Guest guest Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Era " <mi_nok wrote: > > > When Ramana Maharshi says, " How can the 'I' eliminate itself, he is > indicating that the very effort to eliminate the 'I' becomes the > hindrance. In fact, the Sage of Arunachala often uses this theme to > point out that such an effort only amounts to the thief pretending to > be the policeman to capture itself. > > On the other hand, you point out that Sri Ramana says that " The > wrong 'I' is the obstruction. It has to be removed in order that the > true 'I' may not be hidden. " > > There is no contradiction. Sri Ramana is simply stating a fact. The > wrong 'I' is simply the wrong identification of the 'I " with the body. > > So what does one do? How does one remove the wrong `I'? The truth is > that one has no power to remove the wrong 'I'. One can make a sincere > effort, but it can only take one so far. Sri Ramana used to say that > there is only so much we can do. After a certain point, the higher > power itself takes over and does the rest. The 'I' does not remove > itself. It simply gets swallowed by the Heart and the nature and core > of reality as Bliss Supreme resting in its own nature is revealed > clearly. It is a Self-Revelation. Self-Bliss. The ancients called it > Sat-Chit-Ananda > > The more one struggles, the more one gets caught in the trap of the > mind. Just like Houdini knew how to relax to get out of locks and > bondage while under water, a devotee of great maturity does not > struggle but relaxes. The devotee with even greater maturity realizes that the attempt relax is merely another form of struggle. In surrendering one's life to the Lord of the > Heart, one becomes the Heart It Self. All searching is a self-centered desire to improve that which never existed. Only the conceptual mind could come up with an imaginary journey from the head to the heart....self vs Self....true vs false...... > > To not mind the mind, to not mind the 'I', to not judge this way or > that way is the way of a spiritually mature sage. That is a by-product of the understanding....not a method for its attainment. Sri Ramana taught > Paul Brunton to practice Sahaj Samadhi from the beginning. To simply > remain aware of the Grace that is ever present is the way. To be > completely natural in body and mind and be aware, just to be, is > enough. At this level of surrender, blessings pour forth from all > directions, and Self is Realized as our own nature without the least > of effort. Well.........except for the effort to surrender. > > Self is the state of effortlessness. Therefore, effort cannot fully > reveal it. Effort takes us only so far. The rest is up to the Guru. ......or God.........or grace.....or what ever else you want to name that which you simply cannot understand. t. > > Namaste and love to all > Harsha > > 197. Gul and Shirin Byramjee, two Parsi ladies of Ahmedabad, arrived > this day. They spoke at night to Maharshi: " Bhagavan! We have been > spiritually inclined from our childhood. We have read several books on > philosophy and are attracted by Vedanta. So we read the Upanishads, Yoga > Vasishta, Bhagavad Gita etc. We try to meditate, but there is no > progress in our meditation. We do not understand how to realise. Can you > kindly help us towards realisation?'' > > M.: How do you meditate? > > D.: I begin to ask myself " Who am I?'', eliminate body as not 'I', the > breath as not 'I', the mind as not 'I' and I am not able to proceed > further. > > M.: Well, that is so far as the intellect goes. Your process is only > intellectual. Indeed, all the scriptures mention the process only to > guide the seeker to know the Truth. The Truth cannot be directly pointed > out. Hence this intellectual process. You see, the one who eliminates > all the not I cannot eliminate the 'I'. To say 'I am not this' or 'I am > that' there must be the 'I'. This 'I' is only the ego or the > 'I'-thought. After the rising up of this 'I'-thought all other thoughts > arise. The 'I'-thought is therefore the root-thought. If the root is > pulled out all others are at the same time uprooted. Therefore seek the > root 'I', question yourself " Who am I?''; find out its source. Then all > these will vanish and the pure Self will remain ever. > > D.: How to do it? > > M.: The 'I' is always there - in deep sleep, in dream and in > wakefulness. The one in sleep is the same as that who now speaks. There > is always the feeling of 'I'. Otherwise do you deny your existence? You > do not. You say 'I am'. Find out who is. > > D.: Even so, I do not understand. 'I', you say, is the wrong 'I' now. > How to eliminate this wrong 'I'? > > M.: You need not eliminate the wrong 'I'. How can 'I' eliminate itself? > - All that you need do is to find out its origin and abide there. Your > efforts can extend only thus far. Then the Beyond will take care of > itself. You are helpless there. No effort can reach it. > > D.: If 'I' am always-here and now, why do I not feel so? > > M.: That is it. Why says it is not felt? Does the real 'I' say it or the > false 'I'? Examine it. You will find it as the wrong 'I'. The wrong 'I' > is the obstruction. It has to be removed in order that the true 'I' may > not be hidden. The feeling that I have not realised is the obstruction > to realisation. > In fact it is already realised; there is nothing more to be realised. > Otherwise, the realisation will be new; it has not existed so far, it > must take place hereafter. What is born will also die. If realisation be > not eternal it is not worth having. Therefore what we seek is not that > which must happen afresh. It is only that which is eternal but not now > known due to obstructions; it is that we seek. All that we need do is to > remove the obstruction. That which is eternal