under the care of a Guru". For such a student the purpose of Books on Non- duality and the Presence of a Physical Guru is over. So in the himalayan tradition, a Disciple having this Dhyeya Siddhi now achieve his Goal (of SELF Realisation) without external support. Inspiration comes from within and mind looses it's identity and merges into the SELF (tapas). Repeated Realisation of the SELF (with an effort) leads to the distrution of Desires (mind) and the ego. It leads to Sahaj Samadhi (Sahaj = Spontaneous) . The disciple knew who he was, but could not stay in his SELF because he was still attached with the body and mind. By sitting in Meditation and repeated experiences of Samadhi, the state of Samadhi is prolonged from seconds to minutes to hours. A day comes when he sees the world as the SELF, in the waking state, after the meditation is over. Finally the effort ceases, and now he does not need to force his body to sit in meditation any more. He stays in the SELF. He is the SELF. But if you have not reached the matured state of "dhyeye siddhi" then you should continue to read books and physical presence of a Guru always helps. Your comments- reading books on nonduality.. ..for most of people...... don' t change anything in their life...... for those those people who read books but does not try to live the life the book emphasises. AUM Sujal Hello Sujal, yes....true. ... i think, that the one who is open for non-duality. ....is also open for the right words/books and Guru...... means, this happen at same time...... whoever is open for spiritual advancement get in touch with the right people and words....at the right time... ..... it can't be forced.... ..... the one who is busy with spiritual (-business). ...mainly for selfish reasons..... .don't get any benefit (happiness) .... as long there is attachment to the imaginary ego..... as long one isn't ready to give up completely such illusion.... ....books and appearent "Gurus" can't help out Marc Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hello Marc, I definately agree with you. The moment a person becomes self (ego) centered, SELF Realisation is no more his goal. Than how can the books / people talking about SELF Realisation help and motivate or influence him. Where there is ego there is no surrendrance and no faith. Scriptural knowledge is not the actual knowledge, but mere information. Complete surrenderance of sgo to the SELF is the real bhakti (devotion) - Sri Ramana Maharshi. I also like the quote below: He who has FAITH has everything He who lacks FAITH, lacks everything It is the FAITH in the name of the LORD that works wonders FAITH is LIFE, DOUBT is DEATH - Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa AUM Sujal Hello Sujal, yes.....no doubt about your words.... rare to read such words in here...... rare to read the name of Ramakrishna in here..... .....Ramakrishna who didn't even want to touch money.....and who seemed to have had always some doubt about ego-minded people..... who expressed/showed/communicated endless faith Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hi Marc,**....Ramakrishna who didn't even want to touch money...**Sri Ramakrishna could not touch the money. One day Naren (Swami Vivekananda) tested him (as Sri Ramakrishna used to say that you can always test your Guru). So he one day hide a coin below Sri Ramakrishna's Bed stayed silent in the room. When Sri Ramakrishna arrived and sat on the bed, he got a strong burning sensation ... like some strong current passing through him. He could not bare this pain and spontaneously sprung up from his bed. Devotees and disciples were in shock and no body knew what happened. Later on they chekced the bed and found a coin. This proved and convinced Naren that Sri Ramakrishna was so pure that he could not touch money. Later on when Sri Ramakrishna came to know that Naren was behind this incident, he was pleased and agreed with Naren. AUMSujal --- On Thu, 22/5/08, dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 wrote:dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 Re: .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Thursday, 22 May, 2008, 3:35 AM Hello Marc, I definately agree with you. The moment a person becomes self (ego) centered, SELF Realisation is no more his goal. Than how can the books / people talking about SELF Realisation help and motivate or influence him. Where there is ego there is no surrendrance and no faith. Scriptural knowledge is not the actual knowledge, but mere information. Complete surrenderance of sgo to the SELF is the real bhakti (devotion) - Sri Ramana Maharshi. I also like the quote below: He who has FAITH has everything He who lacks FAITH, lacks everything It is the FAITH in the name of the LORD that works wonders FAITH is LIFE, DOUBT is DEATH - Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa AUM Sujal Hello Sujal, yes.....no doubt about your words.... rare to read such words in here...... rare to read the name of Ramakrishna in here..... ....Ramakrishna who didn't even want to touch money.....and who seemed to have had always some doubt about ego-minded people...... who expressed/showed/ communicated endless faith Marc Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hi Marc, **....Ramakrishna who didn't even want to touch money...** Sri Ramakrishna could not touch the money. One day Naren (Swami Vivekananda) tested him (as Sri Ramakrishna used to say that you can always test your Guru). So he one day hide a coin below Sri Ramakrishna's Bed stayed silent in the room. When Sri Ramakrishna arrived and sat on the bed, he got a strong burning sensation ... like some strong current passing through him. He could not bare this pain and spontaneously sprung up from his bed. Devotees and disciples were in shock and no body knew what happened. Later on they chekced the bed and found a coin. This proved and convinced Naren that Sri Ramakrishna was so pure that he could not touch money. Later on when Sri Ramakrishna came to know that Naren was behind this incident, he was pleased and agreed with Naren. AUM Sujal difficult to compare Ramakrishna with other Gurus..... for the Ramakrishna fellowers who shared his presense at this his time.......maybe it was the right Guru....at the right time....etc.... nowadays it need Gurus who are flying all around the world....giving conferences and & or big hugs to people.....collecting plenty of money for whatever projects etc.... leaving a little sensation and tears for few lost souls.....here & there.... supported & protected by a whole team of heavy religious & spiritual people/stuff....who, each one of them....feel/expect to be closer to their beloved " Guruji " than the others.....and endless jealous about whoever is spending more than few minutes with their beloved Guru....etc.... wearing nice clothes..... ...... real Gurus....who are living in this your described states of Self- Realisation....officially aren't any " Gurus " ......means, are having just a normal life......like everybody else......don't see any reason to even talk about their well being.......or to be proud of ......etc... ...... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Hi Marc, > > **....Ramakrishna who didn't even want to touch money...** Ok, But he loved touching the bodies of young men - and not just their bodies Werner > > Sri Ramakrishna could not touch the money. One day Naren (Swami > Vivekananda) tested him (as Sri Ramakrishna used to say that you can > always test your Guru). So he one day hide a coin below Sri > Ramakrishna's Bed stayed silent in the room. When Sri Ramakrishna > arrived and sat on the bed, he got a strong burning sensation ... > like some strong current passing through him. He could not bare this > pain and spontaneously sprung up from his bed. Devotees and disciples > were in shock and no body knew what happened. Later on they chekced > the bed and found a coin. This proved and convinced Naren that Sri > Ramakrishna was so pure that he could not touch money. Later on when > Sri Ramakrishna came to know that Naren was behind this incident, he > was pleased and agreed with Naren. > > AUM > > Sujal > > > > > difficult to compare Ramakrishna with other Gurus..... > > for the Ramakrishna fellowers who shared his presense at this his > time.......maybe it was the right Guru....at the right time....etc.... > > nowadays it need Gurus who are flying all around the world....giving > conferences and & or big hugs to people.....collecting plenty of money > for whatever projects etc.... > > leaving a little sensation and tears for few lost > souls.....here & there.... > > supported & protected by a whole team of heavy religious & spiritual > people/stuff....who, each one of them....feel/expect to be closer to > their beloved " Guruji " than the others.....and endless jealous about > whoever is spending more than few minutes with their beloved > Guru....etc.... > > wearing nice clothes..... > > ..... > > real Gurus....who are living in this your described states of Self- > Realisation....officially aren't any " Gurus " ......means, are having > just a normal life......like everybody else......don't see any reason > to even talk about their well being.......or to be proud > of ......etc... > > ..... > > > Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > **....Ramakrishna who didn't even want to touch money...** > > > Ok, > > But he loved touching the bodies of young men - and not just their > bodies > > Werner .....Werner know something more about Ramakrishna?.... or is it only this your own story about him which is of your interest?.... Marc > > > > > > Sri Ramakrishna could not touch the money. One day Naren (Swami > > Vivekananda) tested him (as Sri Ramakrishna used to say that you > can > > always test your Guru). So he one day hide a coin below Sri > > Ramakrishna's Bed stayed silent in the room. When Sri Ramakrishna > > arrived and sat on the bed, he got a strong burning sensation ... > > like some strong current passing through him. He could not bare > this > > pain and spontaneously sprung up from his bed. Devotees and > disciples > > were in shock and no body knew what happened. Later on they chekced > > the bed and found a coin. This proved and convinced Naren that Sri > > Ramakrishna was so pure that he could not touch money. Later on > when > > Sri Ramakrishna