is not known to be so > because of ignorance. Ignorance is the obstruction. Get over this > ignorance and all will be well. > The ignorance is identical with the 'I'-thought. Find its source and it > will vanish. > The 'I'-thought is like a spirit which, although not palpable, rises up > automatically with the body, flourishes and disappears with it. The > body-consciousness is the wrong 'I'. Give up this body-consciousness. It > is done by seeking the source 'I'. The body does not say 'I am'. It is > you who say, 'I am the body!' Find out who this 'I' is. Seeking its > source it will vanish. > > D.: Then, will there be bliss? > > M.: Bliss is coeval with Being-Consciousness. All the arguments relating > to the eternal Being of that Bliss apply to Bliss also. Your nature is > Bliss. Ignorance is not hiding that Bliss. Remove the ignorance for > Bliss to be freed. > > D.: Should we not find out the ultimate reality of the world, individual > and God? > > M.: These are all conceptions of the 'I'. They arise only after the > advent of the 'I'-thought. Did you think of them in your deep sleep? You > existed in deep sleep and the same you are now speaking. If they be real > should they not be in your sleep also? They are only dependent upon the > 'I'-thought. Again does the world tell you 'I am the world'? Does the > body say 'I am body'? You say, " This is the world'', " this is body'' and > so on. So these are only your conceptions. Find out who you are and > there will be an end of all your doubts. > > D.: What becomes of the body after realisation? Does it exist or not? We > see realised beings acting like others. > > M.: This question need not arise now. Let it be asked after realisation, > if need be. As for the realised beings let them take care of themselves. > Why do you worry about them? > In fact, after realisation the body and all else will not appear > different from the Self. > > D.: Being always Being-Consciousness-Bliss, why does God place us in > difficulties? Why did He create us? > > M.: Does God come and tell you that He has placed you in difficulties? > It is you who say so. It is again the wrong 'I'. If that disappears > there will be no one to say that God created this or that. > That which is does not even say 'I am'. For, does any doubt rise 'I am > not'? > Only in such a case should one be reminding oneself 'I am a man'. One > does not. On the other hand, if a doubt arises whether he is a cow or a > buffalo he has to remind himself that he is not a cow, etc., but 'I am a > man'. This would never happen. Similarly with one's own existence and > realisation. > 23rd January, 1937 > > http://www.beezone.com/Ramana/ > > <http://www.beezone.com/Ramana/> Era > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Hi,In the beginning, one has to make mental efforts and use he intellect. But it cannot take us to the ultimate. So awareness helps. But to be aware of the source or Ego, our mind should be quiet, which can be acheived by mental effort. Once the platform is created, even the thought that i want moksha has to be dropped, but not before there are any thoughts other than the burning desire for liberation. Else, our progress will stop. After we begin to be aware that we are not mind or thoughts (for that we have to expereince the something or a part of us always sits back and watches everything.). Then meditation becomes effortless. There is no stress no mental chatter. Such a person prefers silience and speaks only when absolutely necessary.If you observe Sri Ramana's teachings, they are for advanced sadhakas, disciples. As they are said from the graveyard of Karma. Even physically we wont be active, as mind is at peace and demands nothing.thisis my personal interpretation. Sujal--- On Tue, 3/6/08, Era <mi_nok wrote:Era <mi_nok for d' noonehome ppl Re: Talks with Ramana MaharshiNisargadatta Date: Tuesday, 3 June, 2008, 3:56 PM When Ramana Maharshi says, "How can the 'I' eliminate itself, he is indicating that the very effort to eliminate the 'I' becomes the hindrance. In fact, the Sage of Arunachala often uses this theme to point out that such an effort only amounts to the thief pretending to be the policeman to capture itself. On the other hand, you point out that Sri Ramana says that "The wrong 'I' is the obstruction. It has to be removed in order that the true 'I' may not be hidden." There is no contradiction. Sri Ramana is simply stating a fact. The wrong 'I' is simply the wrong identification of the 'I" with the body. So what does one do? How does one remove the wrong `I'? The truth is that one has no power to remove the wrong 'I'. One can make a sincere effort, but it can only take one so far. Sri Ramana used to say that there is only so much we can do. After a certain point, the higher power itself takes over and does the rest. The 'I' does not remove itself. It simply gets swallowed by the Heart and the nature and core of reality as Bliss Supreme resting in its own nature is revealed clearly. It is a Self-Revelation. Self-Bliss. The ancients called it Sat-Chit-Ananda The more one struggles, the more one gets caught in the trap of the mind. Just like Houdini knew how to relax to get out of locks and bondage while under water, a devotee of great maturity does not struggle but relaxes.. In surrendering one's life to the Lord of the Heart, one becomes the Heart It Self. To not mind the mind, to not mind the 'I', to not judge this way or that way is the way of a spiritually mature sage. Sri Ramana taught Paul Brunton to practice Sahaj Samadhi from the beginning. To simply remain aware of the Grace that is ever present is the way. To be completely natural in body and mind and be aware, just to be, is enough. At this level of surrender, blessings pour forth from all directions, and Self is