came to know that Naren was behind this incident, > he > > was pleased and agreed with Naren. > > > > AUM > > > > Sujal > > > > > > > > > > difficult to compare Ramakrishna with other Gurus..... > > > > for the Ramakrishna fellowers who shared his presense at this his > > time.......maybe it was the right Guru....at the right > time....etc.... > > > > nowadays it need Gurus who are flying all around the > world....giving > > conferences and & or big hugs to people.....collecting plenty of > money > > for whatever projects etc.... > > > > leaving a little sensation and tears for few lost > > souls.....here & there.... > > > > supported & protected by a whole team of heavy religious & spiritual > > people/stuff....who, each one of them....feel/expect to be closer > to > > their beloved " Guruji " than the others.....and endless jealous > about > > whoever is spending more than few minutes with their beloved > > Guru....etc.... > > > > wearing nice clothes..... > > > > ..... > > > > real Gurus....who are living in this your described states of Self- > > Realisation....officially aren't any " Gurus " ......means, are having > > just a normal life......like everybody else......don't see any > reason > > to even talk about their well being.......or to be proud > > of ......etc... > > > > ..... > > > > > > Marc > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 "If a book of forecast says that on 'X'th day there will be heavy rain, but if you squeeze the book, not even a drop of water falls from the book. ***Ahhh, but you didn't squeeze it on the right day. THAT'S the problem. In a message dated 21/05/2008 10:40:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sujal_u writes: Hi,I think, i can put the same phylosophy in different words."If a book of forecast says that on 'X'th day there will be heavy rain, but if you squeeze the book, not even a drop of water falls from the book.So, reading book is not enough. One must practice and try to live the life in the way the book (on spirituality) emphasises. It does not mean that one must stop reading books or stop making any efforts to know there true nature. Everything srats from the mental level, and there is always an effort in the begining. So we have to move from Effort to the effortless. This is for those who are already reading the dorctrines of non-duality. It is not for the one who has not started reading books on spirituality. Else by reading post he/she may not start reading books!. How Did you came to know that mere reading is not enough? (i.e. reading is not sufficint to wake us from dream). By reading books or by listening to a saint.Sujal--- On Wed, 21/5/08, toombaru2006 <lastrain wrote: toombaru2006 <lastrain .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Wednesday, 21 May, 2008, 9:02 AM John Wheeler"... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book that describes your true nature as something beyond the dream.But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in the dream, and the mind trying to understand is also in the dream. It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize something outside the dream. Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the dream, the dreamer does not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something within the dream""I am sure than many people can relate to reading the clearest books on nonduality and still Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 ***Who is it who gains complete control over the mind? Would this be the imaginary thought person in the mind? Who is it who Realizes the Self with effort? The one whos effort blocks the Realization of Self? Once the individual has accomplished all of this, how could such a powerful identity ever be lost? Seems like such a powerful person should at least go on to write books or be a guru in an ashram or sumthin. In a message dated 22/05/2008 1:37:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sujal_u writes: Hello Marc,If you have "Dhyeya Shiddhi" i.e. you have complete comtrol of your mind and your mind is always pointed to only one thing i.e. SELF than only you do not need any books nor the Guru i.e. External Guru. When a person has reached this state of mind (by meditation or comtemplation or etc whatever you term it) than the Guru lets him free and the Disciple does not need to stay in the Ashram "under the care of a Guru". For such a student the purpose of Books on Non-duality and the Presence of a Physical Guru is over. So in the himalayan tradition, a Disciple having this Dhyeya Siddhi now achieve his Goal (of SELF Realisation) without external support. Inspiration comes from within and mind looses it's identity and merges into the SELF (tapas). Repeated Realisation of the SELF (with an effort) leads to the distrution of Desires (mind) and the ego. It leads to Sahaj Samadhi (Sahaj = Spontaneous). The disciple knew who he was, but could not stay in his SELF because he was still attached with the body and mind. By sitting in Meditation and repeated experiences of Samadhi, the state of Samadhi is prolonged from seconds to minutes to hours. A day comes when he sees the world as the SELF, in the waking state, after the meditation is over. Finally the effort ceases, and now he does not need to force his body to sit in meditation any more. He stays in the SELF. He is the SELF.But if you have not reached the matured state of "dhyeye siddhi" then you should continue to read books and physical presence of a Guru always helps.Your comments-reading books on nonduality.. ..for most of people......don' t change anything in their life......for those those people who read books but does not try to live the life the book emphasises. AUMSujal --- On Thu, 22/5/08, dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 wrote: dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 Re: .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Thursday, 22 May, 2008, 12:07 AM Nisargadatta, "toombaru2006" <lastrain@.. .> wrote:>> > > John Wheeler> > "... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book that describes your true > nature as something beyond the dream.> > But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in the dream, and the Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 ***So currency is inherently evil and gives off bad vibes to the "pure", or is it what one does with it that is 'pure' or 'unpure'? To react spontaneously to something that is neither good nor bad in and of itself, is the judgment that challenges that claim to purity. However, the story does not ring true, and so only speaks to the ignorance of the storteller. (Whoever originally wrote the story) In a message dated 22/05/2008 5:02:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sujal_u writes: Hi Marc,**....Ramakrishna who didn't even want to touch money...**Sri Ramakrishna could not touch the money. One day Naren (Swami Vivekananda) tested him (as Sri Ramakrishna used to say that you can always test your Guru). So he one day hide a coin below Sri Ramakrishna's Bed stayed silent in the room. When Sri Ramakrishna arrived and sat on the bed, he got a strong burning sensation ... like some strong current passing through him. He could not bare this pain and spontaneously sprung up from his bed. Devotees and disciples were in shock and no body knew what happened. Later on they chekced the bed and found a coin. This proved and convinced Naren that Sri Ramakrishna was so pure that he could not touch money. Later on when Sri Ramakrishna came to know that Naren was behind this incident, he was pleased and agreed with Naren. AUMSujal --- On Thu, 22/5/08, dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 wrote: dennis_travis33 <dennis_travis33 Re: .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Thursday, 22 May, 2008, 3:35 AM Hello Marc,I definately agree with you. The moment a person becomes self (ego) centered, SELF Realisation is no more his goal. Than how can the books / people talking about SELF Realisation help and motivate or influence him. Where there is ego there is no surrendrance and no faith.Scriptural knowledge is not the actual knowledge, but mere information.Complete surrenderance of sgo to the SELF is the real bhakti (devotion) - Sri Ramana Maharshi.I also like the quote below:He who has FAITH has everythingHe who lacks FAITH, lacks everythingIt is the FAITH in the name of the LORD that works wondersFAITH is LIFE, DOUBT is DEATH- Sri Ramakrishna ParamhansaAUMSujalHello Sujal,yes.....no doubt about your words....rare to read such words in here......rare to read the name of Ramakrishna in here.........Ramakrishna who didn't even want to touch money.....and who seemed to have had always some doubt about ego-minded people......who expressed/showed/ communicated endless faith Marc Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it. Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > ***Who is it who gains complete control over the mind? Would this be the > imaginary thought person in the mind? Who is it who Realizes the Self with > effort? The one whos effort blocks the Realization of Self? Once the individual > has accomplished all of this, how could such a powerful identity ever be lost? > Seems like such a powerful person should at least go on to write books or be a > guru in an ashram or sumthin. > > In this most mysterious of journeys there is one creature that you must avoid at all cost. The Seemslike. t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > ***So currency is inherently evil and gives off bad vibes to the " pure " , or > is it what one does with it that is 'pure' or 'unpure'? To react spontaneously > to something that is neither good nor bad in and of itself, is the judgment > that challenges that claim to purity. However, the story does not ring true, > and so only speaks to the ignorance of the storteller. (Whoever originally > wrote the story) > > > Yes....followers of the sages....create and expand fables about their beloved teachers. In another place far from here........some of my followers are making up stories about me as we speak. :-0 toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 In a message dated 22/05/2008 12:32:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lastrain writes: > > ***So currency is inherently evil and gives off bad vibes to the "pure", or > is it what one does with it that is 'pure' or 'unpure'? To react spontaneously > to something that is neither good nor bad in and of itself, is the judgment > that challenges that claim to purity. However, the story does not ring true, > and so only speaks to the ignorance of the storteller. (Whoever originally > wrote the story)> > > Yes....followers of the sages....create and expand fables about their beloved teachers.In another place far from here........some of my followers are making up stories about me as we speak.:-0toombaru ***Mayhaps they'll put together a book of fond fables, after you've passed on of course. They can call it 'Toom Tales'.Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > In a message dated 22/05/2008 12:32:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > lastrain writes: > > > > > ***So currency is inherently evil and gives off bad vibes to the " pure " , > or > > is it what one does with it that is 'pure' or 'unpure'? To react > spontaneously > > to something that is neither good nor bad in and of itself, is the > judgment > > that challenges that claim to purity. However, the story does not ring > true, > > and so only speaks to the ignorance of the storteller. (Whoever > originally > > wrote the story) > > > > > > > > > Yes....followers of the sages....create and expand fables about their > beloved teachers. > > In another place far from here........some of my followers are making up > stories about me > as we speak. > > > :-0 > > > toombaru > > > > ***Mayhaps they'll put together a book of fond fables, after you've passed > on of course. They can call it 'Toom Tales'. > Spare me... > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch " Cooking with > Tyler Florence " on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4 & ? NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Well, sure, but we were discussing rainmaking. In a message dated 5/22/2008 10:30:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sujal_u writes: Hi phil,There is only one time to awaken, and that time is now - Lord Buddha--- On Thu, 22/5/08, souldreamone <souldreamone wrote: souldreamone <souldreamoneRe: .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Thursday, 22 May, 2008, 11:06 AM "If a book of forecast says that on 'X'th day there will be heavy rain, but if you squeeze the book, not even a drop of water falls from the book. ***Ahhh, but you didn't squeeze it on the right day. THAT'S the problem. In a message dated 21/05/2008 10:40:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sujal_u writes: Hi,I think, i can put the same phylosophy in different words."If a book of forecast says that on 'X'th day there will be heavy rain, but if you squeeze the book, not even a drop of water falls from the book. Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Well, my comments were not about the merits of meditation. I have no issue with that as such, only the particular practices that were mentioned. I also have no issue with the value of the Awakening event to humanity, nor whether the 'Awakened' one engages or secludes himself. (I was being a bit sarcastic with the 'powerful person' comment in an attempt to point out there is no powerful person.) My issue is a more fundamental one, that has to do with the accepted idea that there ultimately is no person. Given this, what person is it who controls the mind, and who's mind is it if it is not the mind of the person trying to control it? Not only do we have one imaginary person, now it has become two; a controller and a controlled. Who is it who expends effort to Realize, and is it not effort of the imaginary individual that actually blocks the Realization of a Truth that is not hiding, but is rather hidden by this personal effort to sustain the volition of this imagined individual? In a message dated 5/22/2008 10:40:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sujal_u writes: hi Phil,You should read Guru Gita. It will explain you everything. I thought since you do not like the concept of meditation, you will ignore this post.Anyway, it is not necessary that a person after realisation should establish an ashram.Swami Vivekananda said"a yogi can sit in a cave in the himalayas, thousands of kilometers away from the mankind, create a spiritual thought, this thought influence the whole mankind, and the mankind is not even aware of who has created the thought."traditional scriptures say that it is not necessary that after realisation one should send his life for upliftment of the masses and society. even if he does so it's ok.after completing the graduation, it is left upto you to read the books or you can quit them, as you already have the degree.Also if you have this service as your goal you cannot achieve realisation.We always try to see action in inaction.. can we imagine a toughtless state, not even in a dream. "a wise man sees action in the inaction (of wordly minded men) and inaction in the action (of a realised saint) - Astavakra Gita.Same thing is also explained in Bhagawat Gita.When nothing exist than SELF, than who will teach whom.and if God orders a saint to come to a lower plane of the benefit of the society, then who can stop him. All powerful God is with him.AUMSujal--- On Thu, 22/5/08, souldreamone <souldreamone wrote: souldreamone <souldreamoneRe: Re: .