Realized as our own nature without the least of effort. Self is the state of effortlessness. Therefore, effort cannot fully reveal it. Effort takes us only so far. The rest is up to the Guru. Namaste and love to all Harsha 197. Gul and Shirin Byramjee, two Parsi ladies of Ahmedabad, arrived this day. They spoke at night to Maharshi: "Bhagavan! We have been spiritually inclined from our childhood. We have read several books on philosophy and are attracted by Vedanta. So we read the Upanishads, Yoga Vasishta, Bhagavad Gita etc. We try to meditate, but there is no progress in our meditation. We do not understand how to realise. Can you kindly help us towards realisation? '' M.: How do you meditate? D.: I begin to ask myself "Who am I?'', eliminate body as not 'I', the breath as not 'I', the mind as not 'I' and I am not able to proceed further. M.: Well, that is so far as the intellect goes. Your process is only intellectual. Indeed, all the scriptures mention the process only to guide the seeker to know the Truth. The Truth cannot be directly pointed out. Hence this intellectual process. You see, the one who eliminates all the not I cannot eliminate the 'I'. To say 'I am not this' or 'I am that' there must be the 'I'. This 'I' is only the ego or the 'I'-thought. After the rising up of this 'I'-thought all other thoughts arise. The 'I'-thought is therefore the root-thought. If the root is pulled out all others are at the same time uprooted. Therefore seek the root 'I', question yourself "Who am I?''; find out its source. Then all these will vanish and the pure Self will remain ever. D.: How to do it? M.: The 'I' is always there - in deep sleep, in dream and in wakefulness. The one in sleep is the same as that who now speaks. There is always the feeling of 'I'. Otherwise do you deny your existence? You do not. You say 'I am'. Find out who is. D.: Even so, I do not understand. 'I', you say, is the wrong 'I' now. How to eliminate this wrong 'I'? M.: You need not eliminate the wrong 'I'. How can 'I' eliminate itself? - All that you need do is to find out its origin and abide there. Your efforts can extend only thus far. Then the Beyond will take care of itself. You are helpless there. No effort can reach it. D.: If 'I' am always-here and now, why do I not feel so? M.: That is it. Why says it is not felt? Does the real 'I' say it or the false 'I'? Examine it. You will find it as the wrong 'I'. The wrong 'I' is the obstruction. It has to be removed in order that the true 'I' may not be hidden. The feeling that I have not realised is the obstruction to realisation. In fact it is already realised; there is nothing more to be realised. Otherwise, the realisation will be new; it has not existed so far, it must take place hereafter. What is born will also die. If realisation be not eternal it is not worth having. Therefore what we seek is not that which must happen afresh. It is only that which is eternal but not now known due to obstructions; it is that we seek. All that we need do is to remove the obstruction. That which is eternal is not known to be so because of ignorance. Ignorance is the obstruction. Get over this ignorance and all will be well. The ignorance is identical with the 'I'-thought. Find its source and it will vanish. The 'I'-thought is like a spirit which, although not palpable, rises up automatically with the body, flourishes and disappears with it. The body-consciousness is the wrong 'I'. Give up this body-consciousness. It is done by seeking the source 'I'. The body does not say 'I am'. It is you who say, 'I am the body!' Find out who this 'I' is. Seeking its source it will vanish. D.: Then, will there be bliss? M.: Bliss is coeval with Being-Consciousness . All the arguments relating to the eternal Being of that Bliss apply to Bliss also. Your nature is Bliss. Ignorance is not hiding that Bliss. Remove the ignorance for Bliss to be freed. D.: Should we not find out the ultimate reality of the world, individual and God? M.: These are all conceptions of the 'I'. They arise only after the advent of the 'I'-thought. Did you think of them in your deep sleep? You existed in deep sleep and the same you are now speaking. If they be real should they not be in your sleep also? They are only dependent upon the 'I'-thought. Again does the world tell you 'I am the world'? Does the body say 'I am body'? You say, "This is the world'', "this is body'' and so on. So these are only your conceptions. Find out who you are and there will be an end of all your doubts. D.: What becomes of the body after realisation? Does it exist or not? We see realised beings acting like others. M.: This question need not arise now. Let it be asked after realisation, if need be. As for the realised beings let them take care of themselves. Why do you worry about them? In fact, after realisation the body and all else will not appear different from the Self. D.: Being always Being-Consciousness -Bliss, why does God place us in difficulties? Why did He create us? M.: Does God come and tell you that He has placed you in difficulties? It is you who say so. It is again the wrong 'I'. If that disappears there will be no one to say that God created this or that. That which is does not even say 'I am'. For, does any doubt rise 'I am not'? Only in such a case should one be reminding oneself 'I am a man'. One does not. On the other hand, if a doubt arises whether he is a cow or a buffalo he has to remind himself that he is not a cow, etc., but 'I am a man'. This would never happen. Similarly with one's own existence and realisation. 23rd January, 1937http://www.beezone. com/Ramana/ Era Best Jokes, Best Friends, Best Food. Get all this and more on Best of . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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