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Thursday, 22 May, 2008, 11:28 AM ***Who is it who gains complete control over the mind? Would this be the imaginary thought person in the mind? Who is it who Realizes the Self with effort? The one whos effort blocks the Realization of Self? Once the individual has accomplished all of this, how could such a powerful identity ever be lost? Seems like such a powerful person should at least go on to write books or be a guru in an ashram or sumthin. In a message dated 22/05/2008 1:37:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sujal_u writes: Hello Marc,If you have "Dhyeya Shiddhi" i.e. you have complete comtrol of your mind and your mind is always pointed to only one thing i.e. SELF than only you do not need any books nor the Guru i.e. External Guru. When a person has reached this state of mind (by meditation or comtemplation or etc whatever you term it) than the Guru lets him free and the Disciple does not need to stay in the Ashram "under the care of a Guru". For such a student the purpose of Books on Non-duality and the Presence of a Physical Guru is over. So in the himalayan tradition, a Disciple having this Dhyeya Siddhi now achieve his Goal (of SELF Realisation) without external support. Inspiration comes from within and mind looses it's identity and merges into the SELF (tapas). Repeated Realisation of the SELF (with an effort) leads to the distrution of Desires (mind) and the ego. It leads to Sahaj Samadhi (Sahaj = Spontaneous) . The disciple knew who he was, but could not stay in his SELF because he was still attached with the body and mind. By sitting in Meditation and repeated experiences of Samadhi, the state of Samadhi is prolonged from seconds to minutes to hours. A day comes when he sees the world as the SELF, in the waking state, after the meditation is over. Finally the effort ceases, and now he does not need to force his body to sit in meditation any more. He stays in the SELF. He is the SELF.But if you have not reached the matured state of "dhyeye siddhi" then you should continue to read books and physical presence of a Guru always helps.Your comments-reading books on nonduality.. ..for most of people...... don' t change anything in their life......for those those people who read books but does not try to live the life the book emphasises. AUMSujal Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. 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Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Hi phil,There is only one time to awaken, and that time is now - Lord Buddha--- On Thu, 22/5/08, souldreamone <souldreamone wrote:souldreamone <souldreamoneRe: .....but i'm not the only one.......Nisargadatta Date: Thursday, 22 May, 2008, 11:06 AM "If a book of forecast says that on 'X'th day there will be heavy rain, but if you squeeze the book, not even a drop of water falls from the book. ***Ahhh, but you didn't squeeze it on the right day. THAT'S the problem. In a message dated 21/05/2008 10:40:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sujal_u writes:Hi,I think, i can put the same phylosophy in different words."If a book of forecast says that on 'X'th day there will be heavy rain, but if you squeeze the book, not even a drop of water falls from the book.So, reading book is not enough. One must practice and try to live the life in the way the book (on spirituality) emphasises. It does not mean that one must stop reading books or stop making any efforts to know there true nature. Everything srats from the mental level, and there is always an effort in the begining. So we have to move from Effort to the effortless. This is for those who are already reading the dorctrines of non-duality. It is not for the one who has not started reading books on spirituality. Else by reading post he/she may not start reading books!. How Did you came to know that mere reading is not enough? (i.e. reading is not sufficint to wake us from dream). By reading books or by listening to a saint.Sujal--- On Wed, 21/5/08, toombaru2006 <lastrain (AT) charter (DOT) net> wrote:toombaru2006 <lastrain (AT) charter (DOT) net> .....but i'm not the only one.......NisargadattaWednesday, 21 May, 2008, 9:02 AMJohn Wheeler"... imagine you are dreaming. You find a book in the dream, a book that describes your true nature as something beyond the dream.But the book itself is in the dream, and the act of reading is in the dream, and the mind trying to understand is also in the dream. It is almost impossible for the dream subject to visualize something outside the dream. Even if the book emphatically states that the answer is outside the dream, the dreamer does not (apparently) have any foothold outside the dream. So he continues to imagine that the book is pointing to something within the dream""I am sure than many people can relate to reading the clearest books on nonduality and